OT - Politics, Religion... the taboos

I know this is WAY off topic of cycling... and I don't open this discussion to offend. We played a bit with the politics of the current war (Irac) in another thread.

I broach this topic because I so respect the views of all of you.

I've just watched the Showtime special "Our Fathers" about the Catholic pedophilia scandal. Let me preface with I am not Catholic. My partner is. I live in the Boston area.

I am gay.

The sociatal backlash has been on homosexuality in the priesthood. My issue is pedophilia and homosexuality are two very distinct issues. A homosexual is not a pedophile. A pedophile is not a homosexual. Statisticly most pedophiles are straight men.

As a "homosexual", I would never, have never wanted, needed, lusted after a child, nor has anyone I know in the gay community, male or female.

Y'all kinda know me. I don't start these "serious" topics on a whim.

What are your views? There are lots of moms here... I assume a certain percentage of Catholics... not that I believe pedophilia is restricted to the Catholic religion.

Victims, friends of victims, how far do the circles of this particular pebble flow?

spazz

Hey umm ... I'm not catholic either, in fact I'm not anything but a heterosexual? woman with a fairly strong sex drive. My theory on the catholic pedophiles is that since their religious doctrine denies them an outlet for their normal human sexuality that they kinda just snap and um... Well... kids are available, easy to intimidate or how ever they manipulate them???? It would be interesting to know "if " were the preists allowed openly to express their normal sexuality would the rate of child molestation go down? They are human beings with all the same weakness after all . There will always be perverts where ever there are kids. ( sad but true )I am fairly sure that if you locked me up in a female prison for the rest of my life or for that matter a good long while ( whatever that is LOL ) I would probably get real interested in the ladies. like I said I have a fairly strong sex drive ( like most men Hmmmm? ) Masurbation is fun but does lack a critical element of human contact.....P.S call me liberal " GASP! but I don't have a problem with homosexuality in fact I think It might just be a normal expression of one persons love and attraction to another.Pedophilia on the other hand is not cosentual sex, it is molestation and rape (big diffrence.)

Mum here - age range currently 7yrs - 17 yrs

There is no way I have ever associated homosexuality and paedophilia as intrinsically linked

My teenagers have brought home gay teenage friends of both genders and at no time have I considered my younger children as being in any "danger" despite numerous rough-housing games

Most of my kids have also had a gay teacher at some time or other (and that is just the teachers I have known about) and at no time have I been concerned or "afraid" for their safety... in fact, one of the teachers was the most creative and in tune with kids that they have ever had!

People who get the two "issues" or "ways of being" confused are archaic dinosaurs who cannot admit to themselves that there are many ways of being human, and the safety of our children comes down to morals and mental health and any link to gender preference is purely coincidental.

Spazz, I know you can't 'catch' gayness, can't 'make' or 'turn' someone gay...
THEY (who make such ill-informed, judegmental and innaccurate statements) are dinosaurs, are blind, are crazy, and should shut their mouths REAL tight.

I don't trust any religion that disempowers a minority, and the history of Catholisicism is not a healthy one regarding women or the 'uneducated'. I believe the fault lies with the fear of sexuality within the hierarchy of the church. Gayness or non-gayness is completely irrelevant to the issue of someone being a paedophile.

The father of my son's best friend went and laid himself in front of a train the day the local preist molestation scandal broke in the newspaper. He was a victim as were many men in his circle. His wife is a very brave woman: she has been very forthcoming and public about her husbands abuse and the lack of accountability by the church. She was on Macniel/Lehrer a few months ago, anyone catch it? ( one of those PBS news shows) She is one of the main plaintiffs in the lawsuit against the diocese, which of course has declared bankrupcy.

Me - angry about the continutal assosciation between pedophiles and gayness which is just wrong. Spokane is the home of the local mayorial scandal which doesn't help. It is good to see that people are seperating the sexualtiy from the abuse of power issues. While I am not gay, having being raised by two closeed until I was almost an adult gay people gives me a comfrotableness with it that I think some people lack. There were problems in my home but it was due to bad behavior and not inherent sexuality of my parnets.

more later, have to go rafting.

a good book on abuse of power in the church is called The God Game.

I didn't see or TIVO the film. Struck a nerve, Sapzz?

$0.50 tour of me, Gay and out forever - over 30 years, no kids that I know of, 2 neices and 1 nephew all grown, Jewish but not observant and some of my best friends and all of my ex'es are Catholic. Hmmmm.

I am sick of generalizations like blaming societies ills on "drug addicts, accordion players, and homosexuals..." but I think that most people "get it" today that child molesters and LGBT people are totally different.

In todays political environment there are those who use fear based arguments "the gays and lesbians are coming, lock up the women and children, protect your marriage!" and I'm just not gonna go there about that.

Just speaking personaly gimme a break. I like kids and kids like me but I simply can't imagine any sexual interest in a child and more important I think there is a special place in hell for anyone who'd hurt a child.

Don't get me started...I think I'd better go for a bike ride now.

Thanks for all the input.

I know films are films, i.e. stuff gets "dramatized" or "sensationalized", but this film did strike a chord. Living here outside Boston I was inundated with the news accounts and then watching this film... it's all so sad.

I didn't reference my own sexual orientation for any reason other than to point out that, for me, hearing the uneducated or ill informed blame the abuse on "gay" priests made me nuts. These men weren't gay - they were/are predators. They could've had relations with persons their own age had they so chosen.

The Vatican could've handled the entire thing differently...

And of course, in my ideal little world, there is no war or hunger :rolleyes:

Let's use this thread for those taboo subjects one doesn't discuss over dinner... I am interested in and value your input. And thanks to Admin for allowing this thread to keep flying.

spazz

Me? I don't believe in any god. I'm 37 and stay at home with my 2 year old boy and 9 and 12 year old step-daughters. I'm an artistic, straight, introverted, boring mid-american woman and I miss mom's homemade macaroni and cheese and buttermilk pancakes which I make but never turn out as good.

Gay and straight seem the exact same to me, just the preference in opposite vs. same sex is the difference. If I am incorrect in this someone please tell me and give me reasons, thoughts and ideas as to why so I can ponder. I would never think of one or the other to be more likely to be pedophiliacs individually. As a whole, it seems there would be more straight pedophiles based sheerly on number.

I sure wish people would worry about more important things than which consenting adult enjoys the companionship of which other consenting adult.

I cannot believe priests could find any right in using any child in a sexual manner. They certainly have the opportunity put before them as authoritarian figures to these boys but how can they commit such heinous acts?? I can see how a boy would feel they had to go along with what these people who they've been taught to revere wish of them-but how can a priest abuse his power in this manner above all??? I was about to ask if they really believe they are not committing a gay act because of the age of their same-sex partners but I don't want any of you to think I think pedophilia is a gay act because IT IS NOT!! Yes, some changes do need to be made in the chuch so that priests can find their adult pleasures-with ADULTS!! That or castrate them, though my humpy little boy dog doesn't seem to notice a lack of testicles in the slightest so I don't know if this works or not.

My step-daughter's 3rd grade teacher is gay and the best teacher she's had thus far. He's gifted with his kids and has been recognized by the state for his good work. I would be honored to have him teach my son as well-he's quite good at it. His ability has nothing to do with his orientation as is true of people straight and gay world over.

I'm also a straight athiest, but I frequent a homesteading forum with many *very* religious folk on it. Some of these people also seem to share the archiac view of that video. Then again, it may just seem that way because they spend so much time preaching about how being gay in a SIN (their caps lol). Man, I gotta feel for the gay and bi people on that board with such narrow-mindedness afoot there!

I don't think the priests are using these children because they are gay, I think it is just a power trip, same as rape with adults. They use children because they don't struggle and are easier to brainwash.

I was raised catholic. I'll be recovering for the rest of my life! heh

Some of the priests were stern, some caring, some scary, some creepy, some seemed invicible....I can see how a kid from yesteryear could be awed enough by the priest and all he symbolized to actually feel special because of the priests sickening advances....but that's how these things work. they are complicated, disgusting, horrific acts.

The thought that a homosexual man is more likely to be a pedofile is beyond any logic that a sane human being could use.

The catholic rule of celibacy is matched in some other religions as well, Even a yogi can choose to become celibate in order to harness the energy of his or her sexuality into transcendant inner peace. However, in catholicisim it has always appeared to be (I haven't been through the training, so this is an assumption) simply a matter of denial. An unenlightened sacrifice does not necessarily make a soul more perfect....if the person has no way to deal with the denial, no outlet of any kind, the mind can twist it into something very sick. DH just had a great idea....they could take all these celibate priests, and make a super fast catholic cycling team! All that pent up sexual energy would make them smoking fast!! :p

It's a sick world we live in. some of the creatures in it are sicker than others. In an ideal world, the organizations we are part of would provide us all with the necessary guidance to be perfect human beings in whatever circumstances we find ourselves.

Darnit, though, they don't!!

Peace and love to all of you,
Namaste,
~T~

OK, spent a day paddle rafting and I'm back.... hacked that other post out way to early in the am yesterday.

I think that some church's unwillingness to allow non-celibate behaviors, or to not allow women to participate comes goes very far back to the origins of some religions. The point was made about celibacy of a way concentraing spritual power,which is a universal practice. However in this day and age I think that is misplaced for some religions. The history of the priesthood needs to be looked at in a historical context too : both in the how the priest hood was used to replace other, older religious forms, and how it was taught that it is only through a priest that you can have access to God. Talk about a set up for power abuse!!!
The church's documented attempts at covering up preist abuse is evil of the highest kind IMO.

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Originally Posted by spazzdog

My issue is pedophilia and homosexuality are two very distinct issues. A homosexual is not a pedophile. A pedophile is not a homosexual. Statisticly most pedophiles are straight men.

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This issue really touches home. My oldest son is homosexual and I absolutely detest when people somehow connect homosexuality with pedophilia. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

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Originally Posted by LBTC

I was raised catholic. I'll be recovering for the rest of my life! heh
~T~

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LOL, this reminded me of a Billy Connelly show, he said " I went to a Catholic School - I majored in guilt"

Seriously though. Its not just priests who are guilty of this - It happens with people in a position of power... school teachers, cub scout leaders, doctorsetc... They may or may not be gay, but they do have issues with power and they do prey on the vulnerable.

Sometimes the vulnerable are young children, sometimes they are teenagers, sometimes they are the elderly and sometimes they are women.

Too often, rape or other sexual abuse is about power and control, not about sex... and like we all agree, sexual preference or tendancies has little to do with breaking moral, ethical or legal laws.

I am a survivor of rape (note - survivor, not victim) and if anyone did something remotely similar to one of my children, I am sure my response would be extreme, even if I had to bide my time.

RoadRaven "Its not just priests who are guilty of this - It happens with people in a position of power... school teachers, cub scout leaders, doctorsetc... They may or may not be gay, but they do have issues with power and they do prey on the vulnerable."

yep yep, in the martial art I do, the first teacher I had and I trained with him from about 1979-83. I got too busy with college and stopped training for a couple years then came back to training, and he was gone, his assistant instructors headed the school.

Wha' happened?

It had been found due to some brave kids coming forward that he'd been abusing kids in the kids classes (just the girls). this was found out to be true and he was confronted and in an unprecedented move the head of our style stripped him of rank and forbade him to even train! I'm sure it was heart-wrenching for Saito Sensei because this guy was the favorite student.

But it had to be done and in the end he did the right thing.

Occaisionaly we hear rumor that he's somewhere leading a class or trying to train. But always seems like rumor. Recently he did show up at a dojo (school) in CA and was quickly recognised "oh, you. We've heard about you" and was quickly and simply presented with a letter, aparently there is a formal letter that he can not train anywhere ever again.

In a way I feel sorry for the guy, such a waste of talent. He was my teacher after all. Supremely talented, gifted but at minimum he's deeply flawed and possibly downright evil. I'm sure he knows that if not for that he'd be a master instructor by this time. Oh well.

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Originally Posted by Trek420

In a way I feel sorry for the guy, such a waste of talent. He was my teacher after all. Supremely talented, gifted but at minimum he's deeply flawed and possibly downright evil. I'm sure he knows that if not for that he'd be a master instructor by this time. Oh well.

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I would never, ever feel sorry for someone who makes a choice to use their power/position inappropriately no matter how much supposed "talent" is being thrown away. How many abusers have had people make concessions because they were only caught once, they were an asset to the business or community in other ways, or they had a lapse in judgement or any of 10000 other excuses that charismatic abusers get away with. He made the decision to do the things he did, no one forced him or coerced him, unlike his victims.

Irulan

poor choice of words on my part...First of all I've never understood why no legal action was not taken at the time, why he's not in jail .... or worse. As far as I know nobody sued, prosecuted...

I wasn't around the school when the "fit hit the shan" but I don't think there is a statute of limitations on this heinious (sp?) crime and even if there is it would not have been passed then.

The fact that it's around a martial art is most deeply deeply disturbing to me. that's the whole thing with power and the implication to a kid ... I'm surprised the guy is still on the planet.

and no I don't think pedophiles could ever ever change, rehabilitate whatever you want to call it, some people just take up space and oxygen on the planet that could better be used by others or ferns or whatever.

Okay, I'm chiming in, now. I grew up Catholic, but converted to Protestantism a long time ago. I am one who does not view pedophiles as homosexuals and vice versa.

I have to say that I do feel somewhat sorry for those who perpetrate crimes. We are all operating from some level of damage. Some of us are more damaged than others. Some of the severely damaged can go on to lead very healthy lives. Some cannot. I don't know if that is a matter of choice or a matter of frailty, but I don't think it's up to me to decide that. All who have been hurt have my compassion. Yes, I feel angry when I hear about someone being subjected to violence or abuse. It turns my gut. I do believe there is evil in the world, but I believe it's kind of a trickle-down effect, if that makes any sense at all.

This is not to say that I don't think people should be held responsible for their actions. We most certainly should be. However, I still feel badly for everyone involved. And I am thankful for the grace that has been bestown upon me by others all my life. I've needed all of it that I've gotten and then some!!

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Originally Posted by slinkedog

And I am thankful for the grace that has been bestown upon me by others all my life.

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I like that. It just struck a chord for some reason. Me - I thank god - or whoever is in charge - that I have it so good. I don't know how I got to this place, or if I deserve it, but I'm awfully thankful to be here.

V.

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Originally Posted by Veronica

I like that. It just struck a chord for some reason. Me - I thank god - or whoever is in charge - that I have it so good. I don't know how I got to this place, or if I deserve it, but I'm awfully thankful to be here.

V.

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Well said, V.

I hear you... I thank the gods that I am only a little crazy when I see what all the other crazies are doing.

As to molestation/rape not being about sex, I agree. It's all about power, control, intimidation.

I'm kind of "show no mercy" on the punishment of these folks though. That goes for priests, doctors lawyers, indian chiefs or Cardinals of the church. Either shoot 'em or throw them into gen pop in a prison sooner than later. Child molesters last about 2 wks in prison, if they're lucky.

spazz

well said both V and Slink. Both posts remind me of a Carribean family saying from a friend of mine, goes a little something like this "don't envy other peoples burdens because what they carry lightly might break your back".

You never know what others have gone through, though their lives may look charmed or very lucky.

Homosexual does not equal pedophile. One is an expression of love/desire between two adults, the other is the crime of rape. And pedophilia happens to boys and girls. Almost always by men. So instead of homosexual = pedophile maybe we should say male = pedophile. Well that sounds ridiculous doesn't it? Because it is!!!

I am straight, and -shhhh don't tell - liberal. Yet I find myself suddenly in the South. Talk about a fish out of water. When I read the newspaper I am frightened every day. The politicians here not only say outrageous religious right ****, but they are proud to say it and face NO Backlash. From anyone!

They regularly say stuff like, "Well they may think homosexuality is ok in NY, but down here we think it's a sin". "And so is nudity". These are real quotes. This whole country voted for the religious right agenda and that scares me too.

Question, how could gay marriage, in any way shape or form, ruin the sanctity of my straight marriage? These people are paranoid, probably closeted homosexuals, and persecuting others in the name of god. That karma is hopefully going to come around and bite them in the ***.

Anyway, thats just my opinion. That and $3.00 will get you something at starbucks.

Here in the UK a woman doctor who worked and lived in a very poor, deprived area had slogans written all over her front door by a raging mob. They thought she was a paedophile. Actually she was a paediatrician.

Education, education, education - that's what's needed.

doc "Question, how could gay marriage, in any way shape or form, ruin the sanctity of my straight marriage?"

Sanctity? 50% of marriages end in divorce, domestic violence from and to either gender-that ruins the sanctity of marriage, child abuse, reality tv like The Bachelor and Who Wants to Marry a Milionaire? Oh yeah, it's sacred all right.

And stand back, huge generalization here and I'm kidding, and you know my sense of humor by now. I think the gay community should simply bow out of the institution of marriage till we can participate.

We can't do this, ok fine, not helping you either.

A few months of cakes from Walmart, hair from Billy-Bob's house of big hair, dresses from Target, plastic flowers from Longs, catering from ... not that we have an exclusive on these things ;-)

Okay, I'll stick my nose in here one more time. I am a Christian and I will tell you there's little that bothers me more than when someone who claims to be a disciple of Jesus Christ uses their belief in him as a reason to be hateful toward others.

The other thing that bothers me a lot is when people demean those who don't agree with them, whether it be in terms of ideology, faith, or lifestyle. I see it on both sides of the coin, conservative and liberal, and it is quite troubling to me. People are different from each other. They have differing beliefs and ways of living their lives. They may be educated or illiterate. They may be wealthy or poor, young or old, gay or straight. When did it become okay to dehumanize people because of where they're at? We're all on our journeys. Can't we love someone even if we don't agree with everything they believe or do?

Okay, there's my 2 cents.

Slinke, you said exactly what I was thinking but just couldn't figure out how to put it into words. I'm also a Christian and there are lots of things in the world today that I believe are wrong, but I also believe that judging others is wrong. Just because I don't agree with a persons lifestyle doesn't mean I have to discriminate them. I have to love them as Jesus would.

tatormc & Slinke, you both took the words from my mouth. I'm just a lil' Jewish gal from Petaluma and I don't know anything about religion but my impression from my little knowlege of Christianity that's kinda the whole point.

I can't quote scripture and won't try to but I got the impression "judge not lest ye be...." "let he who is without..." "love the sinner hate the shoes" oops, wrong book on that last one etc.

Fact is most of the worlds great religions have that in common, the Golden Rule.

I kinda like that about your religion! And it seems to me that folks who get that are MORE Christian not less. You want fire and brimstone and eternal pillar of salt that's my folks department.

Well, nuff said, I've gotta find a taxi to Day 1 for a group of riders. I expect when I get back TE will have this whole issue solved along with world peace and global warming.

I've been given some hammer gel, never tried it. I'm told not to change diet or anything before a long ride. Oops, this is the OT thread so can't talk about cycling here like what people think of hammer gel. That would be OT OT. :cool: :rolleyes: ;)

I was raised Catholic...majored in guilt! ;) (heard that somewhere thought it was cute) Anyway, I have been hesistent to post my opinion, and that is what it is-- my opinion. I say this because sometimes i go off on little tangents. I do agree with all of you, homosexuals DO NOT in anyway equal pediophiles! I do believe that most all religions (or at least the people practicing them)are judgemental and hypocritical. I think that people pick and choose the pieces of the bible they can use to justify their hate. (not everyone does this, try not to misunderstand my soap box) First, if homosexuality is a sin as some translations in Leviticus claim, then lets refer to some other passages in Leviticus..."you shall not eat pork or shellfish" "women shall not shave thier legs and men their beards" "you can not cut your hair", and the list goes on (You should be stoned to death for most of these infractions). I am not claiming to be a expert on the Bible, religion, or Leviticus, in fact I try to stay as far away from the "saved" as possible. I just bring this up to show how people pick and choose the pieces of the bible they want to in order to justify their hate. So ultimately, we would all be sinners if people weren't pulling what they didnt "agree" with out of the bible and using it aganist everyone else.
"Just because I don't agree with a persons lifestyle doesn't mean I have to discriminate them. I have to love them as Jesus would." This is a quote from the forum that struck a nerve. Homosexuals are not asking anyone to agree with "thier lifestyle." In fact, science has proven it is not a choice. Just like science proved that the sun did not revolve around the earth, but the earth around the sun. Gailieo was almost beheaded for saying that, but got life in prison instead. So off with my head, until I am pardoned. But the bible said it, so it must be true! (sarcasm :rolleyes: )
My bottom line is: The God I known is a kind God. He doesn't care what color we are, what size we are, or where we live, who we live with or who we love. I know that the bible was written a VERY LONG time ago, and I think that if they knew all the advancements science has shown parts of the bible to be incorrect, they might have put in foot notes..."oh yeah...it is ok to change with the times." Because loving and treating people, all people, like you would treat yourself was probably the main message they were trying to get across. "Love one another."

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Originally Posted by CycleGiant3

I do believe that most all religions are judgemental and hypocritical. I think that people pick and choose the pieces of the bible they can use to hate. (not everyone, try not to misunderstand my soap box) First, if homosexuality is a sin, then lets refer to Leviticus..."you shall not eat pork or shellfish" "women shall not shave thier legs and men their beards" "you can not cut your hair", and the list goes on. I am not claiming to be a expert on the Bible, religion, or Leviticus, in fact I try to stay as far away from the "saved" as possible. It just proves my point about picking and choosing the pieces of the bible they decide to hate.

Just like science proved that the sun did not revolve around the earth, but the earth around the sun. Gailieo was almost beheaded for saying that, but got life in prison instead. So off with my head, until I am pardoned. But the bible said it, so it must be true! (sarcasm :rolleyes: )

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CycleGiant... let me begin here by saying that I totally believe you are entitled to your opinion, and that's what makes America a good place to be, geographically and politically speaking.

However, I have to take exception with what I feel is a gross misrepresentation of Mosaic law, how it pertains to us after the coming of the Christ, and how the different books of the bible hang together. My thoughts on the subject are going off in 12 different directions so let's just suffice it to say that it seems to me that a lot of people judge the bible by the people who claim it as the basis for their belief system, which is a totally reasonable action, imo. I just wish people didn't screw things up so badly, me included. ;)

I wholeheartedly agree with you that God loves each and every one of His children and that we are to treat one another accordingly.

[QUOTE=slinkedog]I will tell you there's little that bothers me more than when someone who claims to be a disciple of Jesus Christ uses their belief in him as a reason to be hateful toward others.

QUOTE]

Slinke-
This is basically what I meant as well. Additionally, it upsets me when I feel that people use the Bible to justify their hate. You just said it a little better.

Preface - I don't care what religion one chooses, be you born into or born again, converted or no religion at all. As long as the interpretation of "God's Word" hasn't been twisted, turned and baked into a crazy cookie, I have no issue.

However, the group from somewhere in ho-dunk America that is traveling around the states protesting this that and the other thing is making me a little tense. Yes, they're geting their bowels in an uproar over gays... but you know what? That's not what bothers me.

What bothers me is the places they are choosing to vomit their bile. First an elementary school because an 8 yr old wrote a paper about Ellen Degenerous (I don't think the paper even mentioned she was gay).

Today or tomorrow these wack jobs will be at the funeral of a fallen soldier (hold on to your keyboards) because they believe 9/11 was gods punishment for Americas support of gays, thus the soldiers are dying to support the "homosexual lifestyle".

Like I said, it's not the gay thing... god knows I've heard worse in my lifetime. What's scary is if you take out the word homosexual and plug in anything else (black, latin, female, jew) you have the makings of some of the worst periods in history... all started by little fanatic cells of people, that grew and grew and grew.

I understand and support freedom of speech and freedom of religion, but there has got to be a way to prevent "inappropriate" locations. I mean, a funeral service is no place for a bunch of yelling, screaming protestors - whatever their platform.

spazz - going for coffee :eek:

spazzdog "there has got to be a way to prevent "inappropriate" locations. I mean, a funeral service is no place for a bunch of yelling, screaming protestors - whatever their platform."

Since eating shellfish is also an "abomination" they chould picket, yell and scream in front of Red Lobster when it's 30 shrimp for 10 bucks night, or at Arts Crab Shack.

Heading out the door for work so I don't have time to mull over my thoughts but I'm against the war, against all wars or think war should be the very very last resort but I sooooooooo support our troups.

And to add this to the grief of the families is so wrong.

Trek those who forget the past are bound to repeat it 420

I haven't read all of the other posts yet so this comment might have already been made. As I am not catholic I don't know this information but isn't it true that boys make up most of the altar boys or other areas in church? If so, then that is the only reason that the priests abused boys. Pedophilia is a crime of opportunity and manipulation so it stands to reason that it was boys not girls abused because the priests had more of an opportunity with boys and not girls. It doesn't make the preists gay because they chose boys to prey on, they just had more of an opportunity to prey on these boys.

[QUOTE=Justina] My theory on the catholic pedophiles is that since their religious doctrine denies them an outlet for their normal human sexuality that they kinda just snap and um... Well... kids are available, easy to intimidate or how ever they manipulate them????

I think some become priests hoping to be cured, others because the children they want will be available, others, as you describe, give in to temptation while living a life that is unnatural for them. I doubt there is a single, predominate reason why priests do this stuff

In my little value system:
Pedophilia is an abomination.
Covering up the crimes of others makes one an accessory.
Being gay has nothing to do with pedohilia or protecting pedohiles.

I totally agree, Being gay has nothing to do with pedophilia. The monsters that prey upon children do it not because of a certain sexual orientation but because of the weakness of children. These person are weak themselves and molesting children is the only way they can dominant.

I believe somewhat that many of these men have gone into the priesthood because they had a belief this was a way to cut off their deviant sexual fantasies and desires. The priesthood teaches discipline and these men were seeking control over their feelings. The problem of course is that it actually placed them in a position to act on their feelings. Everyone trusts priest. People trust them with their children. Children are taught at an early age to respect and trust a priest. Long story short, molestations occurred and it was so wrong for the Church to allow these men to go unpunished.

If I have another criticizm of the Catholic Church, it's that they place too much power in their priests. Priests are just men, not any different from any other man. Although clergy should be respected, they do not stand above any one person, we are all equal (this includes gays and straights) in the eyes of God. As men, priest have the ability to sin and the Church body needs to wake up and realize this. What self-respecting parent would allow their sons (and daughters) to go off on over night camping trips etc with a 40 year old guy and no one else. Because he is a priest it's OK? We all have the ability to sin. What the fear of God does is keep us from acting on temptation and those desires. It's hard, even for the most discipline among us.

if you read the details, plenty of women have been abused by priests too. It may not be the same deal as pedophilia, but it's certainly poeple with power taking advantage of other's vulnerablitlies.

irulan

Spazz:

Getting into the gay/straight thing... I'm straight, like being straight, will be nothing other than straight. I am also a conservative Evangelical Christian which means I have a literally belief in the bible.

OK that said, on both sides of the coin, there are people who choose to past judgement on other people. I realize there are "bible-thumpers" that give all us Christians a bad name. Say you are a conservative Christian and almost everyone thinks I like Jerry Falwell. I don't and he doesn't represent the majority of Christian any more that Rev. Jesse Jackson speaks for Afro-Americans. In addition, I realize that overly flamboyant, lisping gays do not represent that vast majority of the gay community. They are, however, a very vocal, and intolerant group of people, not any different then Falwell's followers.

I do have a belief system. It is that marriage is a Christian ideal. Marriage is a commitment between a man and a woman under the moral and idealogy that is taught by my Christian faith. Does this mean that only a man and a woman could make a commitment to each other? Of course not. I truly believe most states should allow civil commitment ceremonies for gays and straights (obviously there are straight people who do not want to be married in a Church).

I'm divorced. That means I cannot morally engage in sex unless I am in committed relationship with a man. The same applies to the gay community. What I think has upset many Christians is the casualness that some gays (and I realize many gays are in monogamous, long term relationships there is nothing wrogn with that) engage in sex. That's just wrong, no matter who you are. Does that mean I've never had a one night stand? No, I've sinned. I'm human so not perfect and will continue to sin the rest of my life but as a Christian, I'm trying to do better; to be a better person. I do know and understand that casual sex is wrong.

God is a kind God, but he is also a very strick parent. The rules are set (i.e. 10 commandments and the bible) and he asks that we follow them. Failure to do so will lead to punishment (ie rejection from the Kingdom of Heaven). But we do have the choice to reject his rules. We just need to realize there is a consequence.

Not trying to preach here. Just stating my opinion. And everyone has had great input. I appreciate the candor and opportunity to discuss some serious topics, away from cycling (yes there are other things in life than bikes).

Spazz, I think I know what group you are talking about. Fred Phelps is the leader I believe. I remember them hanging around the Pride Festival a couple of years ago. Very mean hearted people, nothing Christian about them. Their website is enought to make you vomit.

They also hate the country of Sweden :eek: not quite sure of the reasoning. They claim the tsunami in Indonesia was God's wrath upon the evil Swedes. (Evidently a lot of swedish people take holiday in Indonesia)

You may be right Snap... him and 8-12 very mean spirited and seemingly uneducated people using supposed gospel to support their platform.

A class act all the way... :mad:

Oh! That Fred Phelps guy makes me ashamed to call myself a Christian because he gets so much media coverage that I'm afraid that people think that's what we're all like. I know I was talking earlier about accepting everyone at the point they're at in their journey, but I seriously want to beat that guy up. I think they have a name for those people... oh yeah... insane psycho freaks, to quote the new version of "Freaky Friday," which, by the way, is a very fun movie and I encourage all of you to see it. ;)

snapdragen sez "They also hate the country of Sweden :eek: not quite sure of the reasoning."

Maybe he's Norwegian? I hear there's no love lost between the two neighboring countries :cool: