Organic vs Non-Organic

So, I've been thinking (dangerous)....

In light of the new facts that the USDA inspects a tiny percent of food, how do we know that organic is really organic? I noted that at Trader Joe's, some of their organic produce comes from Mexico. How do we, the consumers, really know that it is organic?

I've been a supporter of organics for years. Since the economy is so bad, I'm having to rethink my food dollars. I hate to think that I'm spending big $$$ for organic food that isn't.

What does everybody think?

My dad swears up & down that regulations allow for food to be treated with chemicals a certain number of times and still be labled as "organic."

I take it with a grain of salt though, because he's made his entire living off of selling agricultural-use chemicals.

I buy from local farmers markets and farms whenever possible. They are not always certified organic, but you can talk to the farmer and many of them use organic methods. That's a little harder in the winter.

I also grow alot of my own food--at a minimum lettuce and greens (collards, kale, chard). I'm building a cold frame in hopes that I can grow salad greens all winter, and collards and kale grow here in winter (or rather they stay, they don't necessarily grow).

Even if food is "organic," if it's grown in New Zealand and shipped to Virginia, I figure I can do alot better from a closer source.

it's like with speed limits.

quality or safety testing in any industry is done on a sample - you can't test everything.

There are regulatory bodies and testing labs. Even in Mexico or if anyone ever found out they would be unable to export, costing them $$$$.

You either trust in the way these regulations work, just as you trust that every other business does not screw you over, although they only get inspected/QC periodically (filthy restaurant kitchens, faulty carbon frames, ...) or you don't and buy regular (which is subject to some restrictions too).

yes, it's true that you can still use certain sprays or other stuff on organic products. copper on wine, for example.

I found quality issues with some things at Trader Joes, so we don't shop there quite as much. The fresh fruit and vegetables are one thing we stopped buying there. My local Raleys has much better produce and they seem to have a connection to the local farms because they have often have produce from them.

We've looked into how things get labeled. What does free range or organic really mean? There seems to be a lack of consistency in how those labels get applied, that's for sure.

Veronica

Aren't there third-party certification organizations that are active in the USA? There are one or two that are particularly trustworthy in Canada (just can't remember their name). The "organic" label is not controlled by a government agency around here...

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Originally Posted by Andrea

My dad swears up & down that regulations allow for food to be treated with chemicals a certain number of times and still be labled as "organic."

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You dad is right, to an extent. I'd have to research the details but the definition of 'organic' has been somewhat watered-down.

For better environment, I think it's better to eat locally first and then organically if you can't find the item locally. There's a book call "100 miles diet". http://100milediet.org/ It basically talks about the benefit of eat locally and the couple's journey in one year of eating nothing but locally grown food.

There are items that I have no problem eating non-organic when it needs to (ie. oranges) just because I can peel the skin off. But other food such as potoatoes should be organic when you can. I can't be sure but I heard that non-organic pototo farmers use Round-Up to kill off the leaves before harvest. They say this helps "cure" the potoatoes and makes the skin tougher for transport and storage. I think that's freaking scary!

I too grow my own food when possible. There's many books out there that helps you plan for winter gardening. "Four Season Harvest" by Eliot Coleman comes to mind. And BONUS! Food actually taste better! For those who don't like veggies. Wait until you have a freshly harvest tomoto or pick figs off the tree. Oh my! Oh and organic bananas! WOW! that's all I have to say.

The eat local movement is environmentally friendly that is for sure. If you can establish a relationship with the market and find out about the pesticides used that is a bonus.

I grow many of my own vegetables too. It's the only way to know for sure.

Some advice I like to share. If you only buy one organic item- make it apples. Thin skin= more pesticide. I never buy organic bananas cause I peel the thick skin.

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Originally Posted by Grog

Aren't there third-party certification organizations that are active in the USA? There are one or two that are particularly trustworthy in Canada (just can't remember their name). The "organic" label is not controlled by a government agency around here...

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Yes, there's "organic" and then there's "certified organic" which are two different things. There are several national and regional organizations that do organic certification.

There's lots more than these links out there, it's an easy enough topic to google.

USDA on organic certificationlink

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Certification and Labeling of Organic Foods

According to regulations set forth by the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA), organic foods must come from farms or ranches certified by a state or private agency that has been accredited by the USDA. Foods labeled "100 percent organic" must contain only organically produced ingredients, excluding water and salt. Foods labeled "organic" must contain, by weight, at least 95 percent organically produced ingredients. Products meeting these requirements must display these terms on their principal display panel and may use the USDA seal and the seal or mark of certifying agents on packages and in advertisements. Foods labeled "made with organic ingredients" must contain, by weight, at least 70 percent organic ingredients. Up to three separate organic ingredients may be listed on the principal display label, and a certifying agent's seal or mark may be used on the package. The use of a USDA seal is prohibited, however. Livestock can be certified "organic" if they have been raised on organic foodstuffs for over one year.

Other labeling provisions include:

* Packaging of any product labeled "organic" must state the actual percentage of organic ingredients and use the word "organic" to modify each organically produced ingredient.
* The name and address of the certifying agent must be displayed on the label's information panel.
* There are no restrictions on the use of truthful labeling claims, such as "pesticide free," "no drugs or growth hormones used," or "sustainably harvested."
* Products made with less than 50 percent organic ingredients may make no claim other than designating specific organic ingredients with the ingredient information.

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Originally Posted by arielmoon

The eat local movement is environmentally friendly that is for sure. If you can establish a relationship with the market and find out about the pesticides used that is a bonus.

I grow many of my own vegetables too. It's the only way to know for sure.

Some advice I like to share. If you only buy one organic item- make it apples. Thin skin= more pesticide. I never buy organic bananas cause I peel the thick skin.

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True... the banana skin is pretty thick. But try it anyway. I think it taste better and it store better too. :)

We shop at food co-ops and Whole Foods, and/or we buy from local farms that are well known in our area. The local farms, we're pretty clear on their practices so I have no concerns there, but that's mainly for meats, milk, eggs, etc (I also go for free range over organic, and grass-fed for cattle, and it's harder to certify organic meat when the animals are free range).

I don't actually know of any local produce farms that are certified organic or definitely use organic practices, so I trust my co-ops and Whole Foods to do the checking for me, and even then I look for stuff that's locally grown. I also put locally grown as higher priority than organic, so I'll buy hothouse tomatoes in the winter - organic if I can find them, but conventional if I can't - rather than organic tomatoes grown somewhere else.

Sidenote: If you look for free range eggs or chicken and you want real free range avoid anything that says all-vegetarian-fed, as this means they're not out picking at bugs and stuff.

I recently started ordering from this service :Farm Fresh Express. I love it. It's local, mostly organic, and they even have things like cleaners and lotions. In the last month I've already noticed the seasonal change in what's being offered. Several of the farms do hydroponics in the winter, so I'll be able to stick with it. The prices seem to be in line with what I'd pay at the store, too. I also found a really nice farmer's market last week, and it's open until December. As someone else posted, even if it's not "organtic" as my grandmother calls it, it's probably fairly similar if it's coming from a local grower. What's the point of buying organic if it's going to travel thousands of miles on a truck and lose the nutrients anyway? Yes it costs more, but I feel better about what I'm putting into me. And next summer my aunt's boyfriend promised me a spot in their garden, and he's going to show me the finer points of gardening. Plus they have chickens, so I get fresh eggs, too!:D

The thing about it is, my personal exposure to pesticides and GMOs is the very last reason for me to buy organic.

No. 1 in my opinion is environmental health. That encompasses a lot of things. Sustainable practices (not just a buzzword but a very real recognition that a lot of present-day farming methods, including some "certified organic" ones, are UN-sustainable, and will only be able to produce food on that particular parcel for a limited period of time). Biodiversity. Reducing runoff that destroys the health of waterways. Reducing petroleum dependence (strongly implicated in anhydrous ammonia production). Et cetera, et cetera.

No. 2 is farmworker health. If you live in an agricultural area for long, you'll meet or at least read about farmworkers who are suffering serious health consequences from exposure to pesticides and herbicides. Those stories don't make the national news, and there pretty much has to be a mass poisoning before even local news covers it. Because people just don't want to think about what their food really costs. Not just the long-term consequences in reproductive disorders and cancers, which are very significant, but also immediate things like serious skin, respiratory and immune system impairment. Someone was talking about child labor overseas being used to make their sporting goods... I prefer that my food and flowers be grown without poisoning children and adults right here in the USA.

It's true that the USDA organic standards are pretty loose, but they're not completely without value, especially when you're buying staples like beans and grains that can be very difficult to get locally in consumer quantities. I wish I knew more about which third party certifiers were more trustworthy, but generally I'm going to trust a state-level co-op like Oregon Tilth, CCOF or my local OEFFA, before I'll trust a giant for-profit certifier like QAI.

That's another reason to buy Eden Brand staples... which are getting increasingly difficult to find as huge agribusinesses move into the organic arena and buy out shelf space in the grocery chains, including the big "natural food" chains. Eden extensively and regularly tests their products for GMO and pesticide contamination, buys locally/regionally whenever possible.

Soil contamination is another reason to know what you're buying. Everybody catch the latest hoopla about the ayurvedic medications containing heavy metals that were taken up from the soil in which they were grown? Same thing with the coliform contamination of the leafy greens last year, only the contamination was from livestock feces. And whatever the Calabrian buffalo were contaminated with.

So... yes I do look for the organic label when I'm shopping at the grocery or natural food store or the florist. (I'm not ready to go 100% home grown yet... for one thing DH and I would have to resolve this little thing about his wanting to be gone half the year.) But it's by no means the only thing I look for.

if there's one thing to buy organic, it's tea.

I feel SO lucky that I have this available: http://www.spud.com (small potatoes urban delivery)

I get a weekly organic fruit/veggie box, plus some other groceries (they even have toilet paper!) which get delivered right to my door on Wednesdays. And despite the fact that each individual item is more expensive than my local grocery store, I end up spending *less* per week, because I tweak what I order to be just what I need, instead of impulse buying.

It also alerts you as to how far each item traveled and gives you an order average. While I am not down to the 100-mile radius, I do feel a bit better when I can swap out the bananas (from Mexico) with apples (from just down the street) and I don't feel deprived at all. They also have some (limited) local and organic meat selections.

I guess the point is: it makes organic and local really easy for me. I don't have to do a ton of research and work, and I don't have to go to the grocery store to boot.

If anyone wants to sign up, lemme know; I have a ton of referrer codes. :)

-- gnat!

Funny that y'all should bring this up, since I just did some research on what "organic" means to the FDA. Here's my blog post, for those interested:

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Fortunately, the FDA has already laid out a series of extremely involved organic food regulations that, with enough delving, answer the question. The regulations (7 CFR Part 205, for all you inquiring minds) state:

1. The term, “organic,” may only be used on labels and in labeling of raw or processed agricultural products, including ingredients, that have been produced and handled in accordance with the regulations in this part. The term, “organic,” may not be used in a product name to modify a nonorganic ingredient in the product.

2. "100% organic" must comprise entirely organic ingredients; just "organic," however, must have "not less than 95 percent organically produced raw or processed agricultural products."

3. To be sold or labeled as “100 percent organic,” “organic,” or “made with organic (specified ingredients or food group(s)),” the product must be produced and handled without the use of:

(a) Synthetic substances and ingredients, except as provided in §205.601 or §205.603;

(b) Nonsynthetic substances prohibited in §205.602 or §205.604;

(c) Nonagricultural substances used in or on processed products, except as otherwise provided in §205.605;

(d) Nonorganic agricultural substances used in or on processed products, except as otherwise provided in §205.606;

(e) Excluded methods, except for vaccines: Provided, That, the vaccines are approved in accordance with §205.600(a);

(f) Ionizing radiation, as described in Food and Drug Administration regulation, 21 CFR 179.26; and

(g) Sewage sludge

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Here's a link to my original blog post, which includes citations and links to the actual FDA regulations.

That said, buying local is probably almost as important as buying organic from an environmental standpoint. Plus, as has been pointed out, buying local means often you can talk to the farmers and get a sense of what goes onto their crops. Even farms that aren't certified organic often use very few pesticides and practice good farming techniques that are well worth supporting.

I really don't trust anything we buy from the market. I can't afford to buy the so called "organic" or the "certified organic" food all the time. There are so many exceptions to what is organic, alot of our food comes from other countries, most of that food doesn't get screened properly, and recently some foods shouldn't have arrived on our shelves but still made it here.

I have just two things to add to this conversation.

When you are considering buying produce - there are 4 types that you should ALWAYS buy organic because of the way the produce absorbs pesticides. By buying these organic (and obviously local, if possible), you cut out about 85% of all potential pesticide ingestion: strawberries, peppers (of all types), spinach and celery.

Also - buyer beware when it comes to the term 'free-range'. Eggs and chickens that are labeled 'free-range' are allowed to be labeled that way if the animal has access to free range (whether or not they ever go there). Chickens raised in huge warehouses with a tiny door on one end that is open to them only after they reach full maturity are considered free range. A chicken that spent its whole life in a warehouse has no interest in going out that little door - and all their nutrition came from pellets anyway - organic or not...and that is NOT free-range. This is true of layers as well as broilers. If you really want to know the practices of the farms from which you are buying your food - you need to research them yourselves. This is another critical benefit to buying locally (or raising your own).

If you really want an earful about the actions of the USDA and how they are destroying our nation's health through their practices (designed to protect the big corporate farms), then read "Everything I Want To Do is Illegal" by Joel Salatin. It's an eye-opener!

Yes, I buy organic - but how do we really know that the rules have been followed if the USDA only inspects a tiny fraction of the produce?

Regarding Trader Joes - Veronica - you're so right. How they can pack millions of tomatoes so that the rotten sides are ALL towards the bottom is beyond me.

Regarding buying local - excellent idea - but I get REALLY tired of cactus. Stewed prickley pear, anybody? :p

I usually won't pay exorbitant prices for organic food - whole foods is a bit too expensive for me, but then I need cash to pay for my bike hobby. But I do try to make smart food choices.

I'm a bit skeptical as to how organic some things actually are - take for example organic coconut milk. I'd be willing to bet that almost all coconuts are farmed organically - have you seen how thick the shells are and how high up coconuts are?

Trader Joe's - I love their dried fruit and some of their packaged stuff, but I don't live near one and they seem to always discontinue the item I love most right after I've taken a pretty large detour to get to one. I don't buy any produce from them because their prices aren't that great for the quality.

I get a fair amount of fruit from farmer's markets, other than that I love the selection that big korean grocery stores have. I grow tomatos, basil, strawberries, and a bunch of other herbs myself.

My Bloom (fancy food lion) grocery store has frozen wild pacific salmon in their seafood freezers that is $8 for 1.5 lbs, $6 when on sale. At that price, I don't see the point in paying for farmed atlantic salmon that someone added the pink color to, in order to make it look like salmon.

Where most of the organic products that I do buy come from is Costco. They have big cartons of organic salad mix that's like $6. 4-5 lb bags of organic spinach for like $5 as well. Same with organic carrots, peppers, etc. I live by myself, so I often can't eat that much in the way of vegetables, but I eat what I can, and when things start to turn, I just make a huge pot of soup out of everything... I freeze some of it to save for a cold day that I need a quick meal.

For biking, I carry a lot of Cliff bar products, which are "mostly" organic. Caffeinated shot bloks are the greatest thing since sliced bread. 2 or 3 of those with half a cliff bar when I start to bonk on a long ride is perfect. Every so often Amazon.com has great coupons on cliff products, and when they do, I stock up.

The cost of organic is abit high for us..and since neither of us are into gardening at all nor do we have much soil space except for herbs in containers.... so we just try to focus on buying local whenever we can.

There are certain vegetables, ie. Asian, that I cook, preferably veggies that are locally-grown. It is very rare we eat such veggies raw (ie. I never make raw snow pea dishes, etc.).

Local trumps organic. Obviously, how the local stuff is farmed matters. If a small, family farm which employs sustainable and healthy practices, better to buy local vs. shipped organic.

I think organic is just a way to get more of your money.

One thing that I really do like is organic "processed" products. I don't buy a whole lot of pre-made food, but there are things I like - like graham crackers, that I just don't have the time to do myself. I'd love to always make my own bread, but that's just not realistic for me. Take a look some time at the list of ingredients on a loaf of regular bread, then look at a loaf of organic bread - about 1/2 the ingredients, never any hydrogenated oils, usually natural sugar. I occasionally buy organic lemonade because it has real actual sugar in it and it just tastes better!