yikes! Good thing they got this on video. What is wrong with NY cops??
http://video.aol.com/video-detail/co...list/287327262
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yikes! Good thing they got this on video. What is wrong with NY cops??
http://video.aol.com/video-detail/co...list/287327262
I wonder how quickly that officer came to the realization that he just ended his career.
Wow... Whatever you think of Critical Mass (and their lack of helmets :eek:) it was clear by the video that the cop just targeted that guy for no reason. He could have cracked his head open...
I know the NYPD is all kinds of stressed out, but this is ridiculous. Cop was only on the job 6 months. There can be no possible excuse. Hope he's convicted of assault!
Ha... cops who shoot innocent unarmed people dead don't get convicted of anything...Quote:
Originally Posted by rij73
We assume that because we saw it on video that we saw everything that was relevant.
I admit that when I first saw this last night, I came to similar conclusions...but we really don't know, we just think. We assume the witness saw everything else going on...but did he?
Keep in mind that whatever we think of this incident, it is not inconceivable that anyone involved with Critical Mass has done, or will do, anything that this guy was charged with.
Despite what I saw, I am personally not in a position to decide guilt or innocence. Why was this guy singled out when the policeman had plenty of other opportunities to do the same to any one of a number of folks.
I'm not taking sides. I believe in cyclists rights, but I disapprove of Critical Mass tactics, but it's time for the justice system to sort this out...not us.
hm, is that attachment big enough?
Aren't videos great????
Well, the officer already lost his job, so that part came true.
Sorry about the size of attachments - I don't know how to make them smaller but I can 'linkify' them... Let me knowQuote:
Originally Posted by mimitabby
Here is a bit of 'bloggers musings' about the cop:
http://animalnewyork.com/news/2008/0...gans-anger.php
http://bikeblog.blogspot.com/2008/07...o-another.html
But honestly, one should judge NYC Critical Mass after riding on Manhattan streets for at least couple of months. Otherwise, there is a huge difference between riding in a small town or rural areas and Manhattan. They both have their dangers and 'hairy moments' but they are just different...
Martina
I dunno - if I was on a jury and you showed me that video I'd think its pretty well opposed to the version of events the police officer gives. This is what I saw:
The officer starts to walk towards the sidewalk, the cyclist, as the officer is now directly in his line of travel, decides to dodge to his left to avoid colliding with the officer. The officer somehow construes this as an aggressive act and tackles the cyclist. The video ends there, so I can't make any comments about what happens afterwards, but I will tell you if it had been me I probably would have not only been dazed and hurt, but very angry and probably would have said something profane first and then something about having his badge too.
This bears little resemblance to the story the officer tells, and it would appear eye witnesses are backing up the cyclist in this case. The police are also obviously having to take this seriously too - the officer in question is on desk duty and there is an internal affairs inquiry.
here's a link to another article http://www.nypost.com/seven/07272008...ist_121984.htm
exactly, Eden..
a quote from that article:
"If it wasn't caught on video people would not have believed it," said Christopher Ryan, who rides with Critical Mass and is filming the monthly protests for a documentary. "The video just shows what the cyclists have been saying all along, that the police are still harassing and intimidating them from doing group rides," said Ryan. "An officer assaulted a cyclist for no reason. It's just crazy."
Of course, the whole story appeared on police forums also. Here is what fellow officers had to say:
http://theerant.yuku.com/topic/7789/...g-cyclist.html
comment #4: "If his intention was to dismount a cyclist, a stick to the front spokes would have been a far safer, more effective method."
comment #6: "The officer appeared to slip on a banana peel left by a bicyclist."
comment #7: "what's the big deal he was keeping the bicyclists in check just letting them know we are still in charge it's an old school tecnique hahahahaha"
comment #8: "That was F'KING GREAT!
This cop stopped an aggressive bike rider flaunting his liberal interpretation of the law and made a controlled stop using the minimum amount of force necessary to effect the arrest without endangering any of the other liberals in the area.
He should be commended for his quick thinking in the face of such danger."
Or here: http://theerant.yuku.com/topic/7802/...s-bicycle.html
comment #7: Great hit. Nothing like the sight of the hippie savage hitting the pavement, whether it's on the business end of the nightstick, or a well executed body block as demonstrated here. If said hippie can't ride his little bike without avoiding the good officers of the law, then kissing the pavement is his lot, and rightfully so. Go fvck yourselves, hippy scum. Job well done, Officer. I myself will be hoisting a pint in your honor at Twins."
wow - and these are the people we rely on to protect us.......
that's really sad and disheartening.
It's no wonder it seems we can't ever get the police to take us seriously when we are harassed, injured or killed by drivers (some of whom have been officers this year!).
good Lord...I'm going back to bed and might just stay there forever....:mad::(
I'm with you Elk - there is just no understanding this.Quote:
Originally Posted by elk
spoke
Not saying anything about what the cop did but I'm more of a Critical Manners style rider myself
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...NGB6P8R1U1.DTL
I just read the report and it seems kinda bizarre given the video. Makes it sound like he was a solitary cyclist weaving back & forth and that the cyclist purposefully rammed the cop. Looked like he was trying to avoid the cop to me.
Apparently, the cyclist is an Army vet, so he'll have that going for him vs. being just a random punk-*** kid living off mommy & daddy.
BikeSnob has a good take on it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Silver
good luck. it's a legal system, not a justice system.
Just to play devil's advocate.... The videos making the rounds don't have any sound. We don't know if the victim was in fact taunting the police officer, daring the "pig" to get in his way, or even if he might have been voicing obscenities towards the police. We are quick to assume the victim is innocent I don't think any of us was actually there and we just don't know.
On the other hand, these Critical Mass Rides probably don't do anything to further the cause of responsible cyclists either.
I've gotten so that I'd rather not do club rides because even in a supposedly well behaved group, there are always one or two idiots who persist in riding all over the road, or fail to fall into single file when "car back" is announced.
A large charity ride with several thousand riders is a little different though many of those participants will still exhibit poor cycling behavior. But with several thousand riders, the motorists will just have to learn to relax and deal with it. I hope they will use the extra time to contemplate the benefits of cycling and wonder why they are in their cars when they too could possibly be on the bike instead.
Dream on.
Well after viewing the video at speed and at slo mo, and reading officer Pogans account, I would have to say that Officer Pogan's police statement clearly falsified all accounts of the event.
To knowingly give or make false statements is aggregious to say the least; but police are held to a higher standard than the public at large, and that the officers are very well aware of the consequences regarding this matter (to knowingly make false statements), I would hope that the DA will file a charges against Mr. Pogan for falsifying police record. This in itself is in violation not to mention is a serious breach of public trust and it must be dealt with accordingly. (NYPD for the longest of time have had image and trust problem with the public.)
Officer Pogan through his action has demonstrated that he himself is willing to work outside the legal bounds: The police report he filed contains three factually and grossly incorrect information. The video, no matter how one wish to look at it or try to interpret it, can not, in anyway, support Officer Pogan's stated sequence of events. If anything it totally contradicts the statements made by Officer Pogan's police report.
Had there not been a video evidence, Mr. Long could have been convicted wrongly for thrid degree assult on a police officer. Mr. Long's civil rights would have been violated. Officer Pogan's willingness to falsify police report with full knowledge that "defendent", victim of police brutality, would possibly go to jail. His willful misconduct on the street and subsequent action shows a clear disregard to civil rights and laws protecting individual rights. A far more serious crime than just filing a false police report.
He should not only be fired, but officer Pogan himself needs to spend some time in jail for civil rights violation.
two other points of observation: first is the temptation for officers to knowingly file a false police report. "the end justify the means". Sometimes this temptation is so great that, it happens. I just do not see any sense of "ends justify the means". and this leads to why would officer Pogan willing to become an assailant albeit in uniform.
Second point is did Officer Pogan wanted to show his fellow officer of his no non-sense approach to police enforcement, to show his father, grand father and his superiors that he is just as capable as them by hauling in an assailant who had wantonly assulted a police officer. That would look really good on his record. On his first month on the force... Looks really good.
I just hope that the lawsuit brought forth by Mr. Long's lawyer will force some change in police perception of cyclists as bunch of "liberal hooligans who need to be taught a lesson."
I will support a good cop. But a bad cop, depending on their transgression should be fired or even be jailed. There just is no excuse for knowingly breaking the law.
The video I have seen does have sound. All I can hear is a few people going "whoohooo" in the background somewhere. There is nothing to suggest that the man knocked down did anything more than participate in CM to provoke the officer's aggression. He was just in the wrong place when the officer decided that one of those hooligans needed a lesson. I'm really not willing to reserve judgement when it appears so very clear that the officer outright lied about what happened.
Point being missed here is that police can not act with physical force from verbal taunts or jestures deemed offensive. Flipping the bird/one finger salute or for brits, its the two fingers forfinger and the middle finger (of historical significance toward the French army).
Now if one were to approach an officer and start to scream at the officer in the face... A grey area.
Or if you were to raise your hand and ready to make a physical contact with the officer, then its all's fair on the part of the police.
I'm just suprised that the 22 or was he a 23 year old even managed to get on the force. You would think he would have been rejected on psyche profile. Wrong temperment...
If a cop doesn't have the self-restraint to refrain from attempting to cause serious physical injury to someone who's taunting him, or who's a member of a group that engages in rude behavior, they shouldn't have a badge (and especially a gun).Quote:
Originally Posted by withm
If a private citizen physically assaults someone who's taunting them, that's a crime, that's not self-defense. Even more so when it's someone who's paid to use self-restraint.
By logical implication, you're saying that there is NO justice in the system. Don't throw out the baby with the bath water. No one said it's perfect, but it's considerably better than the anarchy tactics of Critical Mass.Quote:
Originally Posted by PinkBike
Neither are all police perfect...they are human too! But, I'm confident that there is a system that sorts this out... demonstrations like this simply place more strain on the system.
Martina, that's a fair statement. But, there's a reason that I haven't been to NYC since 1987...everything is difficult there - getting a taxi, walking, the subway, expenses, crime, getting a quiet nights sleep...People choose to live there, I don't even choose to go there.Quote:
Originally Posted by martinkap
Thanks for posting that! that deserves a topic of it's own.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trek420
Where can I sign up for a local critical manners ride!
Wow thats not nice at all, police officers can be so mean!And he got charged with assultt. just sickening!
HA! That about sums up the difference between the East and West coasts!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by TsPoet
Hey Mr. Silver, c'mon back! The city is EXTREMELY different than it was in 1987. Much cleaner, safer, all around nicer. Of course you don't *have to*, but don't judge NYC by the 1987 version. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Silver
I absolutely believe you;) We have talked about it...perhaps my point relating to the inherent difficulty of density was lost in my reach back to 1987.Quote:
Originally Posted by rij73
If we come, will you take us riding (the Critical Manners way)?
I see some of the situations that have occurred recently - Seattle critical mass ride, in Portland, a biker holding on for dear life to windshield wiper, and now New York.
First, on New York - several versions of the video are out there. The longer versions seem to convince me the policeman overreacted. What he did was criminal - he should be in jail, and not a cop.
Second, I have many close friends who are policeman, who have risked their lives to save others. They work hard, are paid little and take lots of abuse. Yes, there are bad apples, but in my neck of the woods, they str some of the most hard working, empathetic people I know and they see some of the worst S___ anyone could see and deal with, and on a daily basis.
Ok, beyond that, Critical Mass isn't my style. I think more Gahndi and Mother Theresa.
Critical Manners are my type of bicyclists!
I know what you mean about the crowds... No way around that I'm afraid. But, absolutely we can go for a ride! I'm all about safe riding in the city. There are some lovely rides to be had along the river, through the parks, and across the Brooklyn Bridge. I do it all on a road bike. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Silver
Hate to... (apologize in advance for the alliteration) burst your bubble, BoiseBirder ;) but Gandhi was more the Critical Mass type. Nonviolent does NOT mean nonconfrontational! And there were plenty of people who purported to agree with his goals but found his methods (and MLK's) just plain "rude."
Not meaning to suggest that cyclists' rights are anywhere near racial equality or national self-determination in importance! But food for thought nevertheless. "Civil disobedience" isn't the same as "civil behavior."
While "Civil Disobedience" may involve the disobedience of laws in non-violent ways, it is at its core "passive" in its aggression.Quote:
Originally Posted by OakLeaf
When Critical Mass encircles a car, verbally assaulting the occupant, this is "active" in its aggression. While Gandhi may have engaged in tactics perceived as "rude", his own standards included principles of:
- not even harboring anger in your heart while resisting
- willingness to SUFFER the anger of the opponent
- voluntarily submiting to arrest and not resisting the confiscation of property
- protecting your own oppressor with your life if necessary
I do not find these principles evident in many Critical Mass events. This was just this week:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...reading27.html
Oakleaf - I respect that you were trying to challenge perspective, but I do believe that:
- Gandhi's "civil disobedience" requires that one be "civil"
- Gandhi & MLK were leaders in being civil; my research doesn't find much of a leader in Critical Mass or its events and its evolved into an anarchist type outreach.
You've posted one of the really early accounts of the Seattle incident. A few cyclists did get out of control, but not until the driver (who was parallel parked, not corked at an intersection) drove into a group of cyclists running one over and driving with another on his windshield. The driver has since admitted to initiating the aggression by revving his engine and claims to have accidentally popped the clutch and driven into the group of cyclists, though most people don't believe that.
The events after this were unfortunate and not excusable (the drivers tires were slashed and he was hit on the head), but have been explained as a reaction caused by the widespread notion that a driver who has injured cyclists, especially a hit and run, is essentially ignored by law enforcement, thus it would be necessary to detain him themselves. I don't think that is a good excuse at all for smacking someone with a U-Lock - you could kill someone doing that and I think the cyclist who hit him and the one who slashed his tires deserved to be arrested. The one thing I don't agree with is the driver has not been charged for assaulting the cyclists. No matter what his treatment was afterwards he should also be held responsible for his actions.
It does just go to illustrate though, how bad the incident with the NY police officer was. Things like that definitely reinforce the perception that the police have a bias against cyclists, are unlikely to help you and may even harm you. If the department does not make an example of the officer relations between them and cyclists will likely suffer.
good post Eden.
I can imagine being there and being upset because i just saw that driver run over someone and then attempt to get away! what if there had been broken bones or worse? who's going to pay for that? putting holes in tires seems like a gentle way to slow down a hit and run... but hitting him? breaking out his windows?
sounds like some people forgot... and now they're going to have to pay; and unfortunately the bike haters use all that stuff as ammunition. :(
I am not a fan of critical mass either...I just think it gives cyclists a bad name. As for what the cop did...he was probably trying to make his mark and hence he did that.
I stand corrected. Thanks for clearing the record on that...my primary points in my two posts are:Quote:
Originally Posted by Eden
- be careful in drawing parallels between the civil disobedience Gandhi/MLK and Critical Mass. Regardless of the oppressor's actions, these guys would have counseled to not fight fire with fire. (although I personally tend toward "fight" not "flight"...but I'm Italian...)
- don't trust everything we see in the media...including this video...as being the whole story.
One other point (quoting Donny & Marie): "One bad apple don't spoil the whole orchard..." I believe there are good people and bad people...there are good cops and bad cops...but I think the bad is the tiny minority.