With gas prices nowadays, why is US rail travel still so inconvenient?

Here's what brought this on: my family is going camping in upstate NY and I will be joining them for part of the time. It's about a four-hour drive from here, on a toll road most of the way to boot. Besides the cost, I just plain dislike driving long distances by myself--hard to stay awake so then I end up drinking a big iced coffee and often when I reach my destination everybody gets to deal with a spaz :eek:. So, I decided to look into Amtrak and see if that would be a possibility since I knew there was a train I could catch here that goes through Albany and thought there would possibly be a connecting train heading north, and also thought the cost would be comparable to driving. Well, the Lakeshore Limited (the one I'd get on to go to Albany) does intersect with a line that goes right where I need to go (Adirondack) but they each only run once a day and there is NO WAY to connect (Lakeshore Limited gets to Albany at 5:35 pm and Adirondack leaves Albany at 11:05 am...not gonna work!!). How stupid. If I could get where I needed to go, the cost would indeed be pretty comparable to driving (and it would be much nicer than driving). I wrote them an email on their website about these issues and we'll see what kind of response I get. It's just frustrating that the infrastructure is there (at least here in the Northeast), the price is reasonable, but the severely limited service makes traveling by train not feasible for most regional trips. You'd think with the current energy situation there would be some attention to improving this; I know for a fact that ridership has gone up lately (heard it on the news the other day). Ridership would increase even more if it were actually possible to make connections between lines:rolleyes:.

Wow, you can leave DURING THE DAY? You actually have great service...

I would have to drive three hours and make a connection at about 3 a.m.

I'd use Amtrak more if their prices weren't so rediculous. They're never on time, and when I used to ride from DC to New Haven, they were usually jammed with people, sometimes forcing them to stand in the aisles!:eek: I take the commuter train from New Haven now, and my afternoon train is late every day because we have to wait for the ever-late Amtrak train to come through (they own the tracks, so they get priority). I wish there were an alternative, and I hope that the current situation forces someone to look into the problem.

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Originally Posted by OakLeaf

Wow, you can leave DURING THE DAY? You actually have great service...

I would have to drive three hours and make a connection at about 3 a.m.

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If what we have here is "great service", that is pretty sad!! The only place where I would consider it "great service" is the Northeast Corridor line (Boston to VA). NoNo, that must be the one you're referring to with the ridiculous prices--they are rather high on that route. Some of the others in NE seem fairly reasonable, it's just that the schedules suck!! Your issue with Amtrak messing up your commuter train sounds like our issue here with CSX (freight company) messing up ours in and out of Worcester (and limiting service in and out of Worcester to boot)...it is a pain in the butt. Stuff like this sure isn't helping the energy situation--I think we should all write letters!

Because until this year, there hasn't been a high demand for passenger trains, or public transit in general - I think the last time mass transit was heavily used was prior to WW II. In the US the goal was a house in the suburbs and a car in the driveway, and many people achieved that. No middle class demand for mass transit - no more mass transit.

Young people are absolutely galled when I tell them that my parents used to put me on a bus to go visit my grandparents when I was in elementary school (back in the '60's). The bus driver had me and my brother sit right behind him, and wouldn't let us off until my grandfather came to get us. It was still fairly common for folks to ride buses, back in the day. (and now I'm going to slink off and look for more grey hairs...)

Don't forget that demand and availability go hand in hand. I'm not sure what happened after WWII, but definitely in the 1970s, subsidies were yanked away from Amtrak (which had a different name then IIRC) and handed to highway building instead.

I would love to ride the train - have wanted to for decades. That's "demand" in my book. But I don't actually ride the train, so I'm not counted as statistical "demand." As I said, I don't ride the train because the trip would be three to four times as long as driving; still much more expensive when you count the sleeper car (lodging) rates for a trip that would involve zero or only one overnight in a car; involve sleep deprivation through late-night transfers even if I could sleep in a moving vehicle; and still involve six hours of driving.

Why? Because the roads and automobile industry are what get the subsidies and support, and because Amtrak's been pretty poorly managed for a long time. Around here an issue is that the tracks are owned by freight train companies so that passenger trains have to wait. It's common for trains to be delayed for hours.
Our line from here to Chicago is pretty nice, though, for the same reasons the NE stuff is - there's the volume.
I'd like to see government support for mass transportation but that's not where the rich & powerful guys are.

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Originally Posted by bmccasland

Young people are absolutely galled when I tell them that my parents used to put me on a bus to go visit my grandparents when I was in elementary school (back in the '60's). The bus driver had me and my brother sit right behind him, and wouldn't let us off until my grandfather came to get us. It was still fairly common for folks to ride buses, back in the day. (and now I'm going to slink off and look for more grey hairs...)

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I looked into the Greyhound bus as well for this trip--you wouldn't believe the fare!! It was $125 for a nonrefundable ticket (round trip) and would still require somebody to drive 30 miles each way to pick me up. Odd, because usually the bus is a lot cheaper...

You might want to look into the bus - Peter Pan/Greyhound/Bonanza.

It took decades for passenger trains to decline in use and service- entire lines were eliminated left and right, starting with the car boom of the 1950's and the rise of superhighways and suburbia.
It will likely take many years to build the railroads back up again. But I sense it will slowly happen out of necessity. :o

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Originally Posted by OakLeaf

Wow, you can leave DURING THE DAY? You actually have great service...

I would have to drive three hours and make a connection at about 3 a.m.

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Amtrak Texas Eagle arrives on schedule only 63% of the time! It's suppose to arrive at 1:30 a.m. here and usually arrives 3:00 a.m. or so and on one occasion it arrived 4:30 a.m. :mad:

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Originally Posted by BleeckerSt_Girl

It took decades for passenger trains to decline in use and service- entire lines were eliminated left and right, starting with the car boom of the 1950's and the rise of superhighways and suburbia.
It will likely take many years to build the railroads back up again. But I sense it will slowly happen out of necessity. :o

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Amen sister.

Another major problem, at least here in Canada but I suspect it's the same in the USA, is that freight has priority on the rails (except for limited areas where there is a lot of commuter service, like around New York City, and that's only at certain hours). There is a pretty good service between Quebec City and Windsor in Canada (most popular connections being Montreal-Quebec City, Montreal-Toronto, and there is also a side-service to Ottawa which is very busy). But even then the trains are very often late because if they meet a freight train that wants to switch in front of them, they have to let them go.

(At least this was the case a few years ago when I was traveling along that corridor a lot.)

Still beats driving or taking the bus, so much more comfortable for only a few more dollars and a few more minutes. And safer, too. And wireless internet. :)

It will take a long time to come back to some type of capacity in the USA. It takes a long time to build or renovate passenger cars, train the staff, renovate the rails, etc.

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Originally Posted by Geonz

Why? Because the roads and automobile industry are what get the subsidies and support, and because Amtrak's been pretty poorly managed for a long time. Around here an issue is that the tracks are owned by freight train companies so that passenger trains have to wait. It's common for trains to be delayed for hours.

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That's pretty much true everywhere. Remember the railroad barons and the land deals? Those tracks are owned by the freight companies who don't give a sh1t about the quality of the tracks either. A load of furniture doesn't demand a smooth rail. I think Amtrak is acutally having to pitch in for maintenance when their fees to the freight companies should cover it.

I'm waiting for shippers to realize that rail can, in many circumstances, be a more cost efficient way to move freight rather than long haul truck.

p.s. Maybe you can take the train and then a bus to your final destination?

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Originally Posted by Grog

It will take a long time to come back to some type of capacity in the USA. It takes a long time to build or renovate passenger cars, train the staff, renovate the rails, etc.

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We're having that problem now in Connecticut. The last week or two, my normal 4 car train has been cut down to 3 because so many need to be repaired/upgraded. Of the cars they're still using, half the time the A/C isn't working:( If you get someone with luggage, there's very little room to put it, and it further cramps everyone. Bikes have to be wedged in the doorway, and on the line that runs from NYC to New Haven, they're not even allowed during peak travel times. There's talk of changing that rule and of adding racks or something to the trains to accomodate bikes, but as you said, it's going to take quite some time for that to actually happen.

The other issue we have with the Amtrak trains here is that in most places there's only one track. So there are only certain places where your train can move over and get out of their way. Don't know how they can resolve that.

oh get this, over here (west coast), freight trains have priority over passenger trains! So passenger trains can be very late, waiting on a side track for the 2 mile long freight trains to go by!

Unfortunately here in the US (unlike Europe) we either never built or tore up most of our rail lines..... so you can't get to out of the way places at all for the most place and even for the bigger cities it is inconvenient. Granted our cities and towns are waaaay more spread out than most European ones are, and that make it inherently more difficult to provide effective service, but we certainly could be better.

I've looked at taking the train down to California or out to Las Vegas before and it would take several days... sometimes it would be faster to just drive because of the odd hours that the trains run, the limited routes and the infrequency of the connections. For some things it still is nice. I've take the train from Seattle to Portland before and it still is (or at least was... can't imagine with the price of gas that it still isn't) cheaper and nicer than driving.

I will comment here since....have been in a carless/car-free household last quarter century and more. :)

One doesn't realize how huge Canada (and the U.S.) are until looking into rail and bus travel, limited options. VIA train lines for passengers are incredibly limited now. The greatest frequency of trains on a regular basis is the line in Southern Ontario and Quebec, between Windsor Ontario and Montreal.

Of course there are even more limited options for bike transport by train in Canada and U.S., ...ie. not every train time line. Due to limited vacation time, I have taken the train with bike several times between Toronto and Kingston; Toronto and Montreal; and Toronto andTuro, Nova Scotia. But I have also biked without train/sag wagon, from Toronto to Cornwall Ontario. It is strange that a Canadian passenger rail line, doesn't even run through Canada's capital city, Ottawa.

My partner has made use of the Amtrak train with his bike, I believe in the Chicago area, also somewhere from middle of the Southwest U.S. to Sacremento.

I looked into the Amtrak options between Vancouver, BC and Portland. Too long.

It is very true that freight trains take precedence in scheduling..since that's where the rail companies make serious money. When my partner was a contracts manager for an oil firm, part of his job included negotiating huge dollar deals and bulk raw materials purchase/transport (in metric tonnes) to be transported by rail, ship worldwide. The freight lines in North America, are run efficiently...those in supply chain management and raw materials transportation know this.

A subject of ongoing debate in Metro Vancouver area...is the need to extend the Skytrain(aboveground commuter train) to the suburbs where the population base has exploded in the past few years.

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Originally Posted by Eden

Unfortunately here in the US (unlike Europe) we either never built or tore up most of our rail lines.....

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At least some of them are turning into bike paths :D

www.railtrails.org

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Originally Posted by shootingstar

It is strange that a Canadian passenger rail line, doesn't even run through Canada's capital city, Ottawa.

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Psst!

The train does go to Ottawa from both Montreal and Brockville... You can check out the Google map on Via's web site: http://www.viarail.ca/trains/en_trai_tous.html

It is not quite part of the Quebec-Windsor corridor because Ottawa is a pretty significant detour North...

I tried going to Portland by train recently. The schedules for Vancouver-Seattle and Seattle-Portland don't match and you either have to overnight in Seattle or take a but to Seattle (organized by Amtrak) and then the train to Portland. Not a very interesting option unfortunately :( But it's also a long drive...

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Originally Posted by Trek420

At least some of them are turning into bike paths :D

www.railtrails.org

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Indeed - if we hadn't torn up most of our light and heavy rail around here we would not have the Interurban trails, both in the north and south parts of the sound or the Burke Gilman trail, or the John Wayne Pioneer trail that goes nearly all of the way across the state and into Idaho or the new gravel trail over in the east Sammamish area, or even be discussing another trail that would go from Renton to Snohomish to meet up with the Centennial trail...... I could go on... we do have a lot of rail trails around here.

Of course if we'd kept it, we might not be waiting for and spending multiple, multiple millions our current light rail project.... Personally I like the proposed idea that there is room for both! The right of way on the east side could be used for new light rail to link Renton-Bellevue-Everett and still have space for a bike trail that runs parallel

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Originally Posted by Jolt

Here's what brought this on: my family is going camping in upstate NY and I will be joining them for part of the time. It's about a four-hour drive from here, on a toll road most of the way to boot. Besides the cost, I just plain dislike driving long distances by myself--hard to stay awake so then I end up drinking a big iced coffee and often when I reach my destination everybody gets to deal with a spaz :eek:. So, I decided to look into Amtrak and see if that would be a possibility since I knew there was a train I could catch here that goes through Albany and thought there would possibly be a connecting train heading north, and also thought the cost would be comparable to driving. Well, the Lakeshore Limited (the one I'd get on to go to Albany) does intersect with a line that goes right where I need to go (Adirondack) but they each only run once a day and there is NO WAY to connect (Lakeshore Limited gets to Albany at 5:35 pm and Adirondack leaves Albany at 11:05 am...not gonna work!!). How stupid. If I could get where I needed to go, the cost would indeed be pretty comparable to driving (and it would be much nicer than driving). I wrote them an email on their website about these issues and we'll see what kind of response I get. It's just frustrating that the infrastructure is there (at least here in the Northeast), the price is reasonable, but the severely limited service makes traveling by train not feasible for most regional trips. You'd think with the current energy situation there would be some attention to improving this; I know for a fact that ridership has gone up lately (heard it on the news the other day). Ridership would increase even more if it were actually possible to make connections between lines:rolleyes:.

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Well, I tell you--as late as Amtrak always is, you should get to Albany the day before and you'll probably have only a couple hours layover for the next day's train! :p:p:p

Karen

You're right Grog...and I only know the Windsor-Montreal corridor rail line stops. Not the other to Ottawa.

yea, the European rail system is quite impressive.

What does bemuse me is the number of people I know personally who want to avoid the subway, light rapid rail local train, etc. But could help themselves since they are living on a tight budget.

One thing for certain public transit, buses and trains does expose you directly to a broader set of society...face to face/ body odour to body odour. :o