Commuter Purchase Dillema

I'm a recently graduated student and am on a budget. I don't have a car and do not yet have a desperate need for one (especially when the gas is so $$$!). The places I visit most often are my workplace and the grocery store (I heart Whole Foods!).

I went to my LBS and looked at a beaaautiful Trek 7.2 FX WSD but I'm having trouble justifying spending $400 on a bike that is going to be left outside to be rained on/snowed on, etc. I know I would use it and I currently live and will move to a place where I can store it inside while at home.

A couple questions for you regular commuters:

1) How do you keep your commuting bike in good shape? I might be able to keep my bike inside while I work, but what about commuting to other places?

2) Did you replace the stock saddle on your commuter bike?

3) Do you use clipless pedals on your commuter? I'm considering an spd/platform pedal (spd on one side, platform on the other).

4) Is the maintenance cost for a commuter bike comparable to that of a road bike?

Thanks!!!

Hi Ana. For my specific case...

1) How do you keep your commuting bike in good shape? I might be able to keep my bike inside while I work, but what about commuting to other places?
I park in a busy outdoor/uncovered bike parking area, at the store it gets chained to an exposed bike rack.

2) Did you replace the stock saddle on your commuter bike?
I have a Trek 7.5FX in the guys model so I swapped the seat for a Terry Liberator. The guy seat was a torture device.

3) Do you use clipless pedals on your commuter? I'm considering an spd/platform pedal (spd on one side, platform on the other).
I use plain old platform pedals, I can't do clipless on any bike (bad knee problem), and they seem to work just fine.

4) Is the maintenance cost for a commuter bike comparable to that of a road bike?
I find my maintenance cost are a little higher than my road bike due to the exposure to weather and the road debris that likes to eat my tires on my commute route. Keeping the bike waxed and well lubed seems to help quite a bit. And just an FYI, maintenance costs could be lower if I would learn how to do some stuff myself.

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Originally Posted by Ana

I'm having trouble justifying spending $400 on a bike that is going to be left outside to be rained on/snowed on, etc. I know I would use it and I currently live and will move to a place where I can store it inside while at home.

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OK, now I'm confused. :rolleyes: :) You currently live in and will move to a place where you can have the bike inside when at home.

And you say you might be able to keep the bike inside at work. Why would it be outside in the snow? :confused:

Keep your bike inside :) Rain, snow, salt if they salt the roads .... all the enemy of your bike. Sure, you can leave it outside but much more work and cost to keep it in shape.

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Originally Posted by Ana

1) How do you keep your commuting bike in good shape?

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I keep it inside :D Also regular routine maintenance, cleaning & lube, lube and clean. A tune up about once a year.

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Originally Posted by Ana

2) Did you replace the stock saddle on your commuter bike?

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Yes. But the ancient POS saddle the bike came with was comfy. I kept it for :eek: 10 years. Finally began wearing out so I replaced the seat and seatpost. :cool:

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Originally Posted by Ana

3) I'm considering an spd/platform pedal (spd on one side, platform on the other).

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That's what I use on the commuter, good choice :D My freewheel has BMX pedals. I love them. If I was replacing the pedals on the commuter or had another commuter, that's what I'd get.

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Originally Posted by Ana

4) Is the maintenance cost for a commuter bike comparable to that of a road bike?

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Yeah. I think so. A good bike is a good bike :D

Welcome to the wonderful world of bike commuting -- it really is the best way to travel. :)

1) How do you keep your commuting bike in good shape? I might be able to keep my bike inside while I work, but what about commuting to other places?
I bring mine inside both at home and at work, although I have in the past left it outside but covered. I routinely wipe the whole thing, chain and all gears included, and will occasionally wax it if I'm feeling ambitious.

It helps to clearly lay out your expectations about how good of shape your bike will be in: Do you want it pristine? Is some cosmetic gunk/rust acceptable? Is lots of rust acceptable? Rust looks bad, but it isn't a real problem except in a few places (particularly you'd want to avoid a rusty chain), so if you're willing to compromise and accept some cosmetic rust, which is almost inevitable if you live in a place where they put down salt on the roads during the winter, probably leaving it outside won't be too bad. If you want it pristine, you'll have to bring it inside and wipe it down after every single ride.

2) Did you replace the stock saddle on your commuter bike?
You bet I did! If you're expecting to spend a lot of time commuting here and there, it's well worth finding a saddle that's right for you and going with it. Be warned, though: Saddles can be remarkably spendy.

3) Do you use clipless pedals on your commuter? I'm considering an spd/platform pedal (spd on one side, platform on the other).
Yes, I have eggbeaters on mine, but my commute is mostly long stretches without stopping. You definitely can get a lot more power from using clipless shoes, although they take a lot of getting used to, and they, too can be pretty expensive. The spd/platform ones seem like they could be a good option for you.

4) Is the maintenance cost for a commuter bike comparable to that of a road bike?
I can't say, because although I have a road bike, I use it for commuting in the summer, so both my bikes are commuting bikes. I know for the winter commuting bike, I have to replace brake pads, the chain, and every occasionally (eep!) the rear cassette after a bad winter.

I guess in short this depends on you: Your riding style (you can avoid putting undue wear on the chain/cassettes by riding a certain way) and your ability to do minor adjustments and repairs yourself.

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Originally Posted by Ana

1) How do you keep your commuting bike in good shape? I might be able to keep my bike inside while I work, but what about commuting to other places?

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I am lucky that when the hospital (including the med school where my lab is) went no smoking, they converted the old smoking shelters into covered bike racks. At home I keep the bike in the garage.

Going places besides work, she just gets left out wherever the bike rack is. If it is raining, I tie a plastic grocery sack over the seat, protects the brooks leather saddle and also keeps my butt dry when I get back on the bike.

But in the winter, with the salt and sand on the roads, the drivetrain (chain & gears) requires a LOT of attention. My chain was constantly rusty this winter, sometimes I was cleaning it every night.

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Originally Posted by Ana

2) Did you replace the stock saddle on your commuter bike?

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She's an old bike, 15 years, and I have replaced everything over the past two years except the frame, the fork and the stem. The saddle is one thing I'd strongly recommend spending money on. I begged my parents to give me a brooks saddle last year ($84).

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Originally Posted by Ana

3) Do you use clipless pedals on your commuter? I'm considering an spd/platform pedal (spd on one side, platform on the other).

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I wanted to, but it was a low priority, and eventually I decided I'm glad I didn't get them. Maybe if some day I have 2 bikes, one for recreation and one for commuting, the road bike could have spd pedals. But the commuter bike just has toe straps, which means I only have to worry about one pair of shoes. Otherwise, I'd have to bring an extra pair of shoes to work, or keep a pair, and only wear clothes that matched the pair that lives at work, or something else complicated.

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Originally Posted by Ana

4) Is the maintenance cost for a commuter bike comparable to that of a road bike?

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Like everyone else said so far, I don't know. I hope someone knows, I'm curious too.

I have learned to do a fair bit of the maintenance myself. Get yourself a good friend in the bike shop. I think most of the mechanics are really happy you take an interest and don't mind letting you use their stuff and showing you how to do it if they're not busy. Some places you might have to pay a fee but it would be worth it.

It is certainly far less than maintenance costs on a car.

I keep my commuting bike in good shape by keeping it clean (wiping it down after rides) and lubing it kindof regularly (monthly for me, your situation may be different). I also keep it indoors.

I actually liked my saddle but it eventually got a hole in it. If it's comfy, use it. If not, change it.

I use campus pedals--platform on one side and SPD on the other. That way, I have a choice.

Maintenance costs depend on how much you ride. You'll want to consider replacing tires when they need it, extra lube, another tool kit to keep on your commuter bike, a bell, a light, high-visibility clothing, panniers or some sort of bag to haul your stuff in.

You don't mention how long your commute is, and through what kinds of conditions. Some questions to consider:
1. Will you ride year round (extra $ for winter and rain clothing)?
2. Will you ride at night (lights)?
3. Will you need to lock your bike outside or can you bring it inside to a secure location (like your office)? You'll likely need a chain or U-lock anyways if you go to the grocery store on your bike.
4. What will you need to carry (office clothes, laptop, groceries)? Panniers are my choice, but some folks like messenger bags or backpacks.

Commuting by bike is really great. I commuted for 6 years in DC 28 miles round trip year round. I don't do it anymore since I started working from home, but I do use my commuting bike for errands and groceries.

Oh, and you might be able to get a used bike, depending on the distance of your commute.

I'm going to answer this based on my new location and what I *think* will happen to my commuting bike!

1) How do you keep your commuting bike in good shape? I might be able to keep my bike inside while I work, but what about commuting to other places?
I bought an older bike to commute on. At home we have a garage, but at work, it'll be chained to a bike rack exposed to the elements. Same would be true if I rode it to run errands, of course. Because of this, I didn't want to use my road bike or my old 'commuter' which is actually a touring bike. I hope to keep it in working condition by keeping it well lubed and fairly clean when possible. I don't expect it to ever be pristine. The bike I bought has some chipped paint, so I plan to seal those areas with clear coat to avoid rust (and leave the paint looking chipped...I don't want a bike that looks TOO nice out there!).

2) Did you replace the stock saddle on your commuter bike? Yes, immediately.

3) Do you use clipless pedals on your commuter? I'm considering an spd/platform pedal (spd on one side, platform on the other). Both of my commuters (my old one and this new old one) will have the same pedals you are investigating. I use the clipped in feature for longer rides and the platform for quick trips.

4) Is the maintenance cost for a commuter bike comparable to that of a road bike? Not sure. It was pretty much the same on my old commute. My commute was a bit tougher on my bike than my road rides, but I did WAY more miles on my road bike...so the costs and wear were similar. I expect that my new situation will be similiar. It's a tougher bike, but I'm putting it through a tougher situation...so it'll likely need equal maintenance.

What's your climate?

I generally can't keep my bike inside at work... and I'm not really good at the cleaning and lubing (just got chastised at the LBS for bringing the Xtra in with an orange chain :( ). However, it's doable. So when I go home tonight I am going to bring the silly thing *under* the carport instead of sticking out (I have four bikes so I didn't ride it today, but I didn't think ahead and parked it badly), *and* take a rag and tri-lube to the chain. I am going to try to get into the maintenance habit.

I have fenders and that helps.

The saddle matters. I have only met one person who kept the stock saddle on a Trek ;) I have a 7500 FX (older version of 7.5) that I basically don't take out into the rain; it's my fast bike (skinny tires). Get a saddle that works :)

I'd be inclined to see what's available used (we've got a bike co-op where a person can get a working bike for a hundred bucks or so), tho' if I didn't have an easy way (getting a used bike has so many possible complications) I'd get that 7.2 and learn to clean it and lock it well.

I also am not a clipless person. I'm too cheap and heavens, shoes would be one more thing to remember and bring along. IT's toe clips.

The maintenance issues can be different. For one thing, maintenance is different if you're riding more and under adverse conditions... and if you're doing more miles... My LBS is on the way to work so I've managed to develop a relationship with them so I can drop in with questions or minor emergencies, but this is a small town, and they're good people who do little things for lots of people, not just serious groupies like me.

Today it's really rainy so I took my folding bike that cost me $600 - but I could have gotten a last year's Dahon Speed D7 for less than $400 and it could stay inside (and it comes with rack and fenders, which I still have to get for mine). So look at all your options!

I want to make one more comment. It may seem at first that commuting by bike is awfully expensive. Some of the stuff seems outrageously expensive to me. It's tempting to get the $10 Planet Bike front & rear blinkies instead of spending $20 each on slightly better front and back lights, for example. And $10 Planet Bike blinkies are worlds better than what most folks use (nothing). But you find that if you spend a little more up front, you have reliable equipment that lasts longer.

It sure hurts spending more up front. And sometimes you simply can't afford to spend a little more, and you have to get by on the $10 blinkies or go without (really dangerous).

Just keep reminding yourself how much the equivalent expendature would be on a car.

Just what I needed.....another option!

I just found a Cannondale Adventure comfort 5 which is comparable in price to the Trek 7.2 FX WSD! The Cannondale has a much more upright riding position but has fatter tires and can go on bike paths :) Plus it has pretty welding....

Any opinions/comments on the Cannondale Adventure Comfort 5 vs. Trek 7.2 FX WSD?

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Originally Posted by Ana

I just found a Cannondale Adventure comfort 5 which is comparable in price to the Trek 7.2 FX WSD! The Cannondale has a much more upright riding position but has fatter tires and can go on bike paths :) Plus it has pretty welding....

Any opinions/comments on the Cannondale Adventure Comfort 5 vs. Trek 7.2 FX WSD?

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Is there any bike that cannot go on bike paths?

I know nothing about the Cannondale you describe, but if you want to commute on it, you should consider that the "comfort" bike with wider tires is likely to be less efficient, i.e. to not go as fast for the same effort. If your commute is a mile or two that's one thing. If it's more like 5-10 miles, then it matters a bit more...

Also check whether you can add a rack on the Cannondale.

Have you test ridden the bikes?

"Comfort" translates into "lots more work." Honest. The 7.2 will go anywhere you want :)

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Originally Posted by Melalvai

Just keep reminding yourself how much the equivalent expendature would be on a car.

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Just remember the above. Always. I have saved a freakin' amount of money over the past 1/4 century :rolleyes:, if you read on, below.

We don't have a car. By now, I probably sound boring and repetitive to this forum since I've mentioned it before: I've lived in a carless household for last 25 years. (I'm 49). Cycling for fitness, commuting and transportation last 17 yrs. I've always lived in cities with good public transportation systems.


I've always owned and rode a hybrid. I keep my bikes (I have 3) indoors at home..have been fortunate to live in buildings that had communal bike locker rooms. I should maintain my bike more often..more like a major tune-up annually. I ride with toe clips..even on touring rides, etc.

At first it might feel abit expensive with a cycling jacket (you will want one after you sweat in other types of jackets), cycling gloves, etc. but if you spread out the purchases over a few months, it's not so daunting.

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Originally Posted by Melalvai

$10 Planet Bike blinkies are worlds better than what most folks use (nothing)

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I have one of these and it may be the best ever. I've had people who were riding behind me tell me so.

http://ecom1.planetbike.com/3034.html
I know I didn't pay that much, though.

I have test ridden both bikes only once and a week apart.

Here's what I gathered from my rides:

Trek 7.2 FX WSD

• Obviously fast
• Nice handling
• Nice click gearing
• Pretty blue! (okay, not most important characteristic...)
• Comfortable enough that I know I could ride it anywhere
• Rack attachment compatible
• Less expensive than the Cannondale

Cannondale Comfort Comfort (Rememine?) 5

I tested the men's version because it was in my size. Here are my notes:

• Not as fast as the Trek
• More upright position
• Cushier (which I don't really care about. I like speed :))
• Twist shifters which I am not crazy about
• Not as pretty (in my opinion)
• Fatter tires which are better for the bumps in the road but are not as fast :(
• Rack attachment compatible
• More expensive (~$50) than the Trek
• Frame was "beefier" than the Trek...more indestructable-looking (relevance unknown but I thought I would include it)

Between the two, I'm pretty sure I like the Trek better not only because it's prettier (I know things like that aren't supposed to matter...) but also that it's more fun to ride! Plus they have VERY comparable parts on them (with the exception of the shifters).

There was also another Cannondale I am considering from the same Cannondale dealer from which I test rode the Comfort 5. I haven't test ridden the Cannondale Adventure Feminine 5 but it is more comparable to the Trek in that it has 700 x 38 tires and is also aluminum. The LBS said I could test ride it in my size once they assemble it (this weekend) if I like :) The Adventure is the same price as the 7.2 FX WSD Trek. I will likely go back tomorrow and test ride that one :)

Really, I can't imagine what you would do with 700 X 38 tires if your purpose is to commute, unless you're always on a gravel road (and even then...). I have had 38s on a campus bike for two years and I HATE them. I've kept them because I only ride 2 km with that bike every day.

I really think you will have a lot more value and function out of the Trek.

If you are not fond of the fatter tires already, I really don't think you'll find them to be worth the "cush" factor later.

Yes, there is a trade-off with tire sizes... I'm speaking as someone who has 28 on one bike, 32 on another, and mtb slicks on a third, so clearly I like wider tires. (don't forget the joys of lower pressure tires, too! My 700x28 were high pressure, then I switched for lower pressure Vittoria Randonneurs and the comfort factor went thru the roof!)

I would be inclined to go with the Trek you know you already like.

"Beefier" looking frame doesn't necessarily mean anything. What really matters is how it feels. And "pretty" does matter! If your gut instinct is that a particular bike is beautiful, don't fight the gut! Get the bike that calls out to all your senses and makes your heart jump!

(If you do have a concern about a bombproof frame, how about trying steel? The Kona Smoke is similar to what you are looking at, but in a steel frame. I was gazing longingly at one of the 2008 Smokes today at my LBS. But it's hard to justify buying another one. Even when it's only $350. (I have a 2007 Smoke, which my son is using. It has smaller wheels than the 2008.))
www.konaworld.com/08_smoke29.htm

Yes, I also considered a Kona Smoke (which is a very popular commuter bike) but the components weren't as good and the Trek 7.2 FX WSD is only a bit more. My LBS also made the comment that parts have to be replaced more often on the Kona Smoke than something a little more upgraded.

I did consider steel but I'm afraid of the rust and I will also be keeping it in a basement-type place so I'll have to carry it out myself...and I'm only 5'3" and bikes are so awkward for me to maneuver :P

Now I'm debating whether or not I should purchase a bike off someone else to help recycle (all those bikes that need homes!) so I'm looking at a used 2004 Trek Navigator 300 tomorrow :) I'm not sure if will fit (14.5" frame, comfort bike) but we'll see.

I'm planning a bike shopping adventure tomorrow: looking at the used Trek Navigator 300, looking at the Trek 7.2 FX WSD again in case I don't like the used Navigator. I've been looking on eBay and craigslist like crazy but no one has a bike in my price range and size.

Ana - I have owned a Trek Navigator and a 7.2fx. I recommend you pass on the Navigator as a commuter. It has a front suspension fork and is really heavy compared to the 7.2fx. You don't need suspension to commute. The Navigator is a comfort bike and the 7.2fx is called a fitness bike. Less of a comfort bike than most hybrids. The trek also has the 35cm select inverts on them. They are puncture resistant and I found they would go through potholes, gravel and I never had a flat. It was a great commuter! Have them put on fenders and a rack and you are good to go!

Thanks for your info :-) I always love to hear from someone who has both--it's the best advice when trying to decide between :D

Okay, time to look at bikes :)

I found a used mountain bike that will serve a lot better than that comfort bike for a lot less! :D It's a Trek 830 and it's in great condition (no rust on the components) and the components are equal or better than those on the Trek 7.2 FX I was considering. It also comes with a lock, a rack, a pump and commuter lights on both ends! I'm so excited. Since I'm only spending a little on the bike, I can spend the extra to have it properly tuned up! :)

My commute is only 7-10 miles round trip and will be less than 3 miles round trip after the summer so this works well! :)

I have to say though, bike shopping as well as visiting bike shops tempts me to get another bike (hybrid like Trek 7.2 FX or a road bike) even though I don't really need it, have the finances to support it or want to lug it around as I move :-P Oh bikes--I love them :)

Now to widen the scope of my maintenance knowledge.... :)

Great, hope you have fun on your commute rides...

And you probably will buy a 2nd bike in a 1-2 yr. later. Cycling passion just spills over...:rolleyes:

Great job! Enjoy the new bike! There will be time for another one later. :D

and you can get things like just the right tires and accessories for this one and it will be as good as a new one. You'll bond with it :) It's nicer for parking outside for those "other commutes," too.

If you are thinking about a Cannondale I would suggest the Cannondale Adventure 1. It has a very lightweight suspension system. The same head shock they put on their Caffeine Mountain bike frames. This would be a much lighter option that will make your legs happy in the long run.:)

I've been following your decision agony, and am happy that you've found a bike that will work for you!! Now, you must post pictures so we can see your new buddy. :D

I think a Trek 830 is just about the definition of bombproof! Congratulations on your "adoption," and enjoy your commute!

Yes, I will get some pictures up as soon as I get it fixed up :)

It needs a lot of work, including:

• Wheel truing
• Chain replacement
• Clean cassette/cogs
• Parts inspection/bearing lubrication
• Good rub-down to be clean and SHINY :)

I'm sort of excited because I get to practice my very novice repair skills :) I'm planning to take it in for a professional tune up but I wanted to do some stuff myself. :p

I did a few preliminary things and the weather was so beautiful this morning so I took it to work and it rides beautifully! I'm so happy with my find :D :D :D

Very cool, Ana! Sounds like the perfect commuting companion. We'd love to see before and after pictures!

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Originally Posted by Geonz

and you can get things like just the right tires and accessories for this one and it will be as good as a new one. You'll bond with it

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That is so true. When I started commuting I was riding the bike I bought in college 15 years ago. When the bike mechanic told me I should probably just get a new bike, instead of replacing the bottom bracket, I wanted to cry.

I went ahead and replaced the bottom bracket--and eventually, every component on the bike except the frame, fork and stem. I do want a new bike some day, a WSD, but even then I will keep this one. She wasn't anything special (Specialized Crossroads). There have already been times when I've needed a backup bike, or a bike for a visiting friend or relative, and she'll do just fine for that.

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Originally Posted by Ana

Between the two, I'm pretty sure I like the Trek better not only because it's prettier (I know things like that aren't supposed to matter...)

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Originally Posted by KnottedYet

"pretty" does matter!" ]

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Ana, I know you've already found your bike (congratulations!) but a little anecdote about the FX.

I was looking for a canal bike and really liked the FX but already have a Trek road bike in that color so I bought a cheaper used bike.
I went back to the shop during their sale and they had assembled an '07 FX in black with pink accents.
SOLD!
Now I don't feel so guilty :o ;)

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Originally Posted by zencentury

I went back to the shop during their sale and they had assembled an '07 FX in black with pink accents.
SOLD!

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That's my exact bike! She's pretty :D And she rides great along the canal paths.

Yes, it's quite sad but after my search for a commuter, I come across all these bikes that need homes on craigslist, etc and I have the urge to give them a home! :P

And as much as I loved the Trek 7.2 FX WSD, I could hardly justify spending $400 (without lights, fenders, kickstand, etc) ON SALE for a bike that I would feel bad about putting/having/exposing to the outside :P

Plus, compared to my satisfaction with my newly acquired Trek 830 (love it), the Trek 7.2 FX was hardly worth the extra expense for me :) Plus I want to get some maintenance under my belt :) I'm the sort of person who usually learns everything about a topic before engaging in it but my road bike was a gift so I didn't have time :) So I'm learning as I go...which is okay. :P

As far as pictures go...I'm not sure there will be enough difference to differentiate a "before" and "after" but it is an awesome idea and I will attempt to do it :) Maybe I'll end up impressing myself....oooo :D

I think you made a wise decision. Now you can see exactly what you want on a bike and down the road you will know EXACTLY what to get. I wish I had purchased used instead of going through the Trek line of hybrids and now I'm waiting on my custom built Surly. And the maintenance? Part of the fun! You will learn so much. Get her fixed up and post her pics!

Here are some before and after pictures.

Here are the changes (although some are less obvious than others) that I made:

• Chain replacement (the one it came with was gunky and stretched out)
• Wheels trued
• Tires (and tubes) replaced with 26" x 1.5" commuters--they make SUCH a difference!
• Cleaned cassette/chainrings
• Front fender put on (back fender is pending, as it needs a larger screw....so I need a trip to the hardware store)

It is the perfect size for me, especially for the price and I am learning a lot about my bike! The more I work on it, the more I like it :)

Oh yes, and my thanks to the thread about cleaning your bike with Q-tips...not I've become obsessive about grime! :P

Things that still need to be done:

• Cap on the end of the rear derailleur cable
• Rear fender attachment
• Spoke inspection by a professional at the LBS (I'm afraid the rims I have are the original ones :eek:)
• Pedal replacement (eventual upgrade?)

I'm also thinking about some panniers once I start going to the farmer's market :D

Anyway, I love riding this bike!! :D

She's byoootimous :) :)

what a good find! the black is classy.

that saddle looks like a torture device though. is it comfortable?

Nice job! :D

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Originally Posted by liza

that saddle looks like a torture device though. is it comfortable?

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Surprisingly, yes, it is comfortable! It's really very strange because it does not look comfortable but it is (I have a 130mm Specialized Ariel on my road bike which is a cushier saddle by road bike standards)! I think it works by cushioning and perching you up by your gluteus maximus more than your sit bones so my girly bits are unharmed. It's a gel version and is VERY cushy but is comfortable. You have to keep in mind that my commute is not more than 15 minutes so I have never been on it for prolonged periods of time (and not sure it would withstand the test). In addition, I dismount my bike at lights/stops. It probably cushions my soft tissues from all the bumps of the road :P

If I had a more serious/longer commute, I would probably be looking for a new saddle.

I thought I would do the close-ups to show my Q-tip handy work ;)

I just want to hop on my bike and go everywhere! It's like a bonus after I get out of work :D