Who's bought a custom bike "long distance"?

I've been trying to avoid going the custom frame route, but I've been realizing over the last few weeks that I'd be going longer distances on my bike if I just didn't hurt so much. I've worked with my LBS guy to tweak reach to handlebars, saddle position, and everything else we can think of, but I'm still in pain after about 30-35 miles, and after about 40, I'm in misery: shoulders, back, neck, hands. And on my bike, some things are adjusted as far as they can go. It's frustrating because I feel strong enough to ride longer, but the painful parts are screaming at me to stop.

So I'm going to get a pro fitting, and maybe try out some recumbents, though not sure I want to go that way. After that, I'll consider my options. But I'm wondering whether any of you have stories to tell about ordering a custom frame (or complete bike) long distance--good experience? Bad experience? In between? Things to look out for? Thanks for any advice.

Well, i did and sent it back. it wasn't what i asked for.

But i'd do it again someday; maybe, from Mercian? :cool:

I thought I remembered your ordering a custom frame, Mimi. So sorry to hear it didn't go well. So what did you end up doing for a bike?

What do you mean by long distance? You mean, ordering from a builder without being fit in person by the builder?

Yes, I have, but I wouldn't do it unless you have a builder with years of fitting experience, a top notch local fitter and a very clear idea of what position makes you happy.

Sounds like you have far too much weight forward on your bike which could be a number of problems. What do you do for core strength? Just asking as it is one of the cheapest routes for alleviation.

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Originally Posted by Bad JuJu

I thought I remembered your ordering a custom frame, Mimi. So sorry to hear it didn't go well. So what did you end up doing for a bike?

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my custom frame I bought from a local builder after getting burned by a guy on the east coast with a NOT custom frame.

My bike that I ride today is a Davidson.
http://www.sersale.org/bike/cavalletta.jpg

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Originally Posted by SadieKate

What do you mean by long distance? You mean, ordering from a builder without being fit in person by the builder?

Sounds like you have far too much weight forward on your bike which could be a number of problems. What do you do for core strength? Just asking as it is one of the cheapest routes for alleviation.

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Yes, I mean ordering from a builder that's far away by filling out a form with my measurements, etc.

Interesting you should mention core strength--I've just started working on that. When I was in the navy, about 100 years ago, I had great core strength, but I got lazy about it when I wasn't having to do regular physical fitness tests. So now I'm doing a program of weight training twice week, including some crunches and planks, and yoga once or twice a week. So you're saying that building a stronger core may help?

Absolutely! And if the navy experience was, ahem, 100 years ago, you really need to do exercises that strengthen your ability to hold up your head while leaning forward. Crunches are important but work the front of your neck, not the back. Planks help but your head is more aligned with your spine that it is on a bike.

Speaking as someone who isn't getting any younger either, the first thing that goes for me is the muscles on the posterior sides of my neck. I've been doing lots of core strength work lately while having been off the bike for several months. Everything feels great except my neck -- because I neglected to work on those muscles that are very specific to that forward lean.

Great articles here from someone with first rate credentials.

http://www.topbike.com.au/physio.htm

Yes, a strong core will definitely help because you will be able to support your body with your body, instead of supporting your body by putting all your weight on your shoulders and arms, down to the handlebars. Crunches are only okay IMO, yoga is good for flexibility and some strength, but I've found that pilates has really helped me strengthen my core deeply. You might want to check out pilates with certified instructors that specialize in pilates (not hybrid-pilates-type classes taught at some chain gyms).

I have a Luna, which I adore. It was pre-built, however, so was not built for me. I was in Santa Fe NM for another reason and decided to check out this bike that I saw on the internet at Luna. I rode it, Margo measured me, and the bike fit my measurements. It's just fantastically comfortable. I've been riding road bikes since 1983 and this is by far the most comfortable road bike I have ever ridden. I hardly know I'm riding it. There are no pressure points, no soreness.

I just bought another custom bike that was based on my measurements and on the measurements of my Luna that I sent in. It's a Bike Friday. I've only ridden it twice, since I just got it last week. It, too, is quite comfortable, but I need to ride it more to have an accurate picture.

Other folks on this list also have gone the custom route; I know of at least one Luna owner (she's bought a couple, so I would guess that she likes them).

Have you tried riding stock bikes (WSD or not) that fit better than your current bike? There are lots of TEers who seem to be quite comfortable with their stock bikes--OCRs, Ruby, others?? There's only so much tweaking you can do if the frame just doesn't fit you, and that getting one that does fit will be quite an improvement.

Regardless, core work is very important. That'll improve posture, sitting in chairs, walking, sleeping, riding, everything.

Besides sharing all the concerns other people have expressed, I wouldn't order anything expensive after "filling out a form with my measurements." Measuring the human body is a very technical skill, and the important variables are going to be different depending on what it is that you're ordering. I wouldn't have a tailor measure me for motorcycle leathers, for instance, or a motorcycle leather race support person measure me for a bicycle.

I opted to order a custom bike from Luna Cycles as well. I first communicated with several Luna owners.
Margo has you take a LOT of body measurements and send them to her. She also took the angles and frame geometry of my current bike. She takes a lot of info on all the issues both good and bad that you are currently having. She liked that I sent her photos of me riding my current bike as well- pictures of body posture and positions can say a lot about bike fit. I trusted her because she has been building custom bikes for women for over 15 years now.
I don't have my Luna bike yet....it should be arriving within the next 4 weeks or so- it's still being painted right now. So unfortunately I can't give you any input yet on how it turned out.

While I haven't gone full custom yet, if I think about the folks that just rave about loving their custom bikes, both here (Mimi, DebW) and local people I know, they all worked with LOCAL custom builders (around here Crumpton in Austin has a terrific rep...). That is my plan once I finish putting my kids through college...... The next best thing I think is flying out for a fit/design session, but I think you need to meet and ideally go for a ride with your builder, let him observe you on your present bike, etc., be sure your philosophies mesh (i.e. don't buy a bike from someone that doesn't think TCO is a problem if you think its a problem, stuff like that).

Correction, if you wanna call a bike friday a custom, I did have one built from measurements I mailed in of me and my present bike, and it had to be re-done......... SO that is what I think of that route. But bike fridays aren't truly custom bikes. They have pre-fab seat masts and mid sections that get put together in diff. comb. depending on your size specs, which is not the same as having a custom builder design your bike from scratch where frame angles can be varied, etc.

I would also suggest trying other pre-built frames with different geometries. Get your measurements, then see if anyone makes a bike with that geometry. You might not need a custom bike, just one that truly fits YOU!

When you're working with your local LBS, do you get a feeling for what's not working on your current bike? Is it too big, too small, reach too high, too low, seat position okay, etc? You might just need a new bike that's the right size for you.

I think we all need to clarify what we each mean by "measurements." I worked with Tom Kellogg of Spectrum, arguably one of the best in the business. Many world titles on his bikes. He didn't want body measurements; he wanted to see profile photos of me in very specific positions on all of my bikes and measurements of my current bikes. He was working with joint angles and weighting because that is what allows the proper muscles to be engaged. Measurements like leg length, etc., tell a builder nothing about your flexibility - for instance, how comfortable you are with leaning forward and where the bend is achieved. Some folks will never have a pure "flat back."

I had a very experienced fitter do everything locally and then set up a fit bike off Tom's CAD drawing and take more photos. Tom nailed the fit from across the continent. But I've got 20 years of riding under my belt and knew what positions my body was happy with. Therefore, Tom had an experienced and knowledgeable customer to work with.

All this doesn't mean you don't need a custom bike. A friend's first road bike was a custom Seven because her body just didn't fit stock bikes. She looks fabulously comfortable on it and her mileage zoomed up, but she worked with a local fitter (happened to be the same one that I did). The builder doesn't need to be local, but whoever is doing the fit and advising the builder needs to be be. Tom could turn out the same great fit for an inexperienced rider if he has a good fitter to work with. For one thing, the average newbie wouldn't know how to measure bikes properly.

Ask BikerZ about getting her Seven. She had a local fitter and the bike was built across the continent.

And good builders should be willing to work with local fitters. Otherwise, move on . . . .

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Originally Posted by SadieKate

I had a very experienced fitter do everything locally...

The builder doesn't need to be local, but whoever is doing the fit and advising the builder needs to be be.

And good builders should be willing to work with local fitters. Otherwise, move on . . . .

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Amen, SK!

My LBS owner is a very experienced fitter. He took all my measurements, similar to SK's experience detailed above. Once he and I were happy with my positions on the fit bike, he sent everything to Indy Fab in MA. Four months later I had my bike & it was the best investment I have ever made (in cycling, that is! :rolleyes:)

I too was referring to working with someone locally, not just trying to do the whole thing yourself over the internet. I thought she was asking about those places where you fill in a chart with body and bike measurements, and send them in and they build you a bike. I also think any local person you work with has to be a really good fitter, which you may or may not have in your area. Indeed that same fellow that has a Crumptom bike he loves, also got a Tom Kellog bike before that, but in that case he did fly out to visit Tom for a personal fitting. In my opinion, I also think its best to take out the middleman and work directly with the builder, if at all possible, but again it depends on your local options, if the 'middleman' knows you, your bikes, your riding style really well, maybe that is the best way to go.

Triskeliongirl, you know I'd normally agree with you about cutting out the middleman, but, besides the obvious "no builders in my area" problem for a lot of folks, there is a huge increase in the number of new builders who haven't put in a lot of time doing fittings. They may be able to turn out a great bike, but I'd want to see their credentials and if they're being mentored by anyone.

A superb welder does not mean a good bike designer or a good fitter. But s/he can still set themselves up as a custom builder.

I've been looking lately at some newbie builders but I'm also looking at where and with whom they apprenticed.

I'll chime in and reinforce what SadieKate and IFJane said.

(And IFJane's point is good too - in my case the "middleman" knew me and my riding history and goals well, and was an excellent interpreter between me and the builder.)

I had a great experience with my custom Seven - my regular LBS guy is a very experienced Seven fitter and dealer out here in California*, and had been helping me tweak my old bike for 2 years before I started the custom process. He had a clear idea of what had worked and what had not worked for me with my old bike, and understood very well what my near and long term cycling goals were. I test rode a couple of steel and Ti Sevens he had in the shop that were more or less my size, with my saddles, pedals and wheels, and another Ti bike, and then Chris and I talked about how each bike felt to me.

He spent a long time with me on the Serrotta fit cycle and taking other measurements. One of the nice things about working with an experienced Seven dealer was that I didn't have to do the whole 20 page Seven questionnaire myself (well, not really 20 pages). I don't have a ton of cycling experience, and a lot of those questions were over my head, or addressed aspects of cycling that I felt I didn't have the expertise or discrimination to understand and address. Also, Chris does so many Sevens that he can bypass the "standard" process with Seven, and submit CAD drawings and measurements directly to the builders, which made the whole process very quick.

And the proof is in the bike - I love, love, love my Seven, I feel totally at ease on it, no more scootching around constantly to get comfortable. And it just GOES, snappy and responsive yet smooth. Plus it is beautiful! :D

* Chris Robinson at Robinson Wheelworks in San Leandro

Bad Juju, if you can get a stock bike that fits you well, it's alot less hassle than going custom. There are alot of very good stock bikes out there, and they may be more appropriate than a custom bike. Having a good fitter is just as important for choosing a stock bike, too.

If I the pre-built Luna that I bought had not fit me, I would have worked with my local shop, which is a Luna dealer and the owner of which is a fantastic fitter, to get a custom Luna. Margo of Luna is an experienced fitter, and she worked with me to tweak the pre-built, although it didn't need much tweaking. I would not have bought the pre-built Luna without going out to New Mexico to ride it and have Margo fit it to me. Luckily, I just happened to be there for another reason and decided to take advantage of the opportunity.

I know what I like in a bike after riding them for 25+ years, including a few racing years. I felt comfortable getting the Bike Friday remotely; I also didn't just send it the form, I talked to them alot.

Tulip, I am so glad that got your PRP right the first time! I too know what I want in a bike, and even though I also talked with them a lot, and spec'd in writing a specific top tube length, the bike arrived with a top tube that was 2 cm longer per their 'formula', although to give them credit they did remake the bike correctly, and my understanding is have since changed the formula to better consider women's bodies.

You guys have made a a lot of good points that not all builders are good fitters. But I think the consensus is that you need both good fitters and good builders involved in the process (and sometimes they are the same person and sometimes they are not), and even for a stock bike a good fitter. All of that is difficult when you simply submit measurements on a website and a bike appears.

What BikerZ said.
My custom Seven, I suppose you could say, was bought "long distance" - they are in Massachusetts and I am in Maryland. I worked with a very knowledgeable rep at my LBS who knows me, knows my riding habits, my goals, and my cycling needs/wants. He knew my pet peeves about my old bike (also a Seven, and blissfully, those peeves were pretty minor and were all because of my health and not the bike at all).
It was fantastic to have a local rep working with me on the build...interpreting things I did not "get" and helping me to vocalize what I needed and wanted. It was like having a ringer beside me, making sure the bike turned out just the way I wanted. And, sure enough, it did. I'm very happy with my bike, and if I had a windfall of cash, I'd buy a custom Seven 'cross bike as my ultimate commuter!

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Originally Posted by Triskeliongirl

Tulip, I am so glad that got your PRP right the first time! I too know what I want in a bike, and even though I also talked with them a lot, and spec'd in writing a specific top tube length, the bike arrived with a top tube that was 2 cm longer per their 'formula', although to give them credit they did remake the bike correctly, and my understanding is have since changed the formula to better consider women's bodies.

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+1

My Bike Friday also arrived with too long a top tube -- I had specified an effective top tube measurement I wanted, and they just didn't do it. Even the redo, which they did do for free (and covered shipping both ways) was a little longer than I spec'd, and as a result, the stem is a little shorter than ideal. I still love the bike, but at the time I got mine (2004), they just couldn't believe anyone with my measurements would require a 19" top tube, but I knew it from my two other road bikes. I emailed and talked with them a lot both before and after the fact. I hope they "get it" better now!

Emily

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Originally Posted by emily_in_nc

+1

My Bike Friday also arrived with too long a top tube -- I had specified an effective top tube measurement I wanted, and they just didn't do it. Even the redo, which they did do for free (and covered shipping both ways) was a little longer than I spec'd, and as a result, the stem is a little shorter than ideal. I still love the bike, but at the time I got mine (2004), they just couldn't believe anyone with my measurements would require a 19" top tube, but I knew it from my two other road bikes. I emailed and talked with them a lot both before and after the fact. I hope they "get it" better now!

Emily

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b

Maybe you ladies may have helped them get it right, and I thank you for that. My BF is quite comfortable and feels like the same setup as the bike on which the measurements are based. Granted, I've only ridden it twice, once for 30 minutes and once for an hour. This weekend I'll be taking it out for a 2-3 hour ride. I won't be surprised if I need to make little adjustments here and there, so I'll bring my wrenches with me.

Wow, what helpful responses--as I know we can always count on here at TE. I've got lots more to think about now, but that's a good thing.

I've got enough riding experience to know what I want in a bike as far as geometry and construction, and I haven't been able to find it in a stock bike. Though this does remind me that about 15 years ago I had a Terry that I loved and was the soul of comfort, but I lost her in a hurricane. Should've replaced her immediately, but didn't. The bike I did get--a pre-built Waterford that someone else had ordered then didn't buy for some reason, wasn't quite right then, but was OK. A couple of years ago I got a gently used Bianchi Veloce--great deal, but again, not quite right fit-wise.

Due to my short torso and short reach, I have always needed a mighty short top tube to be comfy. Another part of the problem is that as I've gotten older, I've experienced some neck and back issues that require a slightly more upright position. And...I want a steel frame. Hmmm, thinking this all through--with the help of all of your excellent advice--makes me think I ought to take another look at Terry bikes. I think Terry still uses steel.

But first, I'm going to get my fitting and continue to work on strengthening the core. Thanks a zillion to everyone for your thoughtful responses!

The only stock bikes I can be fit on are terrys and I absolutely love them. This year they are making Isis in steel in the waterford factory, it doesn't get much better than that. If I didn't already have one steel and one titanium isis, I would take a very serious look at them. They also now use two 650cc wheels on the 19" and larger models. For me what works about the terry geometry is not just the short top tube, but the slack seat tube, since I have a long femur. You can also order Isis configured with two very different kinds of gearing. Isis also accepts a rear rack and tires up to 28c, so its easy to configure for light touring or go fast riding depending on the tiress and gearing you choose. Also, they usually do a guarantee where they will ship to the bike shop of your choice, and you have 30 days to ride and return it if you aren't happy (or something like that, check for exact specs). I also found if you ring them up they are flexible about componenet substitutions within a range (i.e. it needs to be something they stock), like if you need a diff. size bar or stem than is spec'd they'll ship to your specs within the same component group.

You are an ideal candidate for a Seven, in my humble opinion.
You're well versed in bikes...you know what you've had, what you have, what worked, what didn't, and why. You know what you like about bikes, and what you don't like. You have a shape that would be well served with a custom bike. Lastly, you are committed enough to cycling to make such a purchase a worthwhile investment in yourself.
If you are set on steel - a custom Axiom (road) or Vacanza (touring) could be your ticket. But don't discount ti, especially in your area (that derned salt air). The ride is totally customizable and made to your desires.
The only FLA dealers, sadly, are in Largo and Palm Beach, and I don't believe any of those are near you. Check out their locator for a nearby dealer: http://www.sevencycles.com/Webdata/retailer_search.php
My $0.02

I had great luck with my Sampson. I thought I was going to have to go custom. I got on the phone and had about an hour conversation with Eric Sampson. He felt that a stock bike would fit me. He coached me through the measurements, asked what kind of riding I do, and on what kinds of roads. Then he put the bike together. When I got it out of the box I saw that he had upgraded the wheels and handlebar without charging me. The bike fit perfectly. A few years later I got my tri bike from his as well. I had to swap the stem and changed to a compact crankset. He didn't charge me for the swapout. His bikes run less than a lot of the others of the same quality. Check it out: www.sampsonsports.com

I'm another custom bike owner and love my Serotta. The problem for me is not a short torso but short arms. In order to get my handlebars high enough I needed a longer headtube than normal on stock frames.

I worked with a Serotta dealer in Boulder, I was lucky, he trains Serotta fitters. The bike came out so perfect that we didn't make any changes.

One thing that helped us is I had my old bike refitted before I went custom and had ridden about 5,000 miles on it. I was able to tell exactly what was good and bad with my old bike. It wasn't fit or comfort, it was the way the bike handled.

You need to really trust the fitter. At the time I was recovering from acl surgery and I'm sure my position on the bike wasn't perfect but the fitter knew how to work around the limitations and bike turned out wonderful.

After struggling for years with stock frames I finally had a bike that fit and handled well.

One thing no one has mentioned is the wait time. Some of the top builders have a 1-2 year waiting list. Companies like Serotta and Seven are more like 4-6 mos.

Serotta is well know for their steel frames. If you have a Serotta dealer in your area, try out a Fierte. They come in steel, ti and ti/carbon. They are really nice bikes and fit me. However, I chose to go custom and get the more expensive Ottrott.

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Originally Posted by Kathi

One thing no one has mentioned is the wait time. Some of the top builders have a 1-2 year waiting list. Companies like Serotta and Seven are more like 4-6 mos.

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That's true, although it's also where a good fitter/dealer can make a difference - my Seven frame was at the LBS about 4 weeks after the order went in, and I was riding my bike weeks earlier than I expected.

Ace (who doesn't post much here these days) has a custom steel Serotta which is very light and quite beautiful - painted that Harlequin blue/purple/bronze color.

What a fun process, whatever you end up deciding!

Wheee--can you hear my head spinning?

Love those 7's, and I'm thinking about Serotta too, since there's a Serotta dealer/fitter about an hour or so drive from here, and I've heard lots of good things about them. I think that pricewise, if I wanted to go with the Serotta, I might as well go ahead and get custom rather than stock because the price difference is minimal. I also have to admit that I like the romance of the name "Coeur d'Acier"--"Heart of Steel." That's no reason to buy a bike but I love it. OTOH, I was happy with my old Terry from the day I got her--until the day Hurricane Ivan took her. :(

Better get started on that income tax return--it looks like I might be spending some serious $$.

Here's my baby.

http://forums.teamestrogen.com/showt...hlight=serotta

I think the order time depends on the time of year. I ordered mine in mid April and there was a carbon shortage that year. Serotta originally told me 6 weeks but it was more like 3 mos. I don't think that will happen with steel.

Because Serotta doesn't charge for custom I also went that route. Now that I have a bike that fits well I have no interest in any other bikes.

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Originally Posted by tulip

Maybe you ladies may have helped them get it right, and I thank you for that. My BF is quite comfortable and feels like the same setup as the bike on which the measurements are based.

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Looking at your stem (noticeably longer than mine), I think they got your top tube short enough. I think mine is effectively like a 7cm stem, which is pretty short -- I had told them I wanted it to be a minimum of 9cm effective. My DH's stem is even shorter; his is almost straight up and down and hardly curves to the front at all, so is probably more like 5cm effective because they also made his top tube too long (but he didn't send his Crusoe back for correction -- he likes it fine).

Lucky you, and I am happy for you! If anything either Triskeliongirl or I told them helped other women get a better fit, I feel very satisfied indeed. :)

Emily

Emily-

I haven't measured my effective stem length, but it doesn't feel too short to me. That much was right.....of course, we had other issues:cool:

So...maybe they did learn something:)

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Originally Posted by bikerz

And the proof is in the bike - I love, love, love my Seven, I feel totally at ease on it, no more scootching around constantly to get comfortable. And it just GOES, snappy and responsive yet smooth. Plus it is beautiful! :D

* Chris Robinson at Robinson Wheelworks in San Leandro

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Hi! Just had to chime in here, when I saw you mention Seven and that you were in CA, I thought maybe you were talkin' about Robinson Wheelworks.

He's one of the top rated, if not THE top rated fitter in the country and his attention to measurements is awesome. He fit my partner for her dream bike, a Seven Axiom steel. He fit me too, but luckily (moneywise) I'm built like a guy in terms of short legs, long torso, so a standard frame worked for me. I got a Titanium Habanero, with a Campy Compact Double that I could ride all day long.

he makes a great espresso too! ;)

My 2 cents. If my bike got stolen or crashed, I would buy a custom Habanero.
Ti is a lifetime buy, as long as the hurricane doesn't take it! But knowing the salt/water won't damage it, makes it something to consider.

Brenda

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Originally Posted by motochick

Ti is a lifetime buy, as long as the hurricane doesn't take it! But knowing the salt/water won't damage it, makes it something to consider.

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That is certainly something to think about. I'm smarter about my bikes now that I've been through a big, destructive hurricane like Ivan (2004, Gulf Coast, not as widely publicized as Katrina because it didn't hit a big city like New Orleans). Now, when I evacuate, my bikes evacuate.

I like the idea of a Ti bike in theory, but I don't think my budget will accommodate it. Thanks for the suggestions, though.

Bad Ju Ju -

You might be pleasantly surprised with Habanero - a stock frame is $795, and custom is $1195 (plus shipping, of course). I've heard pretty good things about them. Of course, they aren't as well known as some of the other builders, and some folks don't like them (no specifics to offer).

CA

OMG, what gorgeous bikes those Habaneros are! I'd never heard of them--what a well-kept secret. Great--now I have yet another option to consider. :D

Please get a Habanero so I may live vicariously through you! If you shopped around for all your parts, you could build a very nice, light, custom cheap. My hubby and I have built up a tandem and saved about 5k by doing it ourselves and finding good deals on parts. Good luck in your quest!

Brenda