Cyclist Behavior

I thought that this merited discussion, but I wanted to take it out of Mr. Silver's thread

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Originally Posted by quint41

Local paper? This is the kind of thing that John Stossel (ABC - "Give me a Break") loves, isn't it?

I read the articles and a bunch of the comments posted on the newspaper website following the article.

I ride almost entirely in groups. Nothing fires me up like seeing people riding 2 and 3 abreast on busy roads, or riding through red lights. Our bikes are vehicles, and we are supposed to FOLLOW THE RULES OF THE ROAD. Those same cyclists would be screaming if cars were driving side-by-side or running red lights! (And I'm NOT saying BY ANY MEANS that is what happened in this accident! Don't get me wrong!) What I am saying is that until all cyclists behave properly and follow the rules, our ranting is going to fall on deaf ears. Yesterday, I had a car pass me as we approached a stop sign. He passed, and pulled right into the breakdown lane to prepare to turn right. Pulled right into my path. Another driver coming in the opposite direction almost broadsided me as he began to turn into a gas station on my side of the road. I am the visi-yellow queen! I am cautious. I use a mirror, keep my head up, eyes open, and always let the monster death machines have the right of way. But because drivers are so sick and tired of having to deal with pacelines blowing through intersections, and riders taking up the travel lane, I could be the one who takes the brunt of their fury, leaving two kids without a mother.

As for dedicated bike lanes and the like ... I don't know how the rest of the country works it out, but the Connecticut bike paths that I've been on leave MUCH to be desired! Cracks, frost heaves, sand, broken glass, much more hazardous for a road bike than riding the breakdown lane of a busy thoroughfare. Plus the obstacles of runners, walkers, bladers and kids with training wheels. I'm not saying they don't deserve a place to exercise as well, but most road bike riders around here find our "bike paths" more frustrating than useful.

There is strength in numbers. All cyclists need to follow the rules. Only then can we have any kind of strength.

This is kind of disjointed, but I just felt the need to say it.

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First off, I do want to say that you have to follow what ever your local laws are, so if 2 abreast isn't legal where you are at, then obviously you can't expect to do it without reprecussions, but that said I think that there are some things that Quint said that I disagree with.

Yes - you have to ride within the law, but you also have to be assertive and take your rightful place in traffic. I won't disagree that there are some drivers who may experience some frustration over this, but giving up your rights often leads to more dangerous treatment.

Since we are allowed to take a lane of travel in this state, cyclist here often find that it is much safer to do so - the risk of being right hooked by an inattentive driver becomes much, much less when they cannot conveniently pass, then forget you were there, or not realize how quickly you are moving. Many serious right hook accidents occur when the cyclist is traveling down hill and a motorist turns in front of them. I usually take the entire lane when descending for this reason. When the lane is particularly narrow it is also best to take at least 1/3rd of it. I don't know why, but when a motorist thinks he can get by without going over the center line or into the next lane he/she will often squeeze by within an inch or two of a cyclist. When it becomes neccessary to move over into the next lane much more space is given. Cyclists here are also legally allowed to ride 2 abreast and there are times when we do so. Now before you get up in arms, we try to not abuse this, if the street is narrow and heavily used we go single file, but when we have the opportunity to do so, we often ride double. Being assertive in traffic usually = being seen by traffic. Even wearing as much yellow as possible doesn't make you as visible as being in the places where traffic is expected to be does.

I also take issue with the idea that until every cyclist becomes a complete angel that the motoring community should not respect the individual cyclist. I think that its a BS excuse for drivers to roundly condem cyclists. I for one would really like it if CARS stopped running reds, stops signs, and speeding - which they do all of the time, and being that there are far greater numbers of cars on the road, more of them are doing it. I agree that it is best when ALL road users follow the rules of the road and ride/drive predictably, but I refuse to single out cyclists as a group that respects these rules less. I think cyclists proportionally are no better or worse than any other group of road users as far as breaking traffic regulations go. I also think that many motorists do not know the rules of the road and often THINK that cyclists are breaking the law when they are not.

What I think it comes down to is that each and every time a person gets into a car, they have to think and remember that they are not the only person who exists. They will probably pass hundreds of other people, in cars, on bikes, on foot and each and every one of those people is relying on car drivers to be attentive and remember that they are driving a 2000 lb weapon. I won't say that accidents will never happen, but I think a large number of them could be prevented if people would just remember this and drive as if each and every other person on the roads was a precious friend or relative to them, rather than a frustrating obstacle to be moved around at all costs (and I see people who have this attitude with everyone - other cars, pedestrians, cyclists - everyone is just in their way).

I'll agree that we can be our own worst enemies at times.
As an example, our club does a ride every saturday where there a stoplight at a "T" intersection. We go through the top of the T, and invarilably, the light will change mid-peloton. But everyone "rolls" it. While the road has a bike lane and it's striped all they way through, I still don't like doing it and can't really stop with taking folks behind me down.
Part of is that we only want to obey the rules of the road only when it's convienent for us. Then wonder why motorist get mad:confused: I always try to obey all the rules. Yeah, it does get incovienent. I had to get of my bike a couple of time yesterday to punch a crosswalk button.
Trails - i think there's a place for them, but I think there the cyclist's "barrio". plus , you've the same mentatlity. In my city, they have a bike path and walking path side by side. Where are the walkers on? you guessed it.
I really don't an easy answer, either.

Cyclists and drivers ignoring the rules of the road both make me very angry.

I live in Massachusetts, which is one of the states that specifies that cyclists must ride single file. I found it interesting that quint41 complained about cyclists riding 2 or 3 abreast, yet when I checked the vehicle code for her state (Connecticut) that it specified that cyclists are allowed to ride 2 abreast.

Cyclists taking up the driving lane by riding in bunches are not riding safely and certainly not sharing the road. Unfortunately I've seen many club riders who seem to think they are exempt from the laws.

Of course, that's not always true. I was doing a ride along the New Hampshire coast last spring when I was passed by two groups of cyclists. The first group was spread across the road, blocking traffic. Bad. The second group was riding two abreast (as is allowed by New Hampshire vehicle code), but as they approached me, they also recognized that there was a car behind them. They immediately fell into a single file, passed me, and allowed the car to pass them before doubling up again. Nice.

But - we do have the right, and we should, take up as much of the road as necessary to be safe. I won't ride on the very edge of the road. I feel that is unsafe both from a road surface point of view and from a motorist point of view. If I'm riding on the edge, motorists don't realize they need to pull out to safely pass me. My tendency is to ride 1/4 to 1/3 of the way into the driving lane. Exception to that is if I'm riding on a road that has paved shoulders. I'm quite happy to ride on the shoulders then. Maybe I shouldn't as a vehicle, but that makes sense to me.

I always stop at stop signs and at lights. And I will not pull out in front of a moving car. (Maybe I'm a little more leary of cars after my non-car-related bicycle crash a few years back, but I don't think so...).

Funny thing is, as I commute to work (in the warmer & lighter parts of the year) and stand waiting for traffic to clear, drivers will often stop for me. I still only proceed if I think it's safe. But given that I live in a state that (seems to be, or) is known for inconsiderate drivers, I find that when I respect the drivers that they also respect me (and my bike).

--- Denise

I've been pondering similar things as I think about a few of our TE members whose lives have been drastically altered due to a traumatic injury. So many members are experienced cyclists who were careful and cautious, yet were involved in serious accidents through no fault of their own. For the rest of us, I wonder: not if, but when? :confused:

Eden, i agree with you completely

Sundial, the fewer risks you take, the safer you're going to be.
A meteorite could fall on you tomorrow.
So I'm talking about statistics. Ride safely; be alert even when you have the light, even when you're in the crosswalk, on the sidewalk, or in a protected bike lane. Don't assume people can see you.
It IS tough to be vigilant ALL THE TIME, but that's going to help keep you alive. and when you do make mistakes and survive, REMEMBER what you did wrong and make it a learning experience! and we all make mistakes all the time. It's human nature. good luck

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Originally Posted by sundial

I've been pondering similar things as I think about a few of our TE members whose lives have been drastically altered due to a traumatic injury. So many members are experienced cyclists who were careful and cautious, yet were involved in serious accidents through no fault of their own. For the rest of us, I wonder: not if, but when? :confused:

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That's why they're called accidents...

My crash was not caused by a vehicle, and as far as I know I didn't do anything to cause it either. I believe I caught my tire just right (or I suppose I should say just wrong) in a crack in the road surface. I'll never know, and I've accepted that.

I don't think we should assume that we will all be involved in serious accidents. But I do think that we should be aware of where we are, and be as aware as we can be about things (the road surface, other cyclists, pedestrians, vehicles, animals...) around us.

Don't think "not if, but when?" That kind of attitude will only serve to stop you from participating in an activity that you enjoy. Be safe, be aware, don't stop riding.

--- Denise

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Originally Posted by Fredwina

I'll agree that we can be our own worst enemies at times.
As an example, our club does a ride every saturday where there a stoplight at a "T" intersection. We go through the top of the T, and invarilably, the light will change mid-peloton. But everyone "rolls" it. While the road has a bike lane and it's striped all they way through, I still don't like doing it and can't really stop with taking folks behind me down.

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If the lane at the top of the 'T' is striped all the way through, it's perfectly legal for cyclists to continue if there is no 'stop line'.

I've seen that locally, and if I am required to stop, I do. If the bike lane is not painted to indicate that I am required to stop in that situation, I don't.

East Hill

Denise, you took a nasty fall. Wow! I'm glad you are ok now. :) Thanks for sharing your experience and I hope I don't have an encounter like you. If so, I know where to turn for encouragement and advice.

I had a close call this weekend. I was riding in a large group on a familiar route that we have traveled many a time. During the last part of the ride we have to get on a 4 lane highway that has a shoulder [I]most[I]of the way. About a quarter of a mile before the intersection the shoulder ends and we have to ride in the lane until we can turn off the highway onto a 2 lane road back to our destination.

I was pulling a trailer with a tall bicycle flag AND a large caution sign attached to the back of the trailer. I had a rider to the left of me, 2 behind me at a distance and the others were drafting behind them. We all kept an eye on the traffic and all was going well until we saw a semi in the fast lane and a car in our lane, the slow lane.

The truck was being courteous to us but the car with 2 senior citizens wouldn't slow behind us, didn't attempt to move over in the other lane, and just drove alongside the truck, forcing us all off the road (where there is no shoulder). What bothered me the most was how we kept acknowledging to the driver,"Hey, we're here!" and they basically forced us off the road. All they had to do was slow down and switch lanes to get behind the truck. Grrrrrrrrr. :eek: :mad: :mad:

That's exactly the kind of situation where I feel that taking the lane is the best practice. If there had clearly not been enough space and the car driver had not felt that he would be able to squeeze by he probably wouldn't have tried it. I do understand that sometimes this leads to frustrated, irrational drivers, but safety is the main concern and you have the right to be safe. Few people are willing to intentionally run someone over, they may get angry and fume/curse etc, but many are very poor at judging when it is safe to pass. I'd prefer to raise some occasional ire than put myself at the mercy of those who are plain careless.

Accidents where a cyclist is hit from behind are pretty rare (though in this day of distracted cell phone talking/texting drivers there is some cause for concern) - the most common ones are being hit by a car pulling out of a side street or parking lot or being hit by someone passing then turning into you. Both of those type of accidents, as well as being side swiped by someone who is clueless about the width of their car can be made less of a danger by being out further in the travel lane where you are more visible and harder to squeeze by.

Eden, you have a valid point. I do have to say that the people that rode beside me were riding well into the slow lane. They did so intentionally so that drivers would have to be forced to either slow down or switch lanes.

It didn't work this time. :(

Eden, 100% agreed. It is legal to ride two-abreast here as long as it is a bike-designated area (i.e. bike lane) or in a normal traffic lane with no cars approaching. I honestly feel that cars are more respectful when you make the effort to move over for them than when you are just riding single-file to begin with.

I forget where I read it, but someone (here maybe?) recommended allowing 3 feet to your right regardless of how the road is painted. This gives you some room for error/correction and in my experience riding decently into the traffic lane when there is no shoulder means that motorists pass you like they would any other vehicle. If the road is sufficiently busy that you are holding up a line of cars, then move over and stop to let them pass (the law requires that here, and it is just courteous).

When I take the lane, I take the lane. I don't want anyone trying to squeeze by. This makes some people angry, but any bike on the road makes some people angry.

I *always* make an effort to wave/thank drivers that are courteous to me, or just not actively dangerous. I am surprised by the number of people that smile and wave back. I feel that this, along with being predictable, does more in the long run to promote good will toward cyclists than subjugating ourselves in an attempt to avoid inconveniencing motorized vehicles.

Honestly the cyclists that make me most angry are those that ride the wrong way in the bike lane/on the shoulder and those that ride on (ped-only) sidewalks...

Anne

I was very pleasantly surprised at how rarely taking the lane inspired frustration or wrath from drivers. Most of them are doing most of the driving automatically; there's a slow vehicle and I can't get around it, so I have to wait. (HOWEVER... there just isn't a lot of traffic here. If I were going to be holding up traffic for any significant distance, I'd be looking for a place to pull off, just as I would if I were on a tractor. Or I'd be tryin' to go 25 mph...)

There's another little reality: those laws we are supposed to be obeying ever so saintlily... were written for automobiles. *Most* of the time it doesn't matter. However, when a group of 12 riders on our Pedaling for Pleasure ride comes up to a four-way stop, we do *not* proceed through one at a time as individual vehicles.
We've got bike lanes some places that end... and there is the poor soul who wants to turn left... stuck to the right of cars turning right. (This happened this morning near me.) Since cars could turn right at will, none of 'em were yielding to the rider... why should they? (I believe eventually a kind midwestern soul did.) Now, what's missing is the education part; this person with the bicycle should learn to abandon the bike lane (and our brand-new laws specify this) and enter traffic to make the left turn, or turn into a pedestrian... so probably getting off the bike and asserting "right turn people need to yield to pedestrians" might have been the more efficient move.
However, it's situations like this, IMO, as well as some of our amazingly poorly designed bicycle lanes that lead to bicyclists deciding with good reason that they might as well set their own rules. And lots of people sincerely don't realize the laws about cycling - the folks tooling down the wrong side of the road...
Here's an example: a bike path going right through a bus stop. When I was cruising through campus and found this, I abandoned the bike paths for the streets on campus. I knew they weren't designed with my safety in mind (or anybody else's, for that matter). http://farm1.static.flickr.com/54/12...00a9dc71_m.jpg

Here is a link to the series of shots... and by the way, putting this online has led to some changes *much*more efficiently than Universities usually change things!

This morning in the dark after going through a green light, the road broke into two lanes. Instead of hovering on the side; i purposefully rode into the left lane.. The cars behind me happily went around me. they didn't care where i was; but if i'd stayed to the far right i would have been in the wrong place when i was ready to turn left 300 feet ahead.

Exactly Mimi.

On my commute home I encounter something very similar... one lane + bike lane splits into 2 lanes + bike lane. The split is at a light at the top of a steep hill, I turn left just before the bottom. I've started taking the left-most traffic lane at the light and staying in it until I turn. I am usually close to the 35MPH speed limit when I do that, & the cars are at similar speeds due to a light just beyond my turn. No one ever honks, & only rarely do I actually get passed.

BUT, when I used to try to cross over from the bike lane I always found it scary & difficult to see the traffic in the other 2 lanes (even with a mirror; it is a steep hill) and often I would have to come to a complete stop & wait. I got honked at *a lot* crossing the 2 traffic lanes, I think it surprised cars even though I did signal and allow for adequate space. Plus, I had to go slowly down the hill which meant that bikes going through passed me.

I used to think that since there was a bike lane I should use it, but I've found that it's easier for me and the cars I share the road with to take the left lane on that stretch of road...

Anne

There's a difference between blowing a light or stop sign, versus doing a California stop (roll-through).

When the intersection has good visibility, two-wheeled vehicles are safer rolling through. Why? We are dynamically stable but statically unstable. As soon as we come to a complete stop and put that foot down, our world of options shrinks dramatically. If something's coming toward us, there's nothing we can do but lurch forward, slowly. Not zip out of the way, not swerve to one side or the other. (Not sure whether that's true when doing a track stand... since I have never been able to do one :o )

Cops will ticket us for California stops. Per the letter of the law, in most jurisdictions they're right, and I never argue with a ticket that I deserved (not that I've had any on the velo, touch wood). But I don't hesitate (for example) to exceed the speed limit in my car when *not* speeding puts me at risk of being rear-ended, and the same is true of rolling through stoplights at less than walking speed on my moto or velo. Sometimes I'll drag a toe for the sake of appearances.

When a whole group goes through a light rather than get separated, that's a little tougher. IMO they've got to take their cue from the cross traffic. If the pack is pretty tight, drivers will almost always yield to us and let us take the light. But if not, you're right, once the light's turned red, someone in that pack needs to take the responsibility to stop and split the pack.... and if the only people with maps are in the lead pack, *they* have the responsibility to take it easy until the rest can catch back up.

There are safety precautions that, should you choose to ignore, Evolution will probable take over quite soon. When a cop asks how much you've had to drink, the right answer is not "A sh**load." Riding in the dark with no lights of any sort probably puts you at the head of this line too.

At the other extreme, there are precautions people take for events that are highly unlikely. Someone once asked me what plan I had if an earthquake happened while I happened to be climbing a steep pitch of rock. The answer is I don't even think about it because if that happens, god is mad at me personally.

The key is what category one chooses to put things in. I'm starting to think that the precautions one takes while riding a bike is somehow related to one's tolerance for chaos.

The hypothesis isn't very mature yet.

I had a very odd group cycling and stop sign experience.

There was a group of about 4 of us riding fairly spread out (over maybe a block). We came to a 4 way stop. The cars saw bikes coming and ALL held still even though they had right of way. The ride leader blew thru the stop sign, didn't even slow.

The cars held still.

Rider #2 blew thru.

The cars held still.

Rider #3 blew thru.

The cars held still.

Here comes Knot.... STOPS as the law REQUIRES at the STOP SIGN.
Smiles and waves at all the very patient and kind cars.

Counts 3 cars going 3 ways, then it's Knot's turn to go thru the intersection.
Smiles and waves and mouths "Thank you" at the 3 new cars waiting their turn and goes thru the intersection legally.

Ride leader decides Knot must be scared of cars, and drops back to give a pep talk about fear of traffic.

Uh, no... just following the law!

Now, if we'd stopped at the stop sign and tightened up our group, I would have felt that all 4 of us should go thru at once when it was our turn. But we were spread out. And the ride leader didn't even stop at the sign.

Knotted, you did the absolute right thing.

I still continue to:

• stop at stops where there are cars
• nod a "thank you" to the cars as I pass through

I continue to be amazed by the IU students that blow through stops, don't wear helmets, ride on sidewalks, ride with dogs in their lap (or on a leash)...hmmm....these kids are the future of America!

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I continue to be amazed by the IU students that blow through stops, don't wear helmets, ride on sidewalks, ride with dogs in their lap

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I see the same thing at UofM and it boggles my mind. I'm sure it's the same on every campus, too, which is scary! Yesterday evening I was passed on the right by a bike going down a somewhat steep hill. It scared me that I didn't see him AT ALL before he passed, and I could have easily hit him if I had to park or turn or just move to the right a little! :eek:

It was dark, he had no helmet, and then he completely blew through a stoplight at the bottom of the hill. Luckily there were no cars coming when he made that left hand turn on red.

Boggles my mind, I tell you!

I stop at red lights for three reasons:
- 1, because I might hit someone or be hit by someone,
- 2, because it demonstrates to the driver next to me or behind me that I'm following the rules too - thereby also diminishing the chance that he decides to "teach that damned biker a lesson" down the next stretch of road we have to share
- 3, because it's the law.

If there are no cars around in any direction, eliminating 1. and 2., I'll slow down and run the red light. I'm not THAT law-abiding, and I don't see how following the law in that particular circumstance is going to help anybody. This includes all red lights, also "just" pedestrian crossings.

I take the lane whenever I have to. I try to show that I am aware of traffic behind me, and move purposefully in to the side as soon as I feel it's safe to do so. I have stopped a few times to let a truck or a bus pass going uphill, either because it's having trouble passing or because I just feel safer standing still than pedaling very slowly with something that big breathing down my neck.

Bus drivers and taxi drivers are probably the ones around here who hate cyclists the most, so I try to make a huge point out of giving them room and getting out of their way if they're coming up behind me in a hurry, even though I'm allowed to be there.

Good for you, Knot. I would have done the same thing.

I agree that following traffic laws is just as important for cyclists as it is for drivers - for everyone's safety. One thing that's always gotten me, though, is why cyclists seem to flat out refuse to walk their bikes across an intersection when the law requires it. In Kansas, if you're riding with traffic like a car, it isn't necessary to walk across an intersection. However, if you're using a bike path that's separated from the road (ie., a wide, glorified sidewalk - which we have a few of around here), when crossing an intersection, where bikes travel with pedestrians, the law says to walk the bike across. Usually I avoid those bike paths like the plague. The driveways, turn lanes, and the fact that the paths are usually only on one side of the road make me really uncomfortable. But they're along heavily traveled streets that I don't want to ride on, either, so they're the lesser of the evils when I'm in the area.--

At intersections, I've seen cyclists just blow right across without even looking for turning cars, etc. - They're in a bike lane, right? Yikes! Drivers don't and can't always see the cyclist coming, especially when the cyclist is riding in the direction "on the left side" of car traffic, and turning cars frankly don't know what to expect even if they do see the bike. I'll admit I don't always walk my bike across but when I have, it's surprising how patient the drivers become - even though they have to wait longer. It makes the cyclist's intentions more predictable to drivers but, boy, we cyclists sure do resist taking that step.

Deb

We have one lady in our group when we do group rides that rides about the same speed as I do. Consequently I'm more often than not riding with her. What she does that absolutely unglues me is ride almost on top of the center line. I've spoken to her about it; I've fussed at her about it. Others in our club have commented to her about this. She continues to do this.

Last week-end we were on a country road and there she was on the yellow line as we approached a blind curve in the road. There was a truck coming in the opposite direction also on the yellow line. I yelled. After we got past all this, I told her again that I did not want to have to scrape her up off the pavement. She admitted that she'd had a close call. Her rationale is that she doesn't want to ride too close to the edge because she might get a flat. I've asked her how long she's had this bicycle and how many flats she's had--in 4 years she's had 2 flats! I've had that many flats in an hour.

I've also explained that our laws in OR say that a cyclist must ride as far to the right as practical. I don't know....maybe she has a death wish. Any suggestions? I really like her and enjoy her company when she's not scaring the doo-doo out of me.