Another group ride ettiquette thread

I went to the "beginner's group ride" for the first time at an LBS 2 weeks ago. The man who leads it does it as a volunteer for the store. He's a GREAT guy--older gentleman with a lot of patience with this hill slug. I took my son with me last week and the ride leader was really encouraging to him. There are a lot of regulars (about 30, he said) but of course they don't all come on the same day. None of the regulars are "beginners' anymore, it has become obvious to me. (One of the most consistent regulars did RAGBRAI.)

The route is a popular one for cyclists because there are not a lot of hills or traffic. (hard to find around here) The ride starts at 10 am, but the another group of A and B riders leaves the store at 8:00 am. Sometimes some of these better riders come out to ride with the beginner's group for the first few miles, because there is serious traffic for those miles, and I guess they just think it's safer or something, or it fits their schedule better or something. I wish they'd just go on, though.

Unfortunately, those experienced riders get out at the front at the beginning and go faster than I can go for 25 miles. This means all of the other newbies are trying to keep up. The first week, we did a 16 mph for the first 3 miles, until the group split in two: The fast people and the slow people (in this case me and one other woman). Max, the leader, stayed back with us. He's a really good shepherd and keeps up with everyone in the back and if you're way at the back he'll stay with you. (Bless his heart.) Max has said to me several times that "we lose more people that way" meaning when the fast people leave the slow people behind, the slow people get discouraged and don't come back.

The second week, the same thing happened, only this time I had my son with us. He was capable of keeping up, but when he saw that he and I and Max were slower than the rest, he got discouraged. I can get discouraged but I work on my mental state more than my son can. I ride my ride and slug up hills and coast downhill and can usually catch up. I think my son is a strong rider, but the heat got to him that day--I made him stop before the last huge hill because I didn't think he could climb back up. But he said it was about the discouragement of the group leaving us more than the heat.

So I'm torn--should I expect the people who are doing the whole ride (not the speedies who are hitching a ride with us--I wish they'd just leave before us and go) to stop and wait if we get too far apart? (They don't, unless they're still within shouting distance and Max can get them to.) Should I just not care that Max is holding up for us?

It feels like if not for me, Max would be up there with the group. That's irrational because I know he volunteered for this, but it still makes me feel bad. I think the regulars who are no longer newbies should hold back, too, for a beginner's ride. What do you think?

Karen

I go back and forth on this. I used to be one of the people that pushed the pace at our weekly Women's Ride (a relaxed group ride). But now that I take DD with me in the Burley, I'm one of the riders who are made to feel like we're holding everyone up. I get a lot of complaints from the less speedy women about the other women who are constantly increasing the pace.

Here's my feeling: It's a relaxed, beginner ride (period). The pace should be comfortable, maybe just a little challenging, for all the cyclists who show up. If there is a wide range of ability and there are enough people, then, perhaps, the groups should split in two before the start.

I think you need to ask the ride leader if this specific ride has a no drop policy. I fit does, then they should wait up for you, if it does not have a no drop policy, then unfortunately the majority will win.

One of the things we do we have set Regroup points. i.e. the folks that know the way ride there and wait for everybody. the ride leader(s) stay back with the new folks. If the folks want to go faster -that's fine. I'm still working with some of ride leaders on the "stay behind: concept, though:( It's not a "race", no matter how much people want to make it.

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Originally Posted by ehirsch83

I think you need to ask the ride leader if this specific ride has a no drop policy. If it does, then they should wait up for you, if it does not have a no drop policy, then unfortunately the majority will win.

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I think that's great advice. Our local club training rides do not have a no drop policy. There are ride leaders, but they do not take responsibility for staying back with the slowest of the group. The course is marked and they have maps if you need one. Otherwise, you're on your own. The group doesn't typically slow down to regroup although when it first started up again this season, the ride leaders would often hang back and sweep the stragglers up (like me). We now typically have discernible A and B groups, but even they have people who fall off somewhere along the way.

My point in sharing that is that if your ride leader didn't want to wait for people, there are ways to structure and lead the ride such that he wouldn't have to hang back. So, if your ride has a no drop policy, then take advantage of it; that's what it's there for. As a beginning ride, I would expect it to have such a policy. If you're uncomfortable with repeatedly holding Max back, try to memorize the route or map it yourself and tell him that it's okay to leave you. My guess is that Max likes the fact that you keep coming back; it means he's likely doing something right. Frankly, it sounds to be like the faster, experienced cyclists are the ones who are creating the issue, not you and/or your son. They really should be encouraged to just start a few minutes earlier if they're not really part of the ride.

Since I lead a beginner's ride I can tell you how I approach it. I started to lead the ride because the other rides were too fast for me. I now can ride with the moderate group but still lead the beginner/easy paced ride. We have a wide range of riders that show up for this ride. Some are very strong riders that want to socialize but still get in a good ride and some people who are truly beginners who can only go 10 mph. If we have a true beginner we usually split into two groups and the faster group goes on at it's pace. If we decide to stay together as a group the stronger riders are encouraged to go ahead at their pace but are to wait at the next turn or else turn around, come back to the group and then go on again. That way the group can stay together and everyone can ride at their own pace. Most of the time there are a few of us who will do another loop after the ride gets back to the start point. That way the faster riders don't mind going slow the first 20 miles because they know that they can go faster the 2nd 20 if they want.

I'd suggest that the beginner group not even try to stay with the fast group if you all start at one time. That would probably encourage them to just go on at their pace. If Max would ask his riders not to pass him until the group splits up that might help.

I can't imagine that a beginner ride would be a drop ride...kind of defeats the purpose of a beginner ride. I think the group should make every effort to stay together unless there is someone who is obviously much slower than the rest of the group.

I will sometimes tell the group to "remember where they came from" and how it can be prety discouraging to come to a "beginner level ride" and not be able to keep up. I try to activate the "shepherd" in at least a few of 'em. When I go to a beginner level ride, I ride my big fat bike and go slow even if I'm not the leader. I was always the last one in sports... and in my very first bike club tehre was a whole group of guys who woudl go slow for you so I'm giving it back, and I tell people that, too.
It's an ongoing thing, though. I also tell the new folks that one of the problems is that you get strong pretty fast and you don't realize it! So if they'll keep coming back, they'll be with those people in no time...

Wow thanks for the all the good replies. It's nice to know it's not just me. :)

It is a no-drop ride. The only person who doesn't drop you is Max, though. lol.

On the first ride, I was slower than a lady on a hybrid who hadn't ridden since last year. (I wasn't that slow next time--or she else wasn't there so I couldn't tell!) There's this one long slow hill that I just can't get up fast, and that's where I fell behind both times. And it's been really hot--I usually ride when it's less than 80, so I hope as time goes on I'll be able to anticipate that hill and adapt to the hotter temperatures (I wish the ride started at 7:00 instead of 10:00.)

I think I'm just going to expect to be dropped by the larger group, and ride my ride with Max, and hope some other newbies show up. I wish Max would be more assertive at the beginning about protecting the newbies from that "being left in the dust" feeling. Maybe I'll say something after I get to know him better.

Thanks, y'all!

Karen

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tuckervill

I think I'm just going to expect to be dropped by the larger group, and ride my ride with Max, and hope some other newbies show up. I wish Max would be more assertive at the beginning about protecting the newbies from that "being left in the dust" feeling. Maybe I'll say something after I get to know him better.

Thanks, y'all!

Karen

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I understand how discouraging it can feel to be dropped, and I think it would be very nice of Max to give the occassional pep talk, but even non-newbs get left in the dust sometimes because there's always someone faster. I'm not telling you that to further discourage you, but to suggest that the more you resist the urge to compare yourself to other riders, the better off you'll be. I offer the same advice here that I gave on a previous thread about "getting faster." At the end of the day, it's ultimately up to each of us to listen to our inner cheerleader instead of our inner critic. You're out there; you're riding, good for you! Plus, there are lot of skills, beyond speed, that make a cyclist a good cyclist. I would suggest focusing on them--bike handling, safety, technique, and form to name a few--when you start to feel discouraged about not being able to keep up.
K-

I signed on to post my $ 0.02 only to see Indy got to it about the same time just faster with the typing I guess...hehe

I don't want to say anything discouraging but to put a few things in perspective...I go out on group rides with very little confidence and always seem to out-do my own expectations! Yet when the next group ride comes around I once again think I am not worthy!!! Soooo...I hang back then I start to feel good and pick it up a bit....then a little more and a little more! I guess what I am trying to point out is that some of those people leaving you in the dust may have the same mental tug going on in their brains as you do!

What I have learned over the last year of group riding is that the leaders are FULLY aware of what they are there to do...LEAD! and if that means staying back with the not so fast riders that is what they do!!!! Sounds like you found a great ride leader there in Max and I am sure he has other days he can go out and hammer if he wants! So do not in any form feel bad for Max for CHOOSING to be a beginner ride leader!!!

Everyone rides at a different pace and most of the time the pace varies for each individual on a daily basis!! haha...my 1 1/2 hour commute took 2 hours yesterday!!! not my day I guess!

Max may need to re-evaluate how he addresses the "splitting" of the group but I ride every Tuesday with a group that along the way you find where you "fit" which I like because if I am feeling good I can go all out and if I think I might feel good but really don't I can hang back and go slower...
There is the fast group that starts out and there is the "sweep" rider (a few people trade off in this position) but there is always someone to ride with...sounds like you do have that!

I hope I relayed what I am trying to say...sometimes it is so hard in text! But just go out there and have fun!!! Don't worry about the faster riders...they should know they are in the beginners ride...that does not mean hammer-fest! It is them that needs to get up the gumption to join in on the more advanced rides...not you beating yourself up for riding your ride!!!

Along the lines of this post, a question...if one is riding a group ride with a sweep, is it rude to tell the sweep to go on ahead?

The club we normally ride with is very low key. There are always cue sheets. We start as a group, but quickly break into many little groups. We aren't fast (our fastest riders are about 16mph average) and we have a lot of hybrids and several heavy recumbants. Sometimes DH and I are near the back, but we're out for the ride and the conversation when someone is near our speed. Sometimes we push the pace, but most time we follow the beat (?cadence?) of our own drummer.

That said, occasionally our group joins another local group. They're fast and they love hills. We enjoy their routes and the people are fun, but...they have a no drop policy as described in this post--the fast people go out and then one person who is designated the ride leader rides with the slow pokes. The last time DH and I were the back end and the leader insisted he ride with us. He was great company, but we tried to tell him it was OK to drop us--we had the cue sheets and we knew the area. But he stayed. So, then, I felt even more guilty--he wanted to ride fast and we insulted him by telling him ride on.

Anyway, I'd like to ride occassionally with this other club because they have longer and more challenging routes, but I feel guilty about forcing someone to sweep us. Do y'all think it would it be rude when we picked up the cue sheets and signed the waiver to say it was OK to drop us? If you were leading and someone suggested they be dropped what would you be insulted?

oh, and the other thing I tell someboduy feeling like s/he's the only one at the back is to keep coming back, because next week somebody else new could come and if they don't come, *that* person will feel like the only one at the back, when there could be 15 of 'em out there, just not showing up at the smae time.

And of course, another option is to let 30 pounds of air pressure out of the other riders' tires and adjust their brakes so they're dragging :D

This has happened on rides I lead. If you have signed the waiver and have the cue sheet AND tell me that you are "officially leaving the ride" then it is OK. AMC has a very specific liability policy for this. On our second ride this year (in March) which was billed as an intermediate level spring warm up ride, with hills, 2 people came that are also leaders. Within 2 miles it was clear that they could not keep up. Our average was about 14, but these women usually lead slower paced rides. Since I was sweeping, they told me to go ahead and I did. When i emailed one of them later, she said it took them 4 hours to do the ride that took us 2! But, there was another woman there who clearly had overestimated her qualifications for the ride (all participants are screened for these rides and this one must have felt OK lying to me) and since she was from the city, she did not want to do the ride alone, as she was really unfamiliar with the area, even though there was a cue sheet. The result was the group stopped and waited for me and her at the intersections, but eventually, near the end, I told them to go ahead. It was a really miserable ride for me, but it was my job, and I stayed with her. However, on the climbs, I did go ahead and wait for her at the top.

I lead no drop rides and have for years. I make it very clear that it is a no drop beginner's ride. If people come on the ride and become disenchanted with the pace, i.e. they want to go faster, I tell them that they are on their own and to go ahead. (this usually does not happen) If they are really slow and can't go as far as the others in the beginner's group, I will ask them if they are comfortable turning back and going home on their own. If they are not, I either go with them back or someone else will opt out because they are getting tired. Our road riding is limited here so it is basically an out and back straight out ride - pretty hard to get lost. It is not a good idea to start no drop rides with other faster rides! People are competitive and if the other rides do not have the same no drop attitude, it becomes a mess.

I try to work on bike handling, rudimentary pacelines, how to drink when riding, how to be comfortable and relaxed on your bike, etc. This usually keeps people occupied if we are going too slow for them. The rule for uphill is that you can go at your own pace, but we either wait at the top or turn around and climb again if we want till everyone is back together again. This works out great. For the stronger riders, they get to climb more, and for the stronger but not as much endurance riders, they go at their own pace and get a rest at the top.

For those Arizona riders, there is a no drop ride on Sunday August 19th. PM me for more information if you are interested.

Spoke

some good points, spokewench!:)
The regroups for my ride are at the top of hills.
I always tell people if they get ahead of the leader, they're on their own ride:cool:

All this great input!

With my son last week, we did wait at the top of a big hill that we were about to descend, which would have to be climbed on the way back. There were three miles out before the turn around. Max did NOT want to leave us, and the rest of the group was down the hill and around the bend. But I know he likes to power up that hill, so I just said we'd wait at the top for the group to return. On the way back, they still hammered ahead of us, but Max, Will and I just stayed together. After that 20 minute rest, Will was raring to go, so it worked out better for him that way.

Yes, I do wish the fast people would just go on without us and not muddle up the beginner's ride. I do intend to go back every week, and I really hope there are new people every week.

Karen

a thought...any way you could go down "part" of the hill and turn around? each week go a tad bit farther?

I used to ride with an extreme hammer head group...I would be able to keep up for less than a mile (their warm-up...but I had already rode 5 miles to the start so I was already warm) The route was a 35 mile out and back...I would turn around way early and eventually they would pass me up again but it was ok cause I would race to see how close to the start-finish before they actually did catch up. My hubby was always with the faster crowd and sometime he would slow and stay with me, sometimes he would blow by me, but he would always wait at the start-finish cheering me on!

Glad to hear you are sticking with it!!!

I don't really care about the hill, but I like the idea of doing a little more each week. Maybe I can try to have a higher average or something. Next time I take the boy, I will have him better mentally prepared for the hammerheads and what to expect. I think he will be fine.

Since that first ride almost 3 weeks ago, I've done many rides longer than I usually do on my own. I just got back from a solo 20 miles, which is as long as I could go in my "big" event last season (that's the picture of me finishing in my avatar). So, I'm making progress! :)

Don't know if I'll get to ride with the group tomorrow because it's Babe Ruth World Series time and I'm working the tournament gate. I'm going to try, though. I'll be better prepared for it from this conversation, too!

Karen