pedaling with my toes down.

I went to my absolutely amazing LBS today and got fit. Even though I wasn't able to buy my bike there, they put me in the trainer and spent about 45 minutes fitting me and giving me advice (all for $12). It turns out that my biggest problem is I'm losing power by pedaling primarily with my toes. Using my toes (and the balls of my feet) also makes my hips rock a little. I guess this is pretty common with beginners. It's not surprising that I have this problem since I wear high heels constantly and have no stretch at all in my calves and hamstrings. I'll just have to really concentrate on keeping my heels down. Now I have another thing to try to think about while riding. Great.

Besides the pedaling problem (he lowered my saddle a little to help me out) things looked pretty good. He watched me pedal and did some measuring. He also shifted me here and there to show me differences. It was so much more involved than what the other store did. I'm going to head back in a month to talk about getting a slightly longer stem and narrower handlebars. He think they'll help me out, but wants me to ride a little more first. Totally worth the time and money.

Anyone have any amazing stretches for calves? Or any good tricks for keeping your heels down?

I also pedaled with my toes down. The only way I broke it was by concentrating on keeping my heels down. Now it is second nature but it felt weird when I started, I rode that way for 3 years! Once you are pedaling right you will be faster. :D

If you take spin classes or have access to a spin room during non class hours go in and find a spot where you can watch your pedal stroke in the mirror. You just have to concentrate on keeping your foot flat thru the stroke.

An easy calf stretch is to stand on a step on the balls of your feet and just drop your heel until you feel the stretch. Do one leg at a time and alternate.

All my years of horseback riding has at least paid in that aspect. Keep your heels down is drilled in to you from day one :D .

One good exercise that I think someone already mentioned is stand on an edge of a step with your toes and the ball of your foot on the step and your heels hanging over. let your weight drop down into your heels and stretch out those lower leg muscles.

YOu can also stand facing a wall about an arms length away from the wall. Put your hands on the wall and then lower your body towards the wall. Be sure to keep your feet flat on the floor.

I find spinning so much more difficult than actual riding. I've avoided it because it's so hard. I guess it's time I just suck it up and spin. I also think I might get some elastics and just pull on my feet to try to stretch them while watching tv.

Aggie-Ama- I'm happy to hear I'm not the only one! It's probably a good thing I caught it now before I got too used to pedaling the wrong way.

For both of the stretches mentioned above ("wall push-ups" and dropping your heels off a step), it's a good idea to do the stretch first with your knee straight, and then with your knee (on the leg you're stretching) bent. The stretch targets the upper part of your calf with the leg straight and the lower part of your calf with the leg bent -- it's important to hit both parts.

You can also sit on the floor with your legs out in front of you, take a stretching rope, and wrap it around the ball of your foot. Pull your toes back until you feel a good stretch. You can also stretch the tendons on the sides of your calves/feet by adopting the same position, but instead of pulling back, pull one side of the rope more than the other, "rolling" the foot to one side or the other (your toes should still be pointing towards the ceiling).

Good luck. I need to work on my pedal stroke too, I have a tendency to pedal toes-down a bit.

I have a whole collection of stretches I go through that get different muscles. Windmills (you probably remember these from gym classes), various stretches sitting on the floor with legs in a V shape, or legs straight, or doing a swimsuit model sort of pose. Toe touches, both straight leg and with crossed legs. Lunges, leg lifts (both lying down and standing)... The list goes on and on :). I find it's easier to get muscles to relax if I work over as many as I can, gently. YMMV

The main thing is to use good form and to be gentle with yourself. If you're not sure that you have good form, or you remember gym teachers encouraging you to go for more extension without talking about form, you probably want a spotter. Bad form means the stretch does little (if any) good, and sometimes bad form can make things worse (increased risk of injury mostly). Do not push until a stretch hurts a lot. This is a good way to hurt yourself. A bit of pain is ok if it goes away immediately when you stop stretching.

Spin classes are probably a good idea too. A good instructor will want you to have good form, because good form is less tiring.

I have plantar fascitis and achilles tendonitis from wearing heels five days a week for YEARS, so I know exactly how you're feeling. The stretches mentioned in this thread are all the same stretches that my physical therapist has me doing. I also recommend massaging your arches and calf muscles. I've been going to PT twice a week for six weeks and have gained some flexibility but I still have a ways to go. Start stretching now before you end up where I am! :o

a bike shop also told me i was a toe pedelar. when i went back for a repair, i told him that i was trying to correct myself and i had to constantly remind myself to change. lbs said that it's not a bad thing, just not effecient. if i was managing with the way i was used to i could continue on as it wasn't harmful. i do try every now and then to correct myself but it is hard, and my muscles seem to ache a little more when i peddle correctly. so i think i went back to my old habit/routine. i've started just doing plain stretches, on the floor arms to toes, and then legs in a V and take both hands to the one foot. that has even helped with my back pain while riding.

And, make sure to warm up before you stretch. Some gentle exercise, and even a little hot water soak of your legs/feet.

Also, a note about spinning. I, too, find it harder than actual riding. For me, it helps to remember that I can ride my own class, just like out on the bike I can ride my own ride. If you need to sit out a set or just spin easy to recover for a few minutes, do it!

Yay! 16 miles today. I tried so hard to keep my heels down, but it was hard. The ride was long, hot and in the mountains. I kept reminding myself, but would soon forget. It also, as shellyj mentioned, aches more.

The only thing that sucked was that at the end of the ride there is a long hill. By the time I got there, I was exhausted. At first, I was thinking about my feet, but by the end, my boyfriend had doubled back behind me and I was just trying to finish up and make it to the top. At the end of the ride I was happy. My boyfriend promptly told me what a great job I did- then added "but you really have to work on that foot thing. After I got behind you, I looked and it was bad." It was awful timing. He rained on my little parade. I tried to explain to him that I'm acutely aware of the problem and I know he only means to be helpful and supportive, but he really needs to work on his timing. I was tired and emotional and always react defensively to even the most well meaning advice. But geesh- couldn't he have waited and let me feel good for a bit?

The ride, all in all, was fun. It feels great to ride longer and feel stronger. It will also be son nice when my form improves. It turns out that a female racer, who works at our lbs, has a spinning class where you bring your own bike and work on a trainer. She also occasionally takes the group into a local park to work on stuff. I think it'll give me a nice little boost on building my strength and a great opportunity to work on form. I'm going to check it out this week.

16 miles! I can't believe it!!

Doesn't it feel great when you are able challenge yourself like that!!!

I have never biked with someone that is a serious biker and I am scared to think what they would point that I am doing wrong.

I have already learned so many things here that I am trying to adapt to my riding.

my former Team in Training coach called peddling with your toes, "Sissy-la-la" peddling. I found that very funny and it was also a big problem of mine when I first started riding. We'd say, "she's doing the Sissy la-la," and the other person would laugh but would quickly correct their form. No one wanted to be doing a "Sissy la-la!" . . now I only seem to have this problem with my left foot but ususally keep my heel down on the right . . there's always room for improvement! HA HA

one thing i focus on while pedalling and trying to keep my heels down more is to mentally focus on the pull in your foot. i know this sounds contrary to popular belief, but hey, it works for me.

when i want to have a heels down, solid pedal stroke, i focus on pedalling in a rectangle. hear me out.

1) obviously be conscious of the angle in your ankle (i.e. heels up or down)
2) next i focus on trying to pull my cleat off the bottom of my road shoe. in doing this, i'm focusing on pulling backwards straight from 3 o'clock to 9 o'clock.
3) then i focus on again trying to rip the cleat off but by pushing my foot straight across from 9 o'clock to 3 o'clock.

[i know everybody says "pedal in circles" but if you can do this technique effectively, you actually are pedalling in a circle and also a more efficient one because there's more force being generated around the entire circle instead of mainly just the downward portions. ;) ]

this may sound weird but hop on the bike and give it a try. if it doesn't work for you then oh well. :p it works for me. :)

I found that once I was aware of my sissy-la-la pedaling on toes thing, I just couldn't do it so much anymore- I became too aware of it and kept correcting it automatically. After a while of this awareness you just start doing it less and less. Toe pedaling seems to very really common when you're starting out.

It's not a big deal and we really shouldn't feel bad when people point it out to us. ;) It's just one of many many efficiency biking tips we'll hear -and benefit from!- over the years from various helpful people.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lisa S.H.

I found that once I was aware of my sissy-la-la pedaling on toes thing, I just couldn't do it so much anymore- I became too aware of it and kept correcting it automatically.

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I didn't even realize I was doing this until I read this thread. Now, I'm constantly aware of it. :cool: Thanks for sharing this tip!

Today I rode and as I rode I murmurred, over and over again...:

Ankles down
ankles down
ankles down
Nice straight back.

I probably sounded a little creepy to anyone who happened to be up at that ungodly hour.

Interesting thread. Is this a [relatively] new technique for clipless pedals/pedalling v.s. toeclips? Or maybe just new thinking?
I remember in the 70's we were all trained to ride toes-down. We used toeclips and old-school cleats, but the technique was definitely toes-down about 30 degrees. Pedalling with the feet flat was snickered at, now it seems to be the opposite.
I can't remember the rationale for riding toes-down; something about muscle/spinning efficiency...or something. I still ride that way now. I must look like a total gomer, but it's a hard thing to change after 30+ years.

OK, I guess I'm exposing my ignorance here (eek!) but why does pedaling with your heel up or down make a difference?

If you try cycling on a computrainer which displays your power at every moment of your pedal stroke, you can see the difference in power output between different pedalling techniques. The following is NOT what you want to achieve. By pedalling properly, as if you were slipping your feet into slippers (on top) and scraping chewing gum off the sole of your shoe (at the bottom) you'd achieve a perfect or nearly perfect circle, with equal power at all times. If you stand up and mash the pedals, you'll get a perfect... peanut. :)

As shellyj commented it is a tad uncomfortable when you first start correcting yourself, especially if you have a stretching issue in the calf. And there is nothing really wrong with riding this way, you just aren't getting the most out of your energy.

The other thing to try if you are using clipless pedals is to feel yourself actually pull up on the pedal. If you are riding with toes down you will be pushing more than pulling on the pedal.

kfergos- It is all about efficient use of the energy you need to pedal. Hopefully someone will give a much more technical explaination, but the essential part is you use less energy pedaling with you heel down.

I don't have clipless pedals, but I tightened up on the clips and worked it to the same effect.

It really does "feel" more powerful.

I can feel a big difference when I correct myself. When I get really tired, I'm usually way up on my toes and it actually relieves my legs a little when I notice and make the change.

indigoiis- I also talk to myself when I ride. Sometimes it's mantras to remind myself of technique, other times I curse the stupid hill for being so long, steep, etc. Sometimes, I just make up stupid songs to try to distract myself from how hard I'm working. I've been caught by people passing me a couple of times. Talk about embarassing!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Grog

By pedalling properly, as if you were slipping your feet into slippers (on top) and scraping chewing gum off the sole of your shoe (at the bottom) you'd achieve a perfect or nearly perfect circle, with equal power at all times.

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New mantra: scrape the gum, slipping into slippers. Now if only I could get coordinated enough to do each at the same time. Sounds like a pat your head and rub your tummy type action. :)

Correction, No such thing as pedaling circles.

Riding with your heels down is incorrect for most people except that it worked for Greg LeMond. It is dead mass below the axis of rotation.

You want to maximize the downward force component (ie impulse) between the 2 and 7 o'clock position of pedal stroke.

Their is a paper by Ed Coyle et. al., that showed that when subjects were matched for physiological attributes (ie vo2 max) that the difference between the state level cyclists and the national class riders were that the national level cycles, had a greater impulse in the downward potion of the pedal stroke. The better cyclists didn't drop the heels or 'pedaled' circles.

Kayla

I got the heels down lecture today, too, when picking up my new ride. When I rode horses, I heard the same thing. Glad to know it is not just me! I will prob spend some time on the trainer and on some easy rides trying to ingrain this in my muscle memory. Thanks for the thread- lots of good tips here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aggie_Ama

I also pedaled with my toes down. The only way I broke it was by concentrating on keeping my heels down. Now it is second nature but it felt weird when I started, I rode that way for 3 years! Once you are pedaling right you will be faster. :D

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Think about pushing down with the ball of your foot, ie concentrating all your force (or pressure) through the ball of your foot on the downstroke, then release the pressure, and snapping the heel up on the upstroke between 7 and 12 noon.

Think about the biomechanics of the pedal stroke. Think about more force into the pedals.

without stirring up the pot, the optimal pedal stroke (from an energy efficiency and power output pov) is neither toe down nor heel down. there is a slight ankling movement that happens throughout the pedal stroke. however, I understand that most of you are referring to an extreme toe down technique (what I refer to as bike ballet).

toe pedalling engages the smaller muscles in your lower leg as opposed to the larger muscles in your upper leg (and smaller = less force produced). in addition, and extreme toe-down technique will place stress on your achilles tendon which can lead to an over-use injury.

one of the most common reasons I see cyclists toe pedalling is that their saddle position is too high, causing them to over-reach at the bottom of their pedal stroke.

yes, it can take some time to develop the most efficient pedal stroke, but it's time well-invested in the long-run.

hope this helps!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by indigoiis

I don't have clipless pedals, but I tightened up on the clips and worked it to the same effect.

It really does "feel" more powerful.

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I don't know how you are getting out of the pedals! Of course I fell as many times with toe clips as clipless pedals, so I am obvoiusly not very good at getting out of them!

I keep thinking of more things on this topic... The fitter that pointed out that I was pedaling toe down said it should feeling like a wave motion. Of course Kayla Marie gave a very insightful explaination of what I was trying to say!

If you ever have a dog that chases you while riding in the country (I had 2 German Shepards take out after me last week:eek: ), you will learn very quickly not to ride on your toes. You will also learn that no matter how tired you think you are, you can go into a full standing sprint for quite awhile. At least until the dog gives up the chase.

I was thinking about this again when I was out riding yesterday. Because I also tippy toe, I was seeing what worked for me- I found that if I felt in my mind that I was doing a really exagerrated heel down...I was just about right. If I looked at my feet, they were nowhere near as extreme as I imagined them to be. So even though I may sound like I am overcorrecting, because things are so tight in my lower legs and because I so very badly want to tippy toe, I am turning out about right. When I had this problem horseback riding, I did stretches because part of the problem was that various lower leg muscles were very tight, so that would prob help with biking. Too bad I hate stretching!

What's interesting for me is that when I did not think of ankles down, I got charley horses in BOTH calves. When I focused my energy down the leg and straightened out the feet, I got no charley horses.

So is it mind over matter? Can I actually stop charley horses with my brain?

spooky!

I think when you pedal with your toes pointed down you are using your calf muscles more. You probably get more power from the thigh muscles.

As mentioned by wiseowl, I too notice than when I *think* i'm having my heels way down I am actually just riding with my feet flat.

Here's a little unrelated pedaling tip I recently discovered on my own:
When I am going up a LONG LONG hill and am in my lowest gear, and have used up just about all my reserves and my leg muscles are burning and are about to konk out on me altogether.... my "last ditch" trick is to just stop using my upper leg muscles altogether and instead I just concentrate on straightening my knees to complete each pedal stroke. It's amazing how this can actually work to keep you spinning up the hill. You won't have a lot of power, but it will keep you moving and give your leg muscles a chance to recover for a minute. It's vaguely like a Michael Jackson "moonwalk" technique- but not so weird! ;)
I use it when I have no reserves left and want a minute to let my leg muscles recover while not actually stopping on the uphill. It does not work on steep hills though- only long inclines. It's a nice little extra trick to have up your sleeve. :cool:

today was my first ride on my new (first) bike. Many weeks ago I was clueless about cycling and about bikes. Thanks to the many wonderful ladies on this thread, I was able to get through my test rides and purchase not feeling like a total green dufus. During my ride today, this was one of the threads that I remembered and paid attention to my foot position on the pedals and mentally found myself correcting them a few times.

Lisa S.H. - thank you for another tip that I will file away in my brain. I am very apprehensive about tackling any type of climbing and will put that on hold until I build more leg strength but I will remember that tip.