Garmin Edge 305 Question

OK, I'm not a techie. I read the information, but it just doesn't seem to sink into my brain. I think a new bike requires a new Garmin cyclocomputer. Right? :rolleyes: I've looked and looked, but can't find the answer to this burning question.

If I get one, I want to use it for both my bikes. I know I need a second bike mount and sensors, but I'm stuck on the calibration. Does this thing calibrate wheel size automatically or do you have to program in the wheel size? Or do you even need a wheel size? My bikes have different size wheels. Will this be a problem? Is it even possible to change back and forth between bikes? Help! :o

My friend just got one and had it on her bike for last nights ride. It was sooo coool! :D bikerHen

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Originally Posted by bikerHen

OK, I'm not a techie. I read the information, but it just doesn't seem to sink into my brain. I think a new bike requires a new Garmin cyclocomputer. Right? :rolleyes: I've looked and looked, but can't find the answer to this burning question.

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The answer is YES.

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Originally Posted by bikerHen

If I get one, I want to use it for both my bikes. I know I need a second bike mount and sensors, but I'm stuck on the calibration. Does this thing calibrate wheel size automatically or do you have to program in the wheel size? Or do you even need a wheel size? My bikes have different size wheels. Will this be a problem? Is it even possible to change back and forth between bikes? Help! :o

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I don't think it required any calibration in the real sense - like measuring out wheels. I don't remember programming anything in, although the user data section is very easy to use. You can program for different bikes, inputting weight of the bike, etc. - but I never even do that. I just switch the unit from one mount to the next (it came with 2 mounts).

I use it on both my MTB and road bikes. The GPS tracks speed and distance. The cadence/wheel mount sensor thing acts as a backup for that GSP speed/distance data. 2 of my 3 bikes don't even have the cadence attachment and all works well.

ooh...I just installed one of these--love it! I felt a little guilty spending that much money on a bike computer since my top speed average is like, 17 mph, but I love me some gadgets.

what maillotpois said is totally right--I just wanted to confirm that it does autosense your wheel size, but there's an option to configure it manually for each bike as well. There's a chart in the manual that tells you the numbers to put in based on your wheel circumference and thickness(? is that the right word). But like she says, the speed sensor on the wheel is only used if the GPS is unavailable or if you choose to turn it off for a trainer workout.

Overall, the installation/use is super easy and user-friendly. The biggest problem I had with the install was that the GPS "head" absolutely refused to see the cadence sensor. I turned the option off and on, rescanned, put the head right next to the sensor...nothing. My LBS guys were able to fix it by going into the settings for "Bike Computer 1" and selecting cadence as one of the display fields for that profile. After that, it went out and found the sensor and all was well. I guess it's a pretty common problem, so just a heads-up.

Oh, and mine came with two bike mounts as well, so all you'll need is an additional sensor to use it on two different bikes. And really, that's only if you want to measure cadence, or see distance or speed on indoor/stationary workouts.

(Also, if you need more incentive to take the plunge, you can get a $75 rebate on the Edge 305 for signing up for the Powerbar newsletter. The offer's good on purchases made from 6/1/07-11/30/07, so your friend's eligible too if she still has her receipt and original box/UPC.)

Yep, Malloit has the answers, but....just to vote...absolutely a new bike screams "buy me a GPS" :D

Only my primary bike has the pickup unit (cadence and wheel). My secondary bike just has the handlebar mount on it. I've even taken the second handlebar mount and GPS unit with me on vacation and used the GPS on a rental bike. Very convenient toy.

You all are really stretching my resolve to wait just a bit before making another major purchase! :D It really is a cool and useful toy, isn't it! Thanks for your answers. It's good to know I get two mounts. And I'll be sure to tell my friend about the rebate, and maybe use it myself! :rolleyes:

Cadence is something I use all the time, and find it very helpful. I also need it for the winter months on the trainer. It's one of the reasons I like the 305, it's has everything I "think" I need. bikerHen

I have the Forerunner 305 and really dislike it but the Edge is supposed to have better elevation readings which is one of my major complaints. That said, I'm thinking seriously of taking the Forerunner back and getting the Edge 305 though I am hesitant about the latter part at least based on my experience with the forerunner.

The Garmin HRM isn't always accurate, especially going downhill. You can get big jumps in your readings if you wear synthetic jerseys and they flap in the wind (!). The HRM band is also way too big for me even at the smallest setting which means I have to tie a knot in it and so can't wear it if I am carrying anything on my back. Not typical for most people's training rides, I realize.

The Garmin software also leaves a lot to be desired and they are VERY slow to update it, including motionbased, their web-based software. BTW, I'd be very hesitant to sign up for that. I did and the site is down a lot, but worse I've gotten unnerving login errors from other accounts. :eek:

The good stuff...it's great to be able to look at a map of your rides, see totals, averages, etc. It captures just about everything, the accuracy just leaves a lot to be desired in the case of the Forerunner. They are really cool devices in theory but they are not without their bugs. I just don't know if there is anything better?

The Edge 305 has a barometric altimeter auto-calibrated by GPS, but I've still read a lot of reports of elevation jumping suddenly by thousands of feet, etc.

Can anyone confirm/deny these accounts?

But in short, a definite yes to the new bike deserves new toys rule! :)

Anne

I've spent most of the day researching bike computers and I just ordered one. I can't wait until it gets here and I can play with it:o :) There is a $75 rebate http://www.powerbar.com/nirf/cm2/upl...rminRebate.pdf Just under $200 for the cadence/HR combo.

From talking with Edge 305 owners (and sometimes comparing their data to my own Polar and ciclo), it appears that after running the elevation data through the Garmin Training Center software, cumulative elevation gain/loss reports compares consistently with other barometric altimeters such as VDO, Polar, Ciclo, etc.

Forerunner 305 data which only uses GPS for elevation can report the elevation correctly, but not the cumulative gain/loss. I've had it report as much as 3x the actual.

The Edge 305 with barometric and GPS has very accurate elevation data when run through Garmin Training Center (the standard software that comes with the unit). Running it through something like Motion Based will give you an artificial increase in your elevation data.

I have only had one weird elevation anomaly with the Edge - and 7 of 10 people I was riding with that day had Edges and all reported this weird anomaly. We were climbing and the units showed a steady descent. We figure we must have been in some sort of satellite black hole. Overall, the data given after the ride was accurate (the mileages and GTC climbing data were consistent with prior Polar and Ciclo readings for this ride - just this one stretch of road (with no tree cover even) where the readings were wonky. That's the only time I have seen something funky with the elevation for the edge.

Oooo... freaky mp.

I've heard that the Edge 305 is much more accurate vs. the Forerunner for elevation. But - even the Edge has its idiosyncrasies - like and out and back route showing different start and end elevations when you are in the same place. Overall, it's been pretty good.

I didn't think you could put wheel sensors on more than one bike. I currently use my Edge 305 on 3 bikes - the road, the commuter, and the mtb. I have the sensor only on the road (plus the cadence pickup). I would think if you DID have two sensors, you would need to switch the bikes tracked, so it could auto-sense the proper wheel. Or, maybe since it's automatic, it wouldn't matter? Not switching the bike would not really alter key metrics like speed or distance, since that would be tracked off the satellites, whether you had the sensor or not.

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Originally Posted by Regina

But - even the Edge has its idiosyncrasies - like and out and back route showing different start and end elevations when you are in the same place. Overall, it's been pretty good.

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I think that's true of any barometric altimeter and just reflects the air pressure changes through out the day.

This year every one of us using different barometric altimeters got consistent readings on Party Pardee. However, they were different than we all received the year before with barometric altimeters. Weather was very different a year apart.

Yes, BikerHen, you need a new computer for the new bike! After all, you didn't buy new wheels for your road bike!

Costco's website has the bundle at a very good price. With the rebate, it's practically free. :D

Incurable romantic that I am, I suggested that the Edge 305 would make the perfect 20th wedding anniversary gift. :p (Isn't a bike GPS the traditional gift for the 20th anniversary?) :rolleyes: (The order was placed today so I will have it before the anniversary, but in time for the 111-mile Utah Lake Century Epic Ride.)

I'm going to have to upgrade the OS on my Mac, however...

Alex ("A GPS is Forever")

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Originally Posted by SadieKate

I think that's true of any barometric altimeter and just reflects the air pressure changes through out the day.

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Really?? Wow. Hmmmmmmmm.....

And that air pressure change might explain my "issue" - we were transitioning from a rainstorm to sunny weather.

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Originally Posted by Alex

Yes, BikerHen, you need a new computer for the new bike! After all, you didn't buy new wheels for your road bike!

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Yet! :D There is always next year. :rolleyes: bikerHen

Bicycles need birthday gifts also. :p

I have a forerunner 305 and love it. It is a tad large in both size and chest strap, but I've never had either slip once tucked/set where I want them. I am 5'3" and thin build. I have heard other women simply hack a piece off the elastic strap and resew it. I don't know how to sew but if the band ever stretches I will do that. I use the last hole on the watch band but it never moves around which was my initial fear. I got the Forerunner since it is a bit more multisport friendly.

I use Motionbased's free service, and have it set to topo correct for my GPS altitude (it is one of the upload preferences). I have had a few errors here and there with MB but nothing that waiting a little while didn't solve. I want to get a bike mount for it. I think either one offers a lot of features.

Extremely glad I got it and I bet your bike will love an Edge too. ;)

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Originally Posted by maillotpois

The Edge 305 with barometric and GPS has very accurate elevation data when run through Garmin Training Center (the standard software that comes with the unit).

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Is the standard software Mac-compatible?

Looks like it.
http://www8.garmin.com/products/trainingcenter/

There is a forum on www.motionbased.com which a ton of info also.

I just ordered an Edge 305 from Amazon for a great price. Thanks, bikerhen, for getting this thread started so I found out about the rebate. Edge prices are the lowest I've ever seen them.

BikerHen, I hear your new bike screaming for an Edge 305. :eek:

I got one a few months ago through Amazon and LOVE it. I am a total hillslug and slowpoke (see avatar) and I know I am not using it to its full capability. If I were a "techno-geek with time" rather than just a "techno-geek", I would figure it all out. :rolleyes:

I splurged for the HR monitor/cadence features and recommend it. For me it was "duh, I KNOW my heartrate climbs as the elevation climbs", but it was interesting to see it on a graph. I learned it doesn't climb as much as I thought it would. It is also fun to see progress.

Do it, do it, do it. . .

Best Father's Day gift I ever got!

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Originally Posted by tygab

I have a forerunner 305 and love it. It is a tad large in both size and chest strap, but I've never had either slip once tucked/set where I want them. I am 5'3" and thin build. I have heard other women simply hack a piece off the elastic strap and resew it. I don't know how to sew but if the band ever stretches I will do that. I use the last hole on the watch band but it never moves around which was my initial fear. I got the Forerunner since it is a bit more multisport friendly.

I use Motionbased's free service, and have it set to topo correct for my GPS altitude (it is one of the upload preferences). I have had a few errors here and there with MB but nothing that waiting a little while didn't solve. I want to get a bike mount for it. I think either one offers a lot of features.

Extremely glad I got it and I bet your bike will love an Edge too. ;)

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I have the forerunner 205. So I don't have the HRM. But I have freakishly thin wrists. I can adjust the watch on my wrist by using the triangle past the last hole. But I've found it's more comfortable the wear a sweat band on my wrist and wear the forerunner over the sweat band. I do the same thing to mount it to my bike. Fold the sweat band over the bar and then strap the forerunner on.

Agree with all the plus recommendations above.

As to MB, they got slammed with the sudden big demand exceeding their expectations. I know they have added servers and thing s seem to have calmed down.

Thanks everyone. Everyone here is so knowledgeable and I really appreciate it. It makes sense that it would have little blips and that's probably unavoidable, I just get frustrated with the Forerunner because the elevation figures are *so* inflated, even with the Motionbased 'correction'; It just seems like the elevation gain/loss 'feature' shouldn't be included if its so wildly inaccurate.

Sarah, your comment about the grade had me laughing because my sister & I were riding this weekend in a mountain canyon and when the pain got too bad we took our minds off of it by comparing Garmin grades (she has a 205). 35%. -2%. -15%. 29%. 2%. -5%. 135%. Funny, it felt like steady climbing to me. :D

SadieKate, I think that you are right about the elevation data itself being pretty accurate. I took my Forerunner to South America with me to mark points so that I could map them when I got home and found that the elevation was pretty close to what was marked.

I just ordered an Edge 305 and am so excited to be able to set real climbing goals this month. Now if only I can figure out what they should be...

Anne

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Originally Posted by onimity

I just ordered an Edge 305 and am so excited to be able to set real climbing goals this month. Now if only I can figure out what they should be...

Anne

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Just remember when calculating your climbing, if you are riding into a headwind while climbing (like I was this morning-a huge "canyon" wind), remember to double the total elevation to determine how much you actually climbed :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
:p :p

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Originally Posted by onimity

. . . I just get frustrated with the Forerunner because the elevation figures are *so* inflated, even with the Motionbased 'correction'; It just seems like the elevation gain/loss 'feature' shouldn't be included if its so wildly inaccurate.

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Tell that to Garmin. I talked to them earlier this week as the Forerunner is clealy marketed to multi-sport athletes including cyclists. They said that they "had so many products" that there was no way to state in the software manuals or make it clear on MB's website that gain/loss data obtained from Forereunner data (GPS only) is completely useless. I loved the "only way to keep up in the marketplace was to go to market with known problems and try to address them later." And "if you had called us we would have told you not to use it for cycling if you want gain/loss data." So I asked him why it had biking settings at all. As you'd expect, more BS.

I asked how to get release notes that tracked bug fixes. "We don't do that. We have too many products."

I told him (in nicer words) that he was full of it and that the company I worked for could put him in the shade with software products and ability to track changes, and had the financial success to prove it could be done.

However, other than this guy's BS, the reps have all been ready and willing to help. They replaced my original Forerunner when it had problems. They helped with the software updates on my new one when I told them I was a bit gun-shy after my first experience. The MB folks have emailed me back when I sent questions. I've also had good experience with a borrowed Garmin 60csx. Because of this I'm willing to take a risk on another Garmin product.

I'm going to go find an email from a geeky friend who explains the GPS-only elevation gain/loss problems and post just because someone may find it interesting.

gw_12 (whom I like to call geek_12) over on bikejournal sent me this explanation of GPS-only elevation gain/loss problems:

Consumer grade GPS is just not very good for accumulated elevation measurement (that’s why survey grade GPS units still cost about $5000). As you probably know consumer grade GPS can be off in the horizontal plane by 5-10 meters or so at any time. In the vertical plane they can easily be off by 2 to 3 times that much. While that drift in the horizontal plane may not produce an unacceptable error in the distance measurement of a bike ride (lots of horizontal travel vs relatively small errors), 2 to 3 times that error in the vertical plane over the same amount of time and much less vertical travel makes the accumulated elevation data practically worthless. Note that the indicated elevation is typically with 50 feet of actual, but varies over the ride from -50 to +50. The system has no way to discriminate between actual climbing and descending and error drift.

I, personally, have experienced gain/loss data 3x the actual with the Forerunner. So the deals to be had on the Edge make it worth having both.

The FR has been useful to Izaak the Wonder Poodle as he is currently racking up the mileage to the coffee shop and back. And I'll use it for snowshoeing once we move to Bend. It will definitely come in handy. Besides, I'm sure that yellow has dreams that someday she'll convert me to trail-shuffling.

So wait.
Let me state what I think may be obvious to some, but not to me.
SadieKate...
the gist of what you are saying is:
ForeRunner: GPS elevation only. Much variation/error. Essentially worthless for elevation readings.
Edge: GPS and barometric elevation readings. Some variation/error. Generally more accurate than GPS alone. Not perfect, but okay for consumer grade.

(that is the general sense I've gotten from other folks over the year I've had my Edge, at any rate).

I love my Edge and have had very few "anomolies" other than a few artificially high heart rates. The elevation data has been fairly accurate so far and I run my data thru the garmin software as well as Motionbased. Motionbased has never been down when I've been online yet although I have not yet upgraded to a full account yet. I may once dh starts using his garmin as well.

I DID set my garmin up with my bike data and it was fairly easy to input the weight of the bike and the wheel size from their chart. It is possible to set it up for 3 different bikes so next time I use my MTbike, I'll add that as well. I also use my garmin for running - I just carry it in my hand or pocket. It was awesome to have it on our bike tour in France this summer - so cool to be able to see the graphs and maps online.

FWIW, DH and I bought two Garmins for ourselves as a wedding present last March... :D

Enjoy yours!

Regina, I've done a little editing. Make sure you differentiate between the measurement of the elevation of a certain point on your route (i.,e., at the top of Mt Diablo it is X feet high) and the calculation of the total feet you've climbed (i.e, I just rode up Mt Diablo and climbed X feet total). These are two different things.

ForeRunner: GPS elevation only. Much variation/error on gain/loss calculations (only available once you've downloaded your data to the Training Center or MotionBased). Essentially worthless for elevation gain/loss readings but fairly accurate for measuring the elevation of a certain point.

Edge: GPS and barometric elevation readings and gain/loss calculations. Some variation/error. Generally more accurate than GPS alone. Not perfect, but okay for consumer grade.

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Originally Posted by SadieKate

Regina, I've done a little editing. Make sure you differentiate between the measurement of the elevation of a certain point on your route (i.,e., at the top of Mt Diablo it is X feet high) and the calculation of the total feet you've climbed (i.e, I just rode up Mt Diablo and climbed X feet total). These are two different things.

ForeRunner: GPS elevation only. Much variation/error on gain/loss calculations (only available once you've downloaded your data to the Training Center or MotionBased). Essentially worthless for elevation gain/loss readings but fairly accurate for measuring the elevation of a certain point.

Edge: GPS and barometric elevation readings and gain/loss calculations. Some variation/error. Generally more accurate than GPS alone. Not perfect, but okay for consumer grade.

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I agree. like I said, I got myself the forerunner 205. I don't really care about elevation and climbing data. I don't like to be bothered with HRM and cadence. On the bike I really only want to know distance and speed, so I really only use my cateye. I've strapped the forerunner on a few times to map out a route. I got the forerunner because I wanted it for running. Good basic GPS for distance and speed and easy to wear when I run. Anyone buying one of these products needs to understand their abilities and limitations and know what they want from them.

Hey SadieKate,

I did write to Garmin about the elevation gain/loss issue and their suggestion was to use Motionbased :( but I will write to them about the way they market the product and why I'm returning it. If you look at the feature lists you would not understand that the Forerunner doesn't track elevation gain/loss accurately. I would have purchased the correct device in the first place if they had been clear about that or not included that as a 'feature' of the device.

I agree that simple things like release notes would be nice. You'd think that with so many products they might have some organization or standard processes... :rolleyes: Actually, I've always been really impressed with their device software.

Lifesgreat,

Don't I wish it could track the wind speed!! It should count as uphill when you have to pedal going downhill just to keep going!

This is from their help page:

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Choosing to apply the Tune-Up features here will apply the information automatically when submitting from the Inbox to the Digest. You may always override this preference by choosing to edit the activity.

* GPS Corrections - cleans up location information that can sometimes produce erroneous values
* MB Gravity - cleans up elevation information by cross-referencing the location with an elevation dataset

Please note that MB Gravity is not necessary with the Edge 305 as it has a built in Barometric Altimeter.

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I think the algorithms are probably well done. I suppose the only way to know that for sure is to do a side by side with the Edge. But, for my purposes I am believing it as accurate enough.

Edit: haha we just may get to do this as I am convincing my husband to get his Edge with the good deals out there... [he has been coveting my Forerunner data].

Tygab, these are the notes from two rides I did recently. I've called Garmin about the inaccuracies and they confirmed that the ForeRunner gain/loss data is incorrect whether you run it through GTC or MB.

Mt Tam mtb ride of 24+ miles:
FR 305 in GTC = 6,456
FR 305 in MB with gravity correction = 4,613
maillotpois' Edge 305 = 3,247 (and based on similar rides and my legs, this is correct)

Lake Solano road ride of 21+ miles on a nearly flat road:
FR 305 in GTC = 1,551
FR 305 in MB with gravity correction = 1,139
Polar and Ciclo data from past rides = 400-405 (and verified by the almost flat road)
MP's Edge 305 = 547

Jobob and Trekhawk could probably give their results from this last ride also if you feel that you need more stats for comparison. I've used a Ciclo and a Polar for a few years now. All of my results are comparable to Edge results. Forerunner results are from another galaxy far, far away.

Hmm. That's unfortunate... thanks for posting the stats. Might have to chat with the folks in Olathe about this...

:(

Yea, my ride last Saturday was similar. It was an organized ride and the listed elevation gain was 5,500 feet. Seems about right given the terrain, it was pretty much flat then straight up.
Garmin Training Center gave me 11,846 ft
Motionbased rounded that down to 8,932 ft.

That's a good idea to convince your husband that he needs the Edge. :) The deals are really great, especially with the rebate. (Thanks for that!)

Anne

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Originally Posted by keeper

I've spent most of the day researching bike computers and I just ordered one. I can't wait until it gets here and I can play with it:o :) There is a $75 rebate http://www.powerbar.com/nirf/cm2/upl...rminRebate.pdf Just under $200 for the cadence/HR combo.

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Hi there,

I am bikerhen's friend who rode with her on her on Monday night with the Garmin Edge. I had no idea there was a rebate! So, thanks! I still have my receipt and box and I am learning a little more about my new toy every time I ride. Other than having to remember to push "start" every time, which I'm not used to, the gadget has been great. I love the computer charts! Now that I am going to get money back on this, I love it even more! Also, thank you to Bikerhen who sent me the e-mail telling me to check the posts here. You guys are great!

Ooh, tres kewl news.

I own a Forerunner with HRM. I just bought the Edge with cadence.

According to the Garmin web site and some sleuthing on motionbased, I can pair the Edge with the same HRM strap.

In spite of my own ignorance, I lucked into something good.:)

Well I did it! :D Ordered one this morning! Thanks for all your encouraging words! :eek: :D :D The new bike wants it and the mount is broken on the computer on my road bike. So I really do need a new toy! I mean computer! :rolleyes: bikerHen

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Originally Posted by SadieKate

Ooh, tres kewl news.

I own a Forerunner with HRM. I just bought the Edge with cadence.

According to the Garmin web site and some sleuthing on motionbased, I can pair the Edge with the same HRM strap.

In spite of my own ignorance, I lucked into something good.:)

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so SadieKate-
Is this the one that you ordered? http://www.amazon.com/Garmin-305CAD-...6084594&sr=8-4

And then you are just going to use the heart rate strap from your Forerunner?

Hmm.... I have a Forerunner 305, and I like it a lot, but have been tempted by the Edge also... and at that price with the $75 rebate it seems too good to be true! Might have to spend a bit more $$......

E.