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I haven't seen any English language news on this, but apparently Vino tested positive for homologous blood transfusion after the TT:
http://www.lequipe.fr/Cyclisme/breve...171249Dev.html
Of note - the Châtenay-Malabry lab is again involved (maybe they're the only lab in France?).
It sounds like he's quitting the Tour now. (At the end - my French isn't 100%).
ETA: Now it's hitting the English language news:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2007...ul07/jul25news
I have not said this publicly, but I had a feeling he was doping. Time will tell.
Right after the stage win yesterday Vino was talking in the ear at length with someone. I had a strange feeling that he was telling them that problems were on the horizon or that he had decided to quit. I had a flashback to Landis and thought to myself... this will either prove that Landis was clean or that Vino will be found to have doped.
Pardon my expression here, but WTF is wrong with these guys???? Do they not realize how doping is ruining the grandeur of professional cycling? Do they not realize that they have soured the flavor of this year's Tour??
Pleeeeaase let this be untrue.
I just cannot understand or fathom how someone could be so freaking stupid. Thanks Vino. Thanks alot. Courage my azz! :mad: :rolleyes:
(AAArrrrg!!!)
Thanks for the opportunity to vent, gals.
~BikeMomma
I am also really mad about this. What are they thinking?? And then there's the guy who says Rasmussen tried to get him to bring veterinary blood replacement to Europe in a shoebox several years ago. It's all as bad as Rumsas' wife and Vandenbrooke's dog.
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
I'm sooooooo unhappy about this development. Why oh why do these boys try stunts like this?? I have been following Vino since his crash and I was so happy for him in the last stage. And now.......:eek:
I hope our Discovery boys are clean. :(
this makes me mad too. these guys are and have been my heroes... the people I think of and look up to when I'm out there suffering on MY bike... how freakin dare they? :mad:
it's so danged disappointing. :(
The fact that Astana's pulled out of the Tour seems like an admission of guilt, but I'd still like to see a statement from Vino. After the TT, I also wondered how long it would be before there was some accusation against him, but Astana's response to this implies a lot.
At this point, I'm too stunned to feel anything but sadness. Sad that someone like Vino would feel it necessary to do something of this sort, sad that two of my heroes (Floyd and Vino) have this ugly issue hanging over them, sad that this issue exists at all. Even though, I still feel a naive, yet subdued, excitement to see who pulls through all this chaos to stand on the podium this coming Sunday. Dunno whether to believe the winner will be clean, though... :(
Exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by bikerchick68
I feel like crying now.
Wow- yes I just read on cnn that the Astana Team left the TdF today. How do these guys think they have the right to muddy their (and our ) sport like this?
Don't think about Vino - think about the guys like Alberto Contador and how awesome he is....and hopefully clean and honest!
I'm so upset too. After watching his remarkable ride yesterday, I had the same flashbacks to Floyd's performance last year - amazing ride after a miserable day. I'll be skeptical of anyone at this point.
Did you guys catch the announcer saying that the head of Astana was going to give them a 10 year contract? I wonder if that contract has been voided now?
I had a great ride this morning and as I started to wane, I kept Vino's struggle in my thoughts to serve as an encouragement. Now I feel so let down. :(
So did Landis actually test positive, and were his levels just below the threshold for an illegal substance? :confused:
You want to believe, but, then this....sigh....But, I will wait to see what he says. As a conspiracy theorist, how hard would it be to contaminate the blood sample? Or, perhaps, he really did it.
Still I continue to back cycling. It is a sport unlike any others in terms of truly being a "team" sport. The sport doesn't breed the superstar like other sports. Sure, Armstrong was the undisputed captain for Discovery, but, when it wasn't his race, he played domestique (images of him carrying water bottles for Danielson at the Tour de Georgia). You so rarely see that (and never in the US's most popular sports).
Doping aside, cycling is unique. I remain a fan...
There has been doping in professional cycling since the early days, with riders taking amphetamines and champagne (the light bubbles makes for fearless descending), among other things. It is profoundly part of the culture. EPO is relatively accessible to Cat 1-2 racers on the regional scene, who really thinks it wouldn't be for pros?
Doping is the only way to remain in the peloton, meter of elevation after meter of elevation, kilometer of suffering after kilometer of suffering, day after day, week after week. This is a BRUTAL sport (compared to, say, triathlon, where pros do not race more than every week or every other week). This doesn't mean that these guys are not exceptional athletes. But when a drug like EPO can improve one's capabilities by 10-20%, well that's over 6 minutes per hour.
I'm not mad at the racers as I feel really sorry for them. They have to close their eyes to whatever is going on, they ingest all sorts of things with or without knowing (or rather without wanting to know), they put their health at tremendous risks. The team directors and soigneurs are very well aware of what is going on. But it's these guys' dream to be in races like the Tour de France. Not doping, or speaking up about it, will mean the end of their dream (and lawsuits, and losing whatever respect they had received from racing, and conflicts with their friends and families, etc.). Sure, they have a choice: doping or quitting pro cycling. And they have to keep lying all the time, to others but also to themselves, to their closest friends and family. That must be awful.
Now that controls are stricter, things get messier, I'm afraid, new stuff is tried out (blood transfusions), drugs are taken as a cocktail (sub-detectable doses of individual drugs which together make a powerful mix, with possibly lethal effects), sometimes the guesses are wrong, or the dosage is not quite right, and they get caught. Other times, as has been seen in a number of occasions over the history of cycling, they die.
There might be an oddball here or there that's not taking anything at all, and that has never ever touched anything (knowingly at least), but that would be really rare I'm afraid.
I am not sure it was meant like that, but I increasingly see the Triplettes de Belleville as a metaphor on the doping. They race the cyclists until they die, who cares about their physical and mental health?
I had a great ride this morning and as I started to wane, I kept Vino's struggle in my thoughts to serve as an encouragement. Now I feel so let down. :([/QUOTE]
I feel the same way about Vino. I kept thinking, what an inspiration he is. If he can get back on the bike after his crash, then I can keep going. And now this . . .
Landis tested as having abnormal testosterone to epitestoterone ratiosQuote:
Originally Posted by sundial
Now any use of outside testosterone would be banned, but the tests for this are tricky and it is a naturally occuring substance in the body. Though I haven't read all of the defense I believe that there are some arguments for suspect testing procedures in there. The mass spectrometer (sp?) test that proved the T was not natural sounds like a fairly hard one to counter though.
I think you may be remembering a Lance Armstrong test - it was for a very low level of a steroid, under the threshold for a positive doping test (as this is also a substance that naturally occurs in the body) and was also explained by possible contamination by a legal topical saddle sore cream.
The test for homologous blood doping is also tricky and actually quite subjective, so lets wait for the testing of the B sample (and Vinokurov himself has requested B sample testing) before we make any condemnations.
gosh, if these guys want to cheat, why dont they just put motors on their bikes!!
IF he's really been doing this...
sigh.
I still believe Landis was framed.
i'd like to see a race where we can see how the BEST MAN sans drugs, extra blood,
extra stimulants... can win.. who CARES if it's not as fast as last year??!
I'm just really cynical about doping, drugs and such.
I've said it before, it's just too easy and they think they can get away with it. Very sad indeed but I'm not all the suprised.
The money and fame is just too great for some. So if you only took 1/2 or even 1/3 of what guys used to take, they think they can get an edge. For some that is all the difference they need to place on the podium. 4hour ride and at the finish its down to less than 5 seconds. 5 divided by 4x60x60. Its a very small percentage.
The another dark side of this doping/drug issue is some "spectators" want their team to win so they'll try to give other riders a spiked bottle in hopes that the other rider will test positive. And its no just drink but food, snack you name it. The riders for the most part know not to take any freebies from spectators and are INSTRUCTED NOT TO DRINK FREEBIE LIQUID from their coaches, mgrs. Maybe some have tried to use this as an excuse for testing positive. :rolleyes:
smilingcat
EPO is also readily available at cat3 and all the way down to cat5. A lot of guys just don't care and think they are invincible. Until they die in there sleep that is. One of the side effects of EPO: blood is too thick and doesn't flow freely through your system is what I was told.
Other stuff is readily available too. I know Eden hasn't ran across and just can't imagine why anyone would spend $$ for the drugs just to win some measly primes. The guys who take it their head isn't screwed on right.
smilingcat
David Millar's response to this is also very interesting. My first reaction was to think that yes, he served his suspension like a good boy, but he should still have a little more humility. But then I thought about the fact that this news was disclosed during a Saunier-Duval press conference in which that team was announcing something good that they were doing for the world and that their news was totally overshadowed. It's fairly understandable that he'd react so emotionally.
Once again, this confirms for me that Slipstream is a team to watch. If they're as vigilant as they advertise they are, they may very well be the only "clean" team in cycling. Millar was also going to announce that he's joining Slipstream in 2008, and there's a rumor that Dave Z will also be signing with them. That would definitely put them on the map and create some seriously high expectations for them.
Never mind whether or not he or anyone else is or was doing it --
Last year was my first Tour.
The moment a guy had a Hors-crappegory day, followed by a stupendous day, he was busted.
This year, same thing, right around the same part of the race.
As a newcomer, it's not surprising to me that the drug-czars for this sport would choose to declare "Vino's Doping" the moment he has a big turn around.
Who will do a couple of rides like this and get accused next year?
Karen in Boise
What a total downer. I'm very sad for the sport of cycling, but I can't say I'm all that surprised. I hope in a few years cycling will be totally clean, but I doubt it.
My husband used to race Cat 1 on the track and went to the Olympic trials in 1996. He could never understand why there were some guys that just had it so much over everyone else. He was too naive to realize they were likely doping at the time... now he remembers all the puffy faces and other weird stuff that he never put together before. It's sad.
As David Millar said . . .
"I just feel like crying right now."
What was he thinking? :confused:
I just don't understand!
I'm wondering if many of the pros are motivated by the Slipstream offers so that they have the possibility of being remembered as clean riders and not having their results questioned. Yes, you still stand the risk of competing against doped cyclists and losing, but the credibility and respect you'd gain.
Think about it. Barry Bonds is always going to have a question mark after his name.
Honestly I can't say I'm surprised. Not a Vino fan here. I thought he was evil . . . Ok, maybe evil is a strong word, villain-esque? Rassmusen on the other hand, I like him. I hope his tests continue to come back clean.
I still think there are serious flaws in the testing procedures. More samples need to be sent to independent labs (outside of France). One lab doing all the testing, when it's been shown there are problems with their protocols . . . how are we supposed to believe their results? That's why I'm still on the fence about Floyd. Honestly not a huge Floyd fan either, but I have a hunch he was set up by the lab.
I should add that I think Floyd was framed simply because he's an American.
I think I may be missing something, but why does the Tour invite the team an opportunity to withdraw, rather than some conditional stay (everybody in the team gets tested)? I feel sorry for Andreas Kloeden, who was in 5th place and could have within contention.
Shouldn't this post have come with a "spoiler alert"?
Yeah, the fact that they continue to use that lab bothers me, as well. I don't see any reason to frame Vino, as he's not a GC threat, but that lab's integrity has been called into question repeatedly so it just throws suspicion over any of their findings.Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyAnika
It's been reported at CNN and in cyling news. Why would anyone want to maintain suspense at finding this out?Quote:
Originally Posted by zencentury
We have very good friends who live in Paris and they say it's hard for Americans to understand how much the French hate the fact that Americans have been dominating the sport. It's a little scary, according to them.
who?
where?
what?
why?
when?
you're probably familar with these questions
who? where? what? we know that
why? (if he did it) One explanation is that the program was team-wide, and a mixup was made, and Vino got somebody else's blood, which means somebody on Astana has Vino's blood.
The ASO(The company that runs Le Tour) and the UCI offers Astana a deal. the team leaves en masse or we test all your riders.
I personally don't look for pro to be motivaed, as Smiling Cat mentioned ( and some of my RealLife buddies have confirmed) , doping is everywhere. Besides, I have a buddy on bikejournal that finished RAAM with 80 some-odd stiches
I'm with Kalidurga - this is hardly a "spoiler".
A debacle, yes.
The sponsors should be made to pay for cross-the-board tests, every day, on every player, in every sport. Heck some former golf pro suggested they should start testing the PGA tour, we'd see what comes out...
The riders are desperate, they need wins to support their life after 35. They've gambled everything on this sport.
You know what I do care about - we would not have access to Campy, carbon, or speedplay if it was not for drug-infested pro cycling. Now THAT would $uck.
Thanks Fredwina! That clarifies it for me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredwina
Wait! - the contract that the teams signed before the tour started - did that have a clause about pulling the team if a single rider tested positive? I will do some research. It would not suprise me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zencentury
I think ZC was really more lamenting the fact that she'd rather not have found out about this. As all the rest of us probably feel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalidurga
Could be that too. Spent too many years writing criminal records tracking system.:o Al othugh , most news source are reporting that they were "asked" to leave...Quote:
Originally Posted by Eden
It is sad to see. I was a bit disappointed in Vino, but not shocked.
I also don't believe it could be a simple mix up with same type blood. There are all kinds of anitbodies in blood that have to be checked for compatability, not just the blood type and Rh pos/neg. It would be astounding to me that they accidently mixed up the blood and it just so happened that both riders affected had no antibodies or reaction to the blood.
I would like to see a doping free tour but like others have said the money and fame make such a tempting offer. Not to mention, the fans who have a huge desire to see their hero be super human.
I am still a cycling fan and will continue to watch. If nothing else, Rasmussen and Contador have added a thrill.