Dangers of Vegetarianism?

Hey everyone--
Lately its' been hard for me to comprehend eating meat. I get sick just thinking about it, and the more I read about colon/breast cancer linkage to meat, the more I think that perhaps it's not the worst idea to give it up. Plus, I can't eat meat knowing how all those poor animals are treated. I know that there is free-range, anti-growth hormones, etc., but that to me gets very expensive and hard to ensure in restaurants (and then what about cancer?).

So, my question to all the vegetarians (vegans too): Are there significant dangers I should be worried about? It seems to me that you should be able to get your vitamins and protein from plant and grain sources. What do you do about B12 or others you get only from meat? I really want to continue this (it's been about a week), but I definitely want to be smart and not get myself sick. Any great books to recommend? I'm reading "Vegan: New Ethics of Eating" at the moment.

Thanks, ladies!!!! :D

My SO and I switched to a primarily plant based diet about four months ago, two of our friends also decided to try it and the results have been excellent. I don't go in for my annual physical/bloodwork until June but one of our friends (55 years old and taking high blood pressure meds and cholesterol meds) had hers two weeks ago and she's off both meds now. She feels great and I'm hoping for similar bloodwork results next month (although I'm 46 and not on meds just yet).

We all read a book called The China Study that outlined some excellent reasons for making the switch to a plant based diet. Good luck with your transition if you choose to go that way.

Vegetarian (ovo-lacto, but descreasing usage) for more than 10 years; active cyclist for 3. No problems. There is a vegan US cycling team.

B12 is an interesting vitamin. I did some research on it after I developed Bell's Palsy (in that case, I temporarily took a supplement). B12 is useful for nerve regeneration. Normally, it is used in very small amounds. The body "recycles" its supply such that a healthy individual with absolutely no external source of B12 will not see a deficiency for years. That said, studies have shown that even strict vegans will get sufficient B12 from their diet. Yes, it is only from animals sources, but studies have shown that grain sources have enough ground up insects that, no matter how strict you are, you will get some animal protien.

The only thing we've changed recently is to add additional protein sources. Many here have said that protein supplements are hooey, but we found that as we increased our activity that we were craving proteins <argh> the chicken barbeques were smelling good </argh>. So, we made a conscious effort to do things like add TVP to pasta sauces, eat a protein bar after hard rides, add flavored tofu occasionally to our wrap meals, etc.

But, really, no harm in it.

I've been a vegan for 16 years. I take a multivitamin which includes B12, and calcium, but other than that I just eat a healthy, varied diet. I get sick less often and feel better than any of my carnivore friends who are my age (50). And my hair hasn't turned grey yet--one of the side benefits, I think.

As for books, my favorite is "Diet for a New America" by John Robbins. It's fairly old now, but he makes a good case for giving up each type of meat, eggs, etc, and makes you really believe in what you're doing. I like PETA's cookbook "The Compassionate Cook" for recipes.

Congratulations on going vegetarian!

I take daily B12 for other reasons. I buy "Source Naturals" methylcobalamine, which is vegetarian and hypoallergenic. No "yeast, dairy, egg, gluten, corn, soy or wheat." And they taste ok.

If you can find the book "How it all Vegan", check it out. Fun book. I've not read the second vegan book these women wrote, but I'm betting it's a fun one, too.

Not espousing one diet over another, but....

I have a friend who was an ovo/lacto/pesco vegetarian. Carefully ate organics, "free range" and the like. She still got breast cancer.
You can be as careful about your diet as you like, but sometimes there's no escaping genetics.

Vegetarian doesn't necessarily equal "healthful." French fries and Fritos are vegetarian -- doesn't make them healthful.

Humans throughout history have been omnivores. If you can make the effort, and eat a varied, healthful diet that eliminates animal products, more power to you.

French fries aren't healthful!?!?! :eek:

(mmmm, french fries and mayo...)

I have been a vegetarian since I was a child - just refused to eat meat because I didn't like the texture.

I can honestly say it is so much easier to be a vegetarian now than it was even 5 years ago. There are great meat substitutes that can be found in regular grocery stores or a local health food store. And restaurants willingly change meat based dishes to a vegetarian option at requests, when they never would in the past (my fave is Olive Garden's Chicken Giradino (sp?) - no chicken, double veggies - yummy!)

I would just recommend really reading labels and determining the nutritional value of the food. As a vegetarian its essential to look for protein and iron - especially if you are not using tofu, soy and other meat substitues or if you are going vegan. For example - the Barilla Pasta + with protein and iron is more expensive than their regular pasta but its worth it for the nutrients. Take multi-vitamins but most of your vitamins and nutrients still need to come from solid food.

Good luck and enjoy! :D

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Originally Posted by KnottedYet

French fries aren't healthful!?!?! :eek:

(mmmm, french fries and mayo...)

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Umm..lets see - French Fries are made from potatoes and potatoes are a vegetable...so they must count towards my veggies for the day - thereby being a healthy food!

If I dip them in ketchup, can I count that as a fruit? :rolleyes:
Sigh - fries are a weakness. Of course I don't dip in ketchup. I love chocolate shakes. Yumm..sweet and salty.

Doh - now I am craving fries and a shake :eek:

I am an omnivore. I always will be. However, I know that humans can do well on a vegetarian diet, but it is even more critical to pay attention to nutrition because the western diet of convenience foods sort of precludes good nutrition.

So, it's harder, takes more thought and planning. I know you guys are joking about french fries, but i have known some vegetarians who took a bad diet with meat and cut the meat out. and french fries apparently are a large part of that kind of diet, coupled with soft drinks.

As I stated in the beginning, I am an omnivore. I believe that humans evolved to where they are by their incredible flexibility. If you don't count cockroaches, there isn't a single other animal on the planet that eats (and thrives on) a more diverse diet.
So who am I to eschew tasty nutritious animal proteins? gnamgnam gnam.
I can't give it up, but more power to those of you who want to!

Interesting article on this topic:

http://www.westonaprice.org/mythstru...tarianism.html

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Originally Posted by michelem

Interesting article on this topic:

http://www.westonaprice.org/mythstru...tarianism.html

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Very odd, point by point The China Study counters every single argument made in that article. Makes it hard for us lay people to know who's right.

Thanks so much for the input!! For the record, genetics can certainly take over no matter what, unfortunately. For instance, someone wrote they have less grey hair, but I'm 27 and apparently take after my grandfather, who also went grey pretty fast. I just hope that the breast cancer my uncle has and my mom had won't come finding me...oh and the colon cancer of said grandfather.

I'm suspicious of multi-vitamins...are there any that dissolve in a drink, like water, as opposed to swallowing the pill? I've heard studies that proved they didn't dissolve, hence the term, "All you have now is expensive urine."

What about protein shakes with vitamins? I'm trying to cut back on milk products (never digested well anyway)...I bought some vanilla soy milk but have yet to try it. I'll let you all know :)

I also want to warn veggies about over-consumption of the wrong foods. I hate it when a vegan or a vegetarian would point out the dangers of my burger while they scarfed down fries and were about 40 lb.s overweight. I suppose nowadays is IS easier, with pastas having multigrain and using whole wheat and stuff.

So these books you all recommend...they have break-downs of what foods to include in your diet in order to receive the right nutrients? I'm so excited to read!!

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Originally Posted by lizbids

I hate it when a vegan or a vegetarian would point out the dangers of my burger while they scarfed down fries and were about 40 lb.s overweight.

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Well, here's where genetics enters into it also. I'm 40 pounds overweight, even though I'm a vegan who eats french fries very rarely. I'm proof that it's possible to be fat even if you eat right and exercise, so go figure.

For me, veganism is an ethical choice. I'm sure that one can eat a healthy diet that includes animal products, but I choose not to for the sake of the animals.

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Originally Posted by lizbids

Thanks so much for the input!! For the record, genetics can certainly take over no matter what, unfortunately. For instance, someone wrote they have less grey hair, but I'm 27 and apparently take after my grandfather, who also went grey pretty fast. I just hope that the breast cancer my uncle has and my mom had won't come finding me...oh and the colon cancer of said grandfather.

I'm suspicious of multi-vitamins...are there any that dissolve in a drink, like water, as opposed to swallowing the pill? I've heard studies that proved they didn't dissolve, hence the term, "All you have now is expensive urine."

What about protein shakes with vitamins? I'm trying to cut back on milk products (never digested well anyway)...I bought some vanilla soy milk but have yet to try it. I'll let you all know :)

I also want to warn veggies about over-consumption of the wrong foods. I hate it when a vegan or a vegetarian would point out the dangers of my burger while they scarfed down fries and were about 40 lb.s overweight. I suppose nowadays is IS easier, with pastas having multigrain and using whole wheat and stuff.

So these books you all recommend...they have break-downs of what foods to include in your diet in order to receive the right nutrients? I'm so excited to read!!

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yes, You're right about the grey hair. People don't go grey because they eat meat. There are millions of people who never eat meat and their hair is grey.
However, if your urine is colored from your vitamins, that means they DID dissolve. what it also means is that your body didn't absorb what you see obviously...

I was a vegetarian for several years and went back to eating chicken about a year ago. I was having soft tissue problems - I had tendinitis in 4 different parts of my body within a 3 year period all from "overuse" even though I really was not over-training. My chiropractor suggested I try eating some meat to see if it made a difference. I don't like red meat and I am allergic to fish, so I just eat chicken maybe 2-3 times a week at most and do whey protein shakes as well. I have not had any problems since I started eating meat. I have also noticed that my performance on the bike has improved, which I didn't expect.

So...while I think vegetarianism is the ideal (I don't really enjoy eating meat), I don't think it was working for me. A lot of veg products you can buy at the store are processed and that's something to think about too. Too much processed food is not good either. So...if you can prepare healthy meals and your body responds well, I say go for it. I think it's different for everyone. It certainly can't hurt to try. I tried for 6 years and ultimately I think there was something I wasn't getting that I needed.

It's hard though. I do think about the animals and some days it's hard for me to eat the chicken. I have to eat pre-cooked (can't see it in its raw form) chicken. But, I am feeling better and it has kept me out of physical therapy!

I have been a vegetarian for more than ten years. No meat, chicken, or fish. I do eat eggs and dairy, but as I have become a better eater, have reduced that too.

Concentrate on whole grains, fruits, and veggies. The key is variety. I don't look at the nutritional value of each meal, but of the day as a whole. If I am eating lunch out with co-workers I may wind up with a cheese sandwich - just make up the difference at dinner. I also took to grazing (on HEALTHY foods) rather than eating big meals.

There's a great book - Vegetarian Sports Nutrition by D. Enette Larson-Meyer, who is a cyclist. She covers foods as well as meeting the hydration needs. Great resource.

Divingbiker--
Didnt' mean to sound rude about the 40lb-comment remark (I had a friend in college who a vegan but actually smoked, drank, wore leather and ate a lot of junk). I just hate hypocrites, and he was just so smug about his non-meat-eating.

and as for genetics, yeah totally hear you on that. In my family, people are just generally heavy no matter what...though a few of them have tremendous appetites. Then you meet ultra-thin people who are big eaters--go figure!

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Originally Posted by lizbids

Divingbiker--
Didnt' mean to sound rude about the 40lb-comment remark (I had a friend in college who a vegan but actually smoked, drank, wore leather and ate a lot of junk). I just hate hypocrites, and he was just so smug about his non-meat-eating.

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No offense taken. I know there are a lot of holier-than-thou vegans out there. My approach is to bring in cakes, cookies, and delicious dishes to potlucks, and show people that vegan food can be tasty. What they do with that info is their business.

Good to hear from all the other vegetarians and vegans out there. I've been vegan for 5 years, vegetarian for 5 before that, and generally really like how it makes me feel.

I've read some pro-vegan books that basically tell you not to worry about protein consumption, calcium intake, and B12 intake. I tried that strategy for quite a few years, and then - to make a long story short - I realized that I do have to pay attention to those things. Maybe it wasn't such a big deal when I wasn't riding and placing those extra demands on my body, but now that I am I need to make sure I'm eating my 50+ grams of protein every day, getting calcium from food & supplements, and taking my B12 supplement.

I've also learned that it's convenient for those wanting to lose weight to use veganism as way to avoid calorie-dense food. Which is totally valid, as long as you're being rational rather than obsessive about it. Veganism can be a really meaningful expression of ethical relationship among living beings, when it's done mindfully and humbly. When it's done in a knee-jerk way, it can be just another "food rule" that doesn't bring clarity at all.

Did that make any sense?

I have been a vego (lacto- ovo) for 28 years. I started because I wanted to be less aggressive. It has worked.
(Whatever you-all might be thinking from some of my posts this is a much more tranquil and calm version of margo49 )

I think the main things you have to look out for are iron and B12. As a woman you have to look out for iron anyway. The B12 - I take a sub-lingual supplement every so often. I had a bad time with it when I had my Terrible Tractor Accident (the symptom to look out for is that the bottom (palms as it were) of your feet hurt). Probly coz the System was under so much strain anyway.

I have also had breast cancer.
My answer to (pathetic) critics who say "Look at all those healthy things you ate and did; Where did it get you?" is this:
If I hadn't had that healthy background I would have been in much worse shape (physically and mentally); and for longer.

Eat a wide variety of foods and make sure your plate is colourful

Btw, if it makes you unhappy it is not the diet for you. People are different - an oft-forgotten obvious fact.

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Originally Posted by margo49

I think the main things you have to look out for are iron and B12. As a woman you have to look out for iron anyway.
I have also had breast cancer.
My answer to (pathetic) critics who say "Look at all those healthy things you ate and did; Where did it get you?" is this:
If I hadn't had that healthy background I would have been in much worse shape (physically and mentally); and for longer. Eat a wide variety of foods and make sure your plate is colourful Btw, if it makes you unhappy it is not the diet for you. People are different - an oft-forgotten obvious fact.

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Thanks, I think I feel the same way: I'm not doing this because some Hollywood jerk convinced me...this really is something I have been considering for a long time but thought I could never give up meat. I do love the taste, but as stated before, I can't bring myself to eat it anymore.

Oh and any book that claims you don't need to pay attention to iron and B12 and stuff...I am surprised at that. As women we need to really keep our nutrients in mind. Actually, men do too. We all do! I'm still trying to figure out which foods have high volumes of this and that.
As for B12, I noticed that my soymilk contains 50% per 8oz serving. Is there anyone out there who don't use pill-supplements? I'm sure some protein shakes out there will help, too?

And, I'll also be honest: Any day I bike for 2 hours, I need those carbs more than anything. After I get off the bike is when I try to get protein and vegetables and stuff. Works for me pretty well so far.

Hi

I've been what my friends call "a fish and chip-o-crit" for over 10 years. I switched because I work in agriculture and I couldn't bring myself to eat sheep (we did trials on them - mulesing if you have heard of it), seen chooks stuck in small, small cages, little calves (they seemed to have an OK life) and piglets. After that, I couldn't eat them. Moral decision on my part. What I can't kill, I won't eat. Though, probably would have a hard time killing a fish! But not everyone is the same...

I've always exercised and have been cycling for the last 5. No health problems (so far). I often forget to take multivitamins including iron tablets. Just make sure you vary your diet and have regular check-ups (which you should anyway).

I'd say the biggest concern is B12, since that only comes from animal products (which can be milk or eggs, doesn't have to be meat). Iron may be an issue too but it can be obtained from plant foods if you know which ones have more and eat them with something that has lots of vitamin C. My take on it is that the natural human diet is omnivorous but should contain a lot more plant than animal products; most of us here in America eat too much meat and that's not healthy especially given modern farming practices. I seldom eat red meat anymore, mostly poultry and fish, and those not even every day. Ditto to those who said to stay away from excessive amounts of processed foods--those are unhealthy whether vegetarian or not!

When I was a student of anatomy our textbook had photos of cadavers to show various muscles. That pretty much put me off meat. I find that the vanilla soy milk has too high a sugar content. You may want to do a search with the terms complete and incomplete proteins and complimentary proteins.
and check out http://www.mypyramid.gov/mypyramid/index.aspx

Cookbooks for reference:

Any of Moosewood cookbooks. Great recipe.
Laurel's Kitchen Have nutrional information and how to mix grains, beans corn and other vegetable protein to make it worthwhile. After six or so month of veggie diet, your nose will become sensitive to the smell of meat in a grocery store. And you'll be able to pinpoint where the meat section is just from the smell.

I like veggie burger from Trader Joe. You can't tell its veggie burger... yum...

smilingcat

Another omnivore here. I don't have the time or inclination to become vego BUT think those that do it well should have a very healthy body and be giving themselves a great chance against many diseases.

Just wanted to add that if you are exercising a lot make sure you are getting enough protein as plant sources are not as efficiently processed as animal sources (which could include milk, eggs and cheese if you choose to eat them).

Also be careful falling back on multivitamins to replace the things not in your diet. This link shows an interview discussing recent findings about some antioxidant supplements (inc beta-carotene, Vit A and Vit E) and links to increased risk of mortality. http://www.abc.net.au/rn/healthreport/stories/2007/1861068.htm
. This guy is talking about Danish research but it supports recent American findings. I've not read this particular interview transcript but read a summary of the American findings just the other day. It seems that until now little research had been done into potential negative effects of taking supplements and really its just been assumed (with the help of multivit producers no doubt) that they are beneficial. My personal view - there is no substitute for real food - if you can't get all the vits and minerals you need from real food (with certain exceptions) then perhaps your diet needs to be rethought vegetarian or otherwise.

Ok, so basically B12 is really only something you can obtain from animals, and all of us have B12 in our systems to begin with, correct? So are supplements like Centrum the only way to go to ensure you get the vitamin? Other foods have B12 added (cereals, soy milk, etc)?

Several people here replied with sub-lingual B-12. I'm fuzzy here, but, when I did the research eons back, it seemed to me that the B-12 in swallow-whole tablet form is not absorbed easily and is almost certainly just peed back out.

The sub-lingual losenge form, on the other hand, is like a trickle-charge. It goes in slowly and your body will absorb more of it.

Of course, the diet side effect of the losenge form is that you won't be eating while taking your B-12 and the cherry flavor (the kind I used) hangs around for a while afterwards, so munchies are out of the question.

I'm intrigued...can someone tell me more about the B12 lozenge?

Off topic, here, but I have to give you other herbivores a good recipe if you're craving a cheeseburger...

Slice a block of extra firm tofu in to 1/2 inch patties and put them between some paper towels. Put a cookie sheet on top of them and weigh it down with something heavy (I use a couple of bottles of wine). After 30 minutes, put them in a zipper bag with some worchestershire sauce and let them marinate for as long as you can stand it (at least 30 minutes, but longer is better). Throw them in a lightly oiled, hot pan, and cook them for a few minutes on each side. Season with Hamburger seasoning and pepper, then throw a slice of cheese or cheese subsititute of your choice on top. Toast a whole wheat bun while they cook. Put your favorite condiments & burger toppings on, then put the cooked tofu in and VIOLA! Tofu burger!

I'm a vegan (who eats a balanced diet), and I feel healthy and happy. I just take a multivitamin and add Red Star Nutritional Yeast to various foods. It's tasty and chock full of B vitamins. I think the key is to eat a really varied diet with lots of fresh vegetables and whole grains. Vegans who eat nothing but pasta and junk food are very common. With some education and good recipes, you don't have to fall into that trap. Here is a great website:

http://www.organicathlete.org/

It is with a reserved sigh I opened this thread, and with pleasure I have read it.

I have little time for most of the vegans/vegetarians I know/have known - they are "holier-than-thou", sanctimonious and dangerous in their preachings... telling any and all that vegetarianism is healthier 'just because', that they are vegetarians but they eat fish or chicken (excuse me? last I heard, fish and chicken were animals!), and that humans have evolved and we no longer should be carnivores/omnivores...

I used to go into biology/physiology... but now I just say, notice where our eyes are... we are hunters - just like wolves, raptors, cats... not grazing hebivores like cattle or deer.

But this thread is another example of the well-considered and thoughtful decision-making by the intelligent women on this board.

You make this choice after research on health and considering what your "new" diet will look like.
You make this choice on moral grounds as to how animals are raised or on personal response to killing another creature.
This type of vegetarian I understand and respect.

I am afraid I am a hunter (literally) and I enjoy meat too much to give it up. I make moral choices - I don't eat pork or chicken as these creatures are both battery farmed in New Zealand and I do not wish to support this life-long imprisonment and cruelty.

Within this thread there is good advice here on healthy ways to live with vegetarian nutrition choices.

Well done ladies, once again, I applaud the community here.

Interesting topic!

Well my own experience is this:

I became a lacto-veg in 1996, and stayed veg for about 9 years. I did notice that i tended to bonk a lot of group mtb rides, and i just didnt feel i had the stamina the rest of my friends did. I was very careful with my eating. About a couple of years ago i was diagnosed with very low iron (not anemic, but definitely in the very lowest of what is considered "ok"), so i started taking iron supplements, and eating a little fish. I started to feel better. then i added poultry. i decided for four legged creatures it would have to be organic. i tried bison, which is digested ok, but when i tried beef i got really sick. The butcher actually had this theory that when someone has cut out farmed red meat, they can't eat it for a very long time after wards, and they would have to eat wild game (i guess this bison is as wild as it gets).

I lost weight, and i felt better, and after reading about metabolic typing, it would *appear* that maybe my body is better suited to higher protein in my diet, which vegetarian diets just doesn't seem to work for my body.

I don't like to rely on "fake meats" for everything, and i just found with beans and tofu i was just ALWAYS hungry, i couldn't stop eating.

anyway, this is my experience, and everyone's is different. I eat lots of fruit and vegetables, various grains and make my meats organic, or at least antibiotic free.

If you plan on becoming vegetarian, do your research, talk to a dietician and make sure you are getting all your nutrients, its very easy to be low on certain things when you start cutting out foods.

Good luck!
Hannah

If I could offer a suggestion for those who have a problem with eating battery farmed animals .....

Accept a lower percentage of meat in your diet and pay the premium required to eat free range organic meat. My husband and I do this and as a result, we eat chicken about once a month, beef and lamb maybe once every two months and pork three to four times a year. We have fish once a week and the rest of the time our diet is based around vegetables, grains and pulses.

Tonight, for example, we are having a leek and goat's cheese tart accompanied by a green leaf salad.

I'm with you Matagi, if you enjoy meat then make it the best possible if you can. I have found on my few visits to the US that it is indeed a meat heavy diet (at least when eating out), I actually struggle to eat lots of meat and was forever trying to find the "smallest piece of meat on the menu" and after a while I was craving a big salad with lots of fresh veg.

I try to get free range or organic meat wherever possible. I pretty much never ever buy chicken unless its organic, even free range isn't good enough if its from the supermarket. I also avoid supermarket pork because it is "battery" processed and tastes rubbish unless its organic. Beef and lamb I think are harder to intensively rear however the problem is then that the supermarkets don't hang the meat properly.

Luckily a recent addition to our riding group is really passionate about the source of his food and has put me on to the possibility of sourcing most of our meat from local, organic suppliers either through a farmers market or direct from the supplier or our local butcher (who does fabulous bacon and sausages). It will mean a shift in my way of looking at meat as often it will be a whole or half of an animal that is being bought and I am looking forward to learning how to joint a chicken rather than picking up two breasts in a packet at the supermarket which bears no relation to the animal it came from. We are looking at buying a whole sheep between a few friends and thinking of ways to use the whole animal (home made haggis anyone ?). We also have a farm shop which is a bit further away than my local supermarket but which has a supply of lots of local veg and soft fruit, including dirty carrots and potatoes :D . Its taking a bit more effort to get out of the routine of blindly picking things up in the supermarket but the taste of the produce is much better and usually cheaper, it only costs more in convenience and organisation.


Sorry....I'm surprising even myself with my willingness to go local, its still going to take a while before it becomes second nature.

I'm not a vegetarian, I just eat like one (most of the time, anyway). I do enjoy beef, lamb, and pork every so often, but too much meat aggravates my digestive system. I can't eat it every day. I try to eat fish, but good fish is hard to find here, and very expensive.

I just wanted to add that if anyone is wondering "How do I find locally raised organic meats?", try checking out your local farmer's market. Along with dirty carrots and potatoes, you can often find free range organic meats from local ranchers you can feel good about eating.

A warm Hello!

For anyone interested, ther is a book out entitled: The Female Vegetarian.

A part of the book does address the vegetarian lifestyle for the female athlete. It's a good book, in my opinion, for women concerned about meeting their daily requirements. (I'd tell you more about it, but the last time I had lent it out... was the last time I've seen it! A couple of years ago. I've forgotten exactly what is in it and the name of the author!)

Best wishes!:)

Has anyone read "Animal, Vegetable, Miracle" by Barbara Kingsolver yet?

(it's only been out for about 2 weeks)