You could still go do the swim portion of the training tri. Enjoy the hiking!
Veronica
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You could still go do the swim portion of the training tri. Enjoy the hiking!
Veronica
I just got the VFF Performa Janes. I'm thinking to use them just as an indoor shoe, but I'm also going to try them for Pilates. I like to do Pilates barefoot, but some studios require socks, which can slip, so I'm thinking these might also be a good sock substitute.
Question about fit, for those of you who have experience with other models of VFF: how snug should these be? I usually wear a 6~1/2 and I ordered these in 37. I can slip my pinky finger in behind the heel of these when I have them on, but the toes seem about the right length. I don't think I'm flopping around in these, but I'm tempted to go down a size. Any thoughts?
Other than wondering about whether I've selected the right size, I really like these shoes. The material is excellent quality -- soft and pliable -- and well-crafted. I'll write more when I've spent more time in them!
NbyNW - I think you might want to go down a size only because those are leather and they'll probably stretch out a bit. Even my sprints have stretched slightly.
Though, too small VFF's would be miserable, so it's really hard to say!
I really want a pair of KSO Trek's to wear hiking. I've decided that I really, really don't like hiking boots!
Hey, KnottedYet?
So would you say it's a posture issue or a structural issue for someone who is knock-kneed and slightly pigeon-toed while running, but still overpronates enough that I keep being assigned stability plus shoes with custom orthotics? I can look in the mirror and see that my ankles collapse inwards while standing still - though my normal stance is feet straight ahead or slightly turned in. One is worse than the other, but I think one leg might be longer b/c my hips are uneven and I have some scoliosis.
I switched to a much lighter shoe,pared down the orthotics, and switched to a mid-foot strike a few months ago, and it eliminated all ITBS issues that crippled me during my last marathon. But I'm thinking of starting with VFFs when I'm allowed to run again since I'll be completely starting over. I'll also be doing crazy amounts of core work to make up for wearing the brace. Do you think I'm asking for trouble?
Jessmarimba, I'd really have to see you to be able to give you a good answer.
My bet is that it's postural; weak or lazy core, especially hip stabilizers and hip external rotators. Kinda sounds like they are just strong enough to get by when standing or walking, but under the greater stability challenge of running they go AWOL. Meanwhile your feet amight trying to compensate by going pigeon-toed, trying to get the ankle where it belongs as you run.
Ask whoever you're working with to help you correct your standing leg posture in front of a mirror. Then practice, practice, practice at home. No impact, and good for you!
I've decided to keep the 37s. Too much trouble to do a return and be home for the delivery (gotta pay the customs agent!) That, and it just may have been a chilly afternoon the first time I tried them on. Maybe next time I'll order two sizes and then sell off the one I don't want to keep. As it is, I don't have a ton of extra material flapping about, so I think these will do.Quote:
Originally Posted by GLC1968
I've done a little walking around in them -- light housework, etc. As I moved around the fit improved, almost like a second skin but never snug. Today I did a Pilates workout with them. I LOVE how grippy the soles are!
I think I'll really enjoy these as an indoor shoe, something to alternate with the Birkenstocks I usually wear around the house. Gotta be able to walk barefoot before I can run barefoot!
Thanks Knot - can't do any sort of work yet, but it's something to keep in mind. I've always had weak hip flexors so that makes sense. Weak ankles, too, but if the inside of the shoe won't support them maybe they'll strengthen on their own.
I'll just keep walking. At least this brace forces me to have good posture :)
I'm doing the walking with the VFFs, too, as it makes me pay more attention to my feet. I'm less likely to trip and fall (and hurt myself) wearing them.
I came across this thread last week and read "Born to run" because of it. I always liked being barefoot and was walking barefoot or in Flip Flops all summer since I was a child. Other shoes have always hurt my feet (I hate winter!). I did however never (as a grown-up) try to run barefoot, because I was listening to all those advices about how you need thick cushioned running shoes for overpronation or supination or whatever because otherwise you would hurt knees and ankles and how unreasonable it would be to not use such shoes.
Yesterday it was raining all afternoon and I decided to go for a barefoot walk. Nobody was out there except me and thinking about the book and this thread after some minutes I just had to try to run. I thought I would give it a try for a few steps and just see how it would feel. I was prepared that it would maybe hurt and I wouldn't know the right technique and would have to stop very soon.
I couldn't stop. I'm not a good runner at all, but I ran my whole walking lap thats quite steep in some parts and about 5 miles long. The road was so warm from the hot days last week and so clean because of the rain and the cool water felt so good and it didn't hurt at all. Going uphills wasn't exhausting.
It sounds stupid but it felt so right and was so joyful that I kept telling myself that running for so long isn't recommended at all for the first barefoot-running-experiences but would have been "sad" about having to stop. It actually felt better than walking. Normally I run my lap (a flat 5 k, in shoes) thinking about how long it will take me until it's over because my knees and my toes and my shins start to hurt and I have a hard time hitting 5k. It was so much easier without shoes, which was the last thing that I would have expected.
Yesterday I would have wished that the road would go on and on and on. :)
I thought I'd have to share - in the end it's your fault that I gave it a try ;) I'm looking forward to my next barefoot-run and will try to stop myself earlier this time.
I am not a runner but I wanted to add my 2¢ in here about the VFF Bikilas.. I finally got a pair, and I originally thought these would be neat due to the extra tread.. and offer a little more protection from the crazy hot pavement we get here in TX, except that they don't even come *close* to fitting me - I can't even get them on my feet :( I can just barely get my KSO's on (I eventually cut a slit in the top so I could get them on easier - it doesn't seem to effect the performance of those), so I knew to order a size up (my KSO's are a size smaller than my classics) and even with that, there's just no way I can get my feet in these... there's no stretch in the material, and I'm not willing to cut a brand new pair of VFF's for the sake of "maybe" being able to put them on, so I'm sending them back :(
Very disappointing.. my classics in 39 are on the verge of being too big, so trying a 40 is really out of the question - they'd be much too big and I'm not convinced it would really give any more space in the instep area.
Sarahspins, can you just run or walk barefoot on grass?
After all, that's what "barefoot running" is all about.
I prefer to run on grass and dirt barefoot, and in Chaco Z1 or Z2 sandals on asphalt.
(and I would never consider running in my sandals "barefoot" running. That's shod running.)
VFF just don't fit me, and I tried them a few years ago and do realize there are more models now. But I've run barefoot my whole life and don't really have a desire to wear VFF anyway.
Sarahspins, slightly off-topic, but how did you even get a pair of Bikilas without trying them on? Not being snotty, I just want some and supposedly they aren't available online.
I bought mine on zbsports.com back when a big lot of them came in. Kayak shed, zbsports, and city sports are the 3 reliable places I've bought stuff that do carry Vibrams. (REI too but I don't think they have Bikilas)Quote:
Originally Posted by jessmarimba
The way I understand it is that a store can only carry them online if they carry them in a physical storefront too.
Got mine from City Sports. They are the hardest to put on of all of the styles that I have (Treks, KSO, Sprints, Bikilas).Quote:
Originally Posted by jessmarimba
I tried on a pair of KSOs while my mother and I were at a local outdoor shop in the NC mountains. She was buying Keens. I decided I'd try the KSOs for kicks. I did not like them at all. I'm sticking with my bare naked feet.
Have to add my .02. Have been run/walking in VFF KSOs for about 6 weeks now. I'm up to 3 miles, slow. No knee, shin, ankle, or joint pain of any kind. The only problem I had was hot spots on the balls of my feet and on my big toe. This past weekend, I bought Bikilas and Injinji socks. Problem solved. I never ever thought I would be able to run. Now, it's just a matter of bringing my cardio up. I love love love my fivefingers.
Wow, this post looks like I created a new user name and posted my experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsOski
+1 on everything you said! That includes the experiences and the distance and speed.
(BTW - I also found that aloe gel right after a run on the balls of the feet and big toes did the trick and hot spots eventually went away).
4.5 miles tonight in my huaraches from invisibleshoes.com. It was so much fun! I even had a quick stop to pick blackberries by the side of the road (I was starving and thirsty and mother earth provided!).
GLC - Those look really cool (I'm guessing it's invisibleshoe.com - without the S)! Do you really not feel the part between the toes? I'm looking at some Soft Sole shoes for winter - just to kick around in. Still not running, but my feet are happier for being less confined.
Yes, sorry...invisibleshoe.com! I can't wear sandals with the thing between the toes. It always hurts like a mofo. In fact, I have one pair of flip flops that reside in my pool bag, and I can *barely* stand wearing those for the quick walk to the poolside and for my shower.
I was super skeptical that these things would work because of that, but I was willing to give it a shot. I'm still constantly amazed that they don't hurt...at all. Not even on day one! Last night I periodically stopped to check for blisters between the toes because I was sure I'd get them there (not that I felt any rubbing...I didn't). No blisters. Not even a tiny bit red.
I have no idea why these are so 100% different from regular flip flop type shoes, but they are. They protect me from hot sidewalks and sticky stuff...but that's about it. I still feel acorns and cracks and rocks and just about any other imperfection. It's *almost* the same sensation as being totally barefoot but they are 'legal' in restaurants and stuff.
Oh, and I'm MUCH better at running in these than I am at walking in them. My running technique is correct for barefoot, but I don't think my walking form is there yet. I kind of trip on them sometimes when walking (never an issue when running - even when tired). I'm getting better though!
I opted to buy the kit and make my own and they worked out really well. The pair I wear for running are the neon green but I'm noticing that they are picking up enough dust (it hasn't rained here in months) that they aren't as bright as they used to be. I also bought a black kit that I haven't yet assembled. I plan to wear those as more 'everyday' shoes (and I need to make them soon or it'll get too cold for sandals before I get a chance to wear them!!).
I have a novice question. I'm starting to run with a group training for a 5k and I've haven't run in years. I really need to get shoes of some kind and I was thinking of going right to VFFs or something similar. My question is if I pretty much go barefoot all the time around the house and only put on shoes to go outside or to work and the always come off promptly upon coming in the house, will I have an easier transition than someone who wears shoes all the time?
I ask because from reading this thread it seemed as if some people wore shoes even in the house and that being barefoot at all was foreign to them. I'm kind of hoping that it won't be so weird for me. :)
Thanks!
Yes, I think you will have it easier than someone who wears shoes all the time - at least for walking in VFFs (or other minimal shoe) and some of your running. For running, it will still be a big adjustment. However, if you're just starting a running program and considering VFFs/minimal shoes, I would start them together, so you can build your running muscles and your ankle/calf muscles at the same time. The plan for both is about the same and you might be frustrated to backtrack your running if you go from shoes to minimal shoes much later.Quote:
Originally Posted by carinapir
I'm one of those barefoot at every opportunity kind of people, so I wear my VFFs to work and whatnot and feel like I am cheating. :)
Well, it's not running, and it's not barefoot, but it's progress.
I spent all weekend on my feet in my flat Crocs Cleo sandals. A year ago my feet and my back would have been killing me after three hours. Now, I'm just tired. Woot!
Just found this article on the epidemic of foot injuries from barefoot running.
http://running.competitor.com/2010/0...epidemic_10118
Both Daniel Lieberman and Christopher McDougall (the dude who wrote "Born to Run") recently developed metatarsal stress fractures from running barefoot (McDougall) and in VFF (Lieberman). Rather difficult to say those two didn't ease into barefoot running properly...
(a piece of irony the author of this article missed)
Very interesting. My husband had a problem with his metatarsal on one foot about a month ago after almost exclusively wearing FiveFingers Treks (his issue was corrected by chiro and stretching) and now he splits his time between those and a pair of Keen sandals to give his feet a break. He doesn't really run in his, just walk. He did a few bike rides in them and decided they weren't the right feel for that either (so now he rides in the Keens :P).Quote:
Originally Posted by KnottedYet
Reminds me of the Atkins guy having a heart attack ;)
I get the point that it is wrong to believe that barefoot running will magically prevent injuries and that some problems will be more common in barefoot runners (PF) than in shod ones.
I don't however get why anyone, especially a scientist, would come to the believe that most humans where not made to walk or run without shoes. The author of the article compares shoes with wearing glasses. He would have a point here, but would anyone believe, that because there are humans that need glasses, human eyes generally were not made to be used without them?
Also, how can we know if the problems caused by barefoot running in new barefoot runners aren't caused by the fact that most of us are used to wearing shoes all our life, from early childhood on?
A really neutral scientific discussion about barefoot running seems to be difficult because a lot of "believe" seems to come into play when ever it is discussed.
"I don't however get why anyone, especially a scientist, would come to the believe that most humans where not made to walk or run without shoes."
Nobody believes that.
However, everyone recognizes that humans were never meant to be sitting on their butts all day long in front of a computer and then rip off their shoes after wearing them for 40 years and start running barefoot on asphalt.
And everyone recognizes that some folks are better runners than others. Hot and sexy runners will be hot and sexy regardless of shoes or bare feet. Crappy runners can be better runners with shoes that help them. Some feet (especially "Irish" or "Greek" or long-second-ray-long-toes feet) do better without the highly engineered shoes on the market these days, because they were made for the other foot structure ("Egyptian" or short-second-ray-short-toes feet).
I have to roll my eyes at most of the barefoot hoorah from both sides in the media. Folks who grew up in the country (where we spent the summer barefoot outgrowing our shoes) spent a lot of time barefoot as kids. I've been running barefoot my whole life and still do. But I fall out laughing when some soft city-slicker goes out running on asphalt and concrete barefoot and goes rhapsodic over how "natural" it is. Nope, dirt and rocks and cow pies are "natural." Asphalt is a repetitive stress injury just waiting to happen, and it does regardless of the fitness of the runner: metatarsal stress fractures and plantar fasciitis are a'comin' down the pike.
Look at your foot. It is an amazingly beautiful thing. Flexible and irregular to interact elegantly with irregular surfaces. In one split second it is soft and molds itself around the surface it lands on, in the next split second it is a rigid lever and pushes off that same surface. All those little muscles let the foot change its shape so one step it is domed up over a sharp rock and the next step it is sagged down into a hole in the path, constantly interacting and adapting to the changing world so your legs can do their work. Asphalt is just slamming this beautiful foot onto the same flat hard boring surface over and over again. Slam-slam-slam. No variety. Muscles fatigue and fail, while others don't get the chance to do their job. Some bones crack under the constant unremitting unvarying pressure.
I don't blame shoes for modern man's foot woes. I blame asphalt.
I agree. I'll bet these guys were running primarily on hard, flat surfaces as you are describing, and that's how they got into trouble. If they had been running trails at least part of the time, they likely wouldn't have gotten the overuse injuries that they did. Asphalt is kind of a crappy surface to do a lot of running on whether barefoot or in shoes, and you're right, it's NOT natural. Better to mix things up so you're not overloading the same structures all the time. As for me, I'll continue running barefoot or in VFFs because it's been working well for me and I know not to overdo the hard flat surfaces (they're horribly boring anyway!).Quote:
Originally Posted by KnottedYet
And another thing: I wonder how many of these "PF" cases from barefoot running are really referred pain from trigger points in foot and calf muscles that are being used in unaccustomed ways and knotting up. Could be that for some of these patients all they need is to work those out and their problem will go away.
And concrete. EVILQuote:
Originally Posted by KnottedYet
Unpaved roads are actually worse. I run on a lot of them. They're noticeably harder than asphalt (on a par with concrete), AND they're covered with 1-2" diameter crushed stone with sharp edges that I wouldn't dare ANYONE to run barefoot on.
I blame roads. Which were originally created for wheeled vehicles. It's the wheel's fault.
I was referring to the linked article that says:Quote:
Originally Posted by KnottedYet
I find it misleading.Quote:
"Hence, “If we can say that everyone is built to run barefoot we can say that everyone is built to fly a fighter jet without glasses,” says Pribut. “We don’t all have 20/20 vision.”
Of course what you say is true and someone used to wearing shoes for 40 years probably can't rip of their shoes and go out running on concrete for miles and miles and expect that it will do any good - I totally agree with you.
But that doesn't mean that humans were originally "not made" for going barefoot the way we are not made to fly fighter jets (with or without glasses) - of course we are. Even the not-so-good runners (like me) are born with feet made to go barefoot. While I won't ever be a world class runner, and agree that I would need the right genes or bodily features for it, with some training I am able to do the activity called "running" because the human body per se is capable of it.
The article saysI don't know. The authors point of view seems distorted for me. Not everyone can be a competitive distance runner, it's probably true. Take a cheetah, put it in a small cage for the most part of it's life and maybe put some strange shoe-like things on it's feet. This cheetah probably won't be a world-class sprinter when released after several years. Maybe it will be fat and not used to exercise and have problems with it's joints and knees...Quote:
"Consider this: Every cheetah is a world-class sprinter. No exceptions. By contrast, the degree of interindividual variation in distance running ability in the human population is incredibly vast."
So, maybe every human is a runner. There is no need to be "world class" but maybe originally every human being was designed for running. Maybe it's just modern lifestyle that makes some people incapable of doing so.
I'm not a scientist, I can't verify this, it's just a thought.
I've read several times over the last couple of weeks, popular articles that quote scientists that totally reject Lieberman's research (without mentioning it at all, actually), and state that humans categorically did NOT evolve to run, but rather that walking is our only natural gait.
I don't actually have a citation because it just seemed so physically wrong that I just ignored the articles, but I do remember reading them. :rolleyes:
Susan, don't forget this is a popular media article. Not a scientific article. Read the science, none of it says humans weren't meant to walk or run barefoot.
No one is saying that.
I hate the way the barefoot thing is blown up in the popular media, and the religious fervor with which people distort the science.
Of course the article is misleading. Hyperbole sells! This is NOT a scientific paper!
The author's valid point is that there are some folks right now (now, like, right now, 2010) who should NOT be running barefoot. That certainly doesn't mean all through human history no-one ran barefoot, nor does it mean that all through human history there weren't poorly running cavemen who would have benefitted from a pair of Nike Pegasus running shoes. The point I think he missed, however, is that asphalt is not the optimal surface to run on in any case. Hence the need for shoes for a lot of people, and why barefooting on asphalt leads to so many RSI's.
Even the critiques of Lieberman are off, they are attacking straw men (things Lieberman never said). Lieberman's work was about biomechanical strategies of gait, and look at how his work got distorted! He even has disclaimers all over his website trying to get out from under the distortions people have heaped upon his work.
Oh yes, of course you are right. But it's sad, thats what I meant in my first post, I wish there were more "neutral" discussions and articles about this and not only this. It would be much easier and more fun to read, discuss and think about things like (barefoot)running or nutrition (and a LOT of other things) if there was more plain facts and information instead of this... like you called it "religious fervor".
Now you have mentioned it I will have to search for Liebermans website ;)
Have you done any searches on Scholar Google?
It's fabulous! http://scholar.google.com/
Peer-reviewed journals tend to be a bit more objective, but they can get all religious-fervor-y, too. Buyer beware. Bryan Heiderscheit's work (University of Wisconsin) is beautiful and elegant, and most of his recent papers are available free/pdf. I talked with him at a seminar, and I was ready to throw my career to the wind and start over if I could just be one of his students. :p
If you want to read a bunch of podiatrists (who all run barefoot and have no issues with it, but are constantly under attack and seen as "the enemy" by fervent barefooters) grumbling and grousing, check out http://podiatry-arena.com/ The fellows on Podiatry Arena are a bunch of crabby squabbling naughty boys, but they link some great papers and give some very good clear explanations (while shooting each other down) of findings.
Quote:
"Consider this: Every cheetah is a world-class sprinter. No exceptions. By contrast, the degree of interindividual variation in distance running ability in the human population is incredibly vast."
Cheetahs in the wild still need to run down their own food; humans do not. This kind of running is still subject to natural selection for cheetahs; it is not for humans. This argument is specious.
Another thing to consider re: the overuse injuries: weight. I remember from reading McDougall's book that he's a fairly big guy; don't know about Lieberman. I would guess that heavier (and I don't just mean obese--I'm talking about the very solid, muscular builds as well) people are more likely to get the stress fractures and other issues from running barefoot on asphalt and concrete just because there's more force being exerted on their foot structures with each step, no matter how good their form is, than for a lighter person.
It sure is.Quote:
Originally Posted by MDHillSlug
But it's juicy hyperbole, and just the fact that it's such a stupid thing to say has probably spurred people to read the article. "Hey, Joe, look at what this dork said!" The hit count goes up, and the dude writing with the subtlety of a sledge hammer gets to write more articles...
They'll have the appropriate robustness in the bones for their build, regardless if they are built to be large or small. Stress fractures are just RSI's, which anyone can get if they are doing the same motion too many times. I've got tiny skinny women with stress fractures, even multiple fractures over a history of many years of running; and I've got big burly guys who run and have never had a single one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolt
The difference I see when I do their gait analyses is that the people with the RSI history (mostly tibial stress fractures, secondarily metatarsal fractures) are over-striders. An occaisional over-stride is not a problem, it's a valid strategy in some situations. Just like running barefoot on asphalt occaisionally is not a problem, it's a valid encounter with a surface. The problem is when people overstride CONSTANTLY, and to extend my analogy, when they run barefoot on asphalt CONSTANTLY.
Repeat the same stress over and over again, and the tissues never get a chance to do their normal recovery, regardless of how strong or weak or big or little a person is.
Knott, I just caught your new sig line. :D :D
But now you've given me scary visions of deep well sockets and pneumatic impact tools. :eek::cool: