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BikerZ, your words struck a note with me and I can truly empathize with you. We can continue to dismiss any of their shallow notions of what we are perceived to be and what we're capable of doing by continuing to do what we love. Confidence in ourselves will trump their criticism any day.Quote:
Originally Posted by bikerz
Excellent post, bikerz, you've put into words a lot of things that have been bothering me about this Susan Boyle hoopla but that I haven't been able to put together in an coherent way.
With all due respect CC, to some it might be.:)Quote:
Originally Posted by crazycanuck
You've been critical of me for quoting scripture to explain my position on issues, so with all due respect, I'd appreciate it if you would avoid issues that your anti-religious posture keeps you from understanding.;)
Sorry for the hijack...
Well said Mr. Silver. And I don't think you hijacked the thread, it was already hijacked. The topic is about not judging people on their appearance. Maybe we should just stick to that....
[QUOTE=bikerz;420269]I wonder if anything will really change as a result of all this. Will audiences and judges on these shows become kinder and more respectful?[QUOTE]
Not whole crowds of people, the herd mentality instinct will continue to be there. And the judges..as becoming "kinder" or more reticent in negative remarks, I find that hard to believe much change will happen on T.V. for especially reality show producers who want to maintain audience ratings and remain on T.V. These shows do not demonstrate subtlety in human behaviour and human relationships.
Which is why I never watched any of the reality shows. Bombastic, often hurtful human relationships or competing over something that is not even a real long-term sport/or any sport at all. The only useful thing is show how selfish and narcissistic, human beings can become.
I am willing to believe there will be a few individual tv viewers sparked to rethink their own personal situation and move on things they have longed to do for a long time. Some people need external VISUAL stories like S. Boyle's singing, played out in front of them, to give them the extra motivation.
Go BikerZ! And that helps me say what I've been thinking, which is: I wonder how the cycling community would respond if Susan Boyle showed up on a bike? In a jersey and lycra? On an expensive bike? I am sure there are many cyclists who would not make fun of her or roll their eyes. And I'm equally sure that plenty would.
And while I am not religious myself, I really cannot understand why some people think it's okay to be rude to those who are. They're entitled to their own beliefs.
I don't have a TV :p but I noticed this news on BBC. However, since I never like to watch this kind of shows, I didn't go to check the youtube clip. Until I heard it from my friend, saying "just google her".Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenSojourner
When I watched the clip, I didn't know what I would expect. :eek: Yes, that guy who interviewed Susan -- Simon? -- was very rude to her. :mad:
Susan must have gone through this kind of judgmental looks all through her years. It's great that she has that spirit to show them who she is and what she is capable of.
I don't think I'd have her courage to face similar situations. Well done, Susan.
More. The recent comment on the youtube clip said that you guys just have to watch more operas and then you won't be too surprised, something like that. No. Not really, even in opera.
In the old days, we can tolerate singers to be fat, but, still, the singers had to be "presentable" on the stage. Nowadays, we even hardly see these overweighted sopranos or tenors in opera. Even now most of the classical music performers have good looks, especially the younger generations.
Woah there. Trek sighs, now here this thread goes on another tangent.Quote:
Originally Posted by wildeny
Since when did good looks equal thin?
Since when does not being "presentable" mean fat?
Sure, if you're going to sing Carmen, for the role it's best to be young and slimmer soprano (or is it an alto part? :confused:). But the voice itself could be any skilled singer.
I can't find the quote but I once read and interview with Aretha Franklin saying she has a "singing weight". She struggled with weight but found if the gets too thin to be "presentable" the voice, which is her gift suffers.
Lastly I'll say this about that :rolleyes: I find many of us (us meaning cyclists as a group, this group as a whole) do not deal well with issues of race and class which for some can include weight. My LBS has a loyal growing client list of cyclists of color :p. This is great for him and great for them as their money is just as green and he's a great wrench.
But I sadly hear reports of poor treatment at other shops and even on rides, being ignored or worse. :mad: All this in the bluest of blue areas of a blue state.
How many of us are Bikesnob______ (your city here) if someone doesn't look good, or has a cheaper bike? Have you made a choice who to hang back with, help or ride with based on how they look?
In talking to friends and coworkers about my sport I've been told
"cycling? I won't ever ride again, that's a rich white skinny person's sport". :mad:
"well you play golf, and tennis, and I'm not skinny or rich so?" :rolleyes:
"yes, but they welcome me at the club and the links. I went to a shop, tried to join a ride and .... :("
Lucy, we as a cycling culture "got some 'splaining to do" if we want this sport to grow especially in the US. :cool: I think Susan's appearance on the scene is a teachable moment to think and talk about who and how do we prejudge and how does it effect them and ultimately us :cool:
Has anyone besides me wondered if the Susan Boyle phenomenon was planned? I don't watch this type of show, but it seems reasonable to assume that the people who produce the show have some idea of what's going to happen. It's also reasonable to assume that they know what will appeal to the public.
I'm not certain but I believe the uplifting, follow-your-dreams sort of theme is prevalent in at least some other televisions shows (Oprah) so the popularity of an event like this would not be a surprise.
Pam
Late to this thread, but just watched the vid, wow... love it! (sure there is a lot more going on in all these post, but just on the OP...) That is the best kind of beautiful that any amount of $, make-up, clothes, etc. can't buy... from the inside out:cool:. It made my day:). Thx for sharing that.
I just stumbled upon this :)
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/26/fashion/26looks.html
Wow, this is just what I was waiting for! I've been thinking about this but was unsure about to word it. The TV show and the rude judges and audience are one thing, but that is sort of the name of the game, what I kept thinking about is WHY does her voice surprise me so much. And it still does - I heard a recording of her singing "Cry me a river", one of my favourites, and it literally gave me goosebumps. But even though I knew in advance what she looks like, my brain still kept telling me that I was hearing this beautifully dressed and made-up woman, not necessarily young, but sophisticated and elegant. And I was wondering why I had such trouble making those two images meet, and if there is any reason one expects a voice to mirror an appearance.
Norway has another story a bit like this one, the winner of "World Idol" a couple of years ago is Norwegian, he sounds like Bono in U2 and looks, well, Simon Cowell (same judge) "you sing like an angel and look like a hobbit". He's been a lead singer for years. Red bushy hair, broad face, enormous gap between his front teeth.
And yet another example of looks, or our stereotypes based in looks, belying the voice within... I heard the voice first, coming from the tv while I was in the kitchen getting a cup of tea. A bass (bass-baritone, as it turned out) so deep and smooth and immense I was expecting, well, not this. Here's a series of samples to let you too hear the voice first, starting deep, then showing his range, some discreet photos, and then the whole person in action and context. I could have included some classic opera too, but you can look up more if you're enchanted. Enjoy :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbcBr...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E83BW...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkwKK-NjryU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RESX8...eature=related
Since my entire life, anyway. Not saying it SHOULD be that way or that it's in anyway OK, it just IS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trek420
I've been thin, or at least a lot thinner than I am now, and I've definitely been younger.
And I can promise you, I was treated with more respect and KINDNESS when I was young and thin than I am now that I'm old and fat.
As for bike culture being exclusive, I've always been on the outside of that. Every bike club I've ever joined but one made me feel like an outsider. For instance, routinely getting dropped on "no-drop" rides, and having bike club SAG members repeatedly trying to pick me up and drive me to the ride end because they're assuming I can't make the ride. After all, I'm fat. So I MUST be ready to drop dead at any instant. I'm not talking at the tail end of the ride either, there was only one time I was that far back in the pack and that was because the woman I was riding with was so slow. Well, the semi-custom bike some local (male) mechanic had made for her was too big for her, she could hardly help it.
Going to a bike shop is a real crap shoot too. Since 1996 I've found exactly TWO bike shops that didn't immediately dismiss me because I was a woman. Neither of these were in Portland OR, a supposedly highly bike-friendly city (but apparently not bike-RIDER-friendly, LOL!)
I walked into one bike shop a while back, there were no customers, the guy in the shop glanced up and immediately dismissed me and went back to reading whatever it was he was reading. He continued to ignore me even after I walked up to the counter right in front of him. Middle aged fat women held no interest for him. When I finally managed to get his attention, he sent me home with the wrong part - all I wanted was a set of plugs for my bar ends because I'd lost one. The ones he gave me were too small, besides being crappy.
The other bike shop in town treated me with respect, so guess which one I give my business to now?
I've seen people snub other people because their bikes weren't good enough, because they weren't wearing an expensive jersey or were otherwise "dressed funny"; because they were too old, too weird looking, too female, too fat.
The one bike club I've ever belonged to where they didn't behave this way (in the main, you're always going to find the odd snob) was very instrumental in the fact that I rode more often - more group rides, more incentive to ride. I prefer to ride "alone" but it's nice to ride "alone" in a sponsored ride, it's something somebody else planned and I'm just more likely to actually ride then. And for REALLY long rides, SAG is pretty much required since I don't have anybody to call in an emergency, LOL! I've only ever had to do that once but I was glad I had the option because I was 30 miles out of town when I had a mechanical problem I couldn't handle on my own.
Same sort of things went on in the one Ski club I belonged to, and I wasn't even old and fat then, LOL!
There are 2 bike clubs near where I live now, and one of them doesn't even HAVE any "no-drop" rides (guess which bike shop they're associated with?) Their "slow" ride averages 14-16 mph over a 20 to 25 mile course. I'm serious, they consider that the entry level, slow ride.
I can see where someone new to the sport could feel very intimidated and unwelcome. I'm not sure what I can do about it personally other than refrain from participating.
That made me cry!( Im feeling sentimental)
I had two experiences with looks.
I was riding, in all my hip black gear and saw two older folk, whom I caught up with. I said( and they were normal, windcheater ,slightly large white haired ) as they looked nice, can I ride with you>They said, well you may not want to, as youll most likely go faster than we will. So I said, I only LOOK fast! I just need to pace someone as I am getting killed in this wind. The lady, who was a good deal larger than I, beat me like gong - she FLEW! Her hubby chatted with me.
ON my commute last week, I passed a lady , a large lady riding at a good clip , on the hill. She caught up to me and I said, oh good, someone to ride with, oh maybe not as she shot past me, saying, its only hills Im bad at!
She was GORGEOUS!!
I am passed everyday by well, big people FLY BY me on bikes and wow! Its beautiful. I love to see people so fit and graceful on their cycles. I can think of nothing Id like more than being able to be strong and beautiful, in motion. Like they are.