Where do you work that you can wear VFF's there?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tri Girl
I'm trying to figure out how to get from motion control + custom orthotics to VFF's without injuring myself.
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Where do you work that you can wear VFF's there?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tri Girl
I'm trying to figure out how to get from motion control + custom orthotics to VFF's without injuring myself.
I'm sort of in the same boat as you. I really want to try VFF's, but I'm a bit hesitant given my past history with ongoing foot issues. I'm currently wearing (and have always worn) stability shoes with an OTC heat-moldable insert. I have a set of custom orthotics that my podiatrist had made for me, but after 3 adjustments to them, I still cannot comfortably wear them while running. So I've pretty much given up on them and they are now $600 dust-collectors. :mad:Quote:
Originally Posted by MDHillSlug
Two years ago, I had a bad case of PF/heel spur in my left foot...but it seems to be under control at the moment and is not causing any pain now. However, I do have a toe-numbing/tingly issue on my right foot which generally flares up anytime I run over 3 miles. I'm not sure if it's a friction/swelling issue, a nerve issue, or what...but it's really annoying and frustrating...and I've tried dozens of different running shoes in hopes of resolving this problem with no success so far. I would love to try a minimalist shoe like the VFF's, but fear that I will still have the toe pain issue. Any ideas on how I could go about making the transition a little easier and less painful?
Posture! Posture! Posture!
I'd say that 95% of the patients I see for "pronation" are a posture problem, and at most maybe 5% are a structural problem.
To find your good foot posture, it really helps to have someone work with you who knows what makes the lower extremity pronate and how to un-pronate it. It's not just the foot, it's everything from the hip down which pronates.
For starters, stand in front of your mirror in your underwear. (or a pair of shorts if you are shy) Stand like you normally stand. Note your hips: do they look wide? Note your knees: do they look narrow and bent backwards? Are your kneecaps looking kind of cross-eyed? Are your ankles wider than your knees? (like Betty Boop) Is your inside ankle-bone hanging out over empty space? Is your arch flattish? Are you standing duck-footed?
Those are all subtle hints that you are pronating (which is the entire leg, remember!)
How to unpronate: straighten your feet. Pull your lower belly flat. Tuck your tailbone under (don't stick your @$$ out like Betty Boop). Squeeze your buns together a little. Unlock your knees. Quick! Look at your feet! Where is your ankle and how is your arch? If the arch has returned and your inside ankle bone is now over the inside of your foot instead of outer space, this is what caused your pronation - GIRL HIPS. If the foot still looks sloppy and the ankle is still hanging to the inside of the foot, try pushing the outer edge of your foot into the ground. You may have a combination of sloppy girl hips and sloppy-foot-desperately-trying-to-clutch-at-the-ground.
Whatever you did to fix your foot posture, work on making that your habit. Usually you can play with it all in front of the mirror and figure out which one thing makes the rest of it line up. (in my case tucking my butt back where it belongs, instead of sticking it out like a baboon in heat which flops my belly flab out over my waistband and locks my knees and pronates my feet)
If you can't do anything with your muscles to even change your foot posture the slightest bit, then you need some custom orthotics and structural help.
Get your foot posture up and running, and barefoot running will go much easier. (I prescribe barefoot running to help teach posture, as well.)
Take off your right shoe and sock. Look at the sole of your right foot. Look at the ball of your right foot. Is there a nice callus (or thick skin) under the ball of your big toe? There should be.Quote:
Originally Posted by nscrbug
Is there a callus or thick skin under the ball of your pinky toe? There should be.
Is there a callus or thick skin under the ball of any other toe? NOT such a good thing. From what you describe I expect there is one under the ball of the second (index) toe or the one next to it. Or maybe between the ball of the big toe and the index toe.
If there is a callus or thick skin, you probably have a dropped met head which is causing compression on one of the nerves that runs through the ball of the foot.
It's not a big deal, it's pretty easy to correct with exercises, and it often goes along with a postural pronation issue.
Let me know if you need the exercises.
(I'd get them rolling before starting the barefoot running, so the running can help you get the metatarsal arch back up to strength)
I think I need them:) All sorts of alarm bells went off for me when I read this - I think this explains why I have a very tough callous that goes from the callous under my big toe to by 4th toe. I've noted it before, and noted pain in bike shoes, but hadn't investigated much further. Barefoot doesn't hurt, interestingly. Of course, I'm only walking. I have a bit much weight to want to subject my knees to running until I can lose a little - or a lot (until then, spinning and walking as much as possible, plus some strength training).Quote:
Originally Posted by KnottedYet
I swear you should write a book - or offer a weekend class or something. Shoot - I'd fly to Seattle for one:)
CA
Me too!Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueberry
After reading the last series of comments, I thought I would at least ask. I have bunions on both feet. Since I have those, it has made me hesitant about wearing these shoes, let alone run in them.
Does anyone else have anything like this and using the VFF's? I used to walk around my house as a kid without shoes but have not since becoming an adult. My calves will probably kill me when I first start out.
Comments? Concerns?
Thank you,
Red Rock
I am curious about this too. I used to have bunions on both my feet. I had a bilateral bunionectomy. Now I have two screws in each foot. I'm really hesitant to try barefoot running . . . And maybe I don't need to, I haven't suffered running injuries in the past other than a cyst during my marathon training that went away after a week off. And last summer I got plantar fasciitis, but that was after a long Adventure Race.Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Rock
Barefoot running for people with bunions???
Ok, so I just checked the bottom of my right foot. I do have some thick skin under the big toe and pinky, just like you said I would. But I only found a very tiny spot of thick skin (I'm talking like the size of a rice grain) under the 2nd toe...and nothing under the rest. I do religiously moisturize my feet, though...sometimes 2-3x per day...so perhaps that is why I'm not finding a lot of calloused skin. Even under the big & pinky toes, what thick skin there is...it isn't very much at all. I really had to feel around to find it.Quote:
Originally Posted by KnottedYet
So...based on this, does this still mean that I might have a dropped met head? Or could this possibly be something entirely different...like a neuroma, perhaps? Although I don't feel a lump or anything unusual underneath or between my 3rd & 4th toes...which are the 2 affected toes. My former podiatrist (he moved to another state) also indicated that he did not feel anything unusual and didn't think it was a neuroma...yet he still suggested using a metatarsal pad in my shoes (which I've been doing). So I'm very confused and frustrated....
Linda
I don't do much running and my feet are fine, but I'm finding this all very interesting from an observer standpoint.
ncsrbug, it sounds to me (not knowing much) that podiatrists tend to only look at the feet, while the problem might really be further up. Afterall, the footbone is connected to the anklebone, etc. Maybe you could find a physical therapist or similar professional who looks at the whole package. Again, I don't know much, but it just seems like common sense, particularly given Knott's excellent discourse on the topic.
I teach. I've worn them for 2 weeks without any "no no" from my principal. The kids LOVE them and think they are too funny. I figure they are no uglier than the Ugg boots that teachers wear, or the crocs or open toed sandals.Quote:
Originally Posted by MDHillSlug
When I'm told I can't wear them anymore I won't. Until then, I'll wear them.
I think they've helped my posture. I've noticed it lately that I'm walking more with my shoulders back and standing taller. Don't know if it's the VFF's or not, but I like it.
I ran .5 mile with the VFF's today, then finished the 3 mile run with my running shoes & orthotics. I want to work up very slowly so I don't have any issues. I've been doing lots of arch stretching and calf stretches.
Crossing fingers this helps all my feet/knee/ITB problems...
Your podiatrist and I are on the same page.Quote:
Originally Posted by nscrbug
Yes, that "grain of rice" is a little callus from a dropped met head. Obviously it's not a bad one: you don't have issues until you've been running more than 3 miles. So I wouldn't expect a sucker the size of your thumb (like mine was, and my toes were miserable sad creatures nearly all the time).
The dropped met head just means your metatarsal arch is sloppy. The muscles in there are either weak, or on vacation. You can help cue the arch by putting in a metatarsal button (arch support) that goes well behind the ball of your foot. (if you have a met cushion *under* the ball of your foot, I beg you to take it out for a couple weeks and see what happens)
When the metatarsal arch is squishing down, nerves that run between the "knuckles" of your toes get squished, too. You can have neurogenic pain from compressed nerves that feels exactly like a neuroma WITHOUT having a neuroma. You can have a functional problem, not a structural (fat lumpy irritated globby nerve body) problem, and still have similar sensations. (cyclists' "Hot foot" is a classic functional nerve compression problem)
The nerve getting squished may not necessarily be running along the dropped met head. The whole neighborhood is getting squished, it's just a matter of who squeaks first.
Somewhere around here is a detailed set of exercises I wrote up for a dropped met head. I think it was in a Morton's Foot thread. I'll go find it. ETA: here it is http://forums.teamestrogen.com/showp...2&postcount=40
And yes, dropped met heads sometimes go along with pronation posture issues, but they don't really fix themselves without some direct attention to the foot itself.
Barefoot vs. VFF
VFF are shoes. In fact, they are shoes with the same thickness of sole and lack of support structure as the training and racing flats we wore back in the 70's. Nothing new there. (what is new is the toes, which I'll get into later) We ran looong distances and fast races in shoes very similar to VFF and Newtons, etc.
Big wedge heels and complex support structures have been the fashion for 30 years or so. I think we're seeing a backlash against that now.
Here's my opinion why: it is very hard to run in poor posture in training flats.
(Mind you, I think everything wrong with the universe is due to poor posture.)
Let me start off by throwing a metaphor into the mix.
Pretend we've got a teenager who slouches. Are we immediately going to give him pain drugs and put him in a brace and run tape along his extensor muscles and make him sit in a high-backed ergonomic chair? No, we're gonna yell at him to sit up straight! If he can sit up straight on his own, then we know it's just a sloppy posture problem, and we nag him to change his habits. If we make him sit on a stool in good posture, it's hard work and he can't do it for long, but it's good training. If we put him on a plane for Australia, are we gonna make him sit on a stool? Heck no, we're gonna put him in a nice ergonomic chair! Sitting on a stool in good posture for that long would be agony.
However, if our teenager simply cannot sit up straight on his own are we gonna put him on a stool? No. We're going to give him an ergonomic chair and we're going to investigate why he can't sit himself up straight and we're going to address the problem.
There is a time for the stool, and there's a time for the ergonomic chair.
... continued
Training flats (VFF, Newtons, etc) are the stool, standard modern running shoes are the ergonomic chair.
If you develop bad posture habits, there are modern shoes that will compensate for your bad habits and you can continue running. But bad habits often creep back up on people.
If you can fix your habits voluntarily and monitor yourself, running in training flats is a good way to correct yourself. The training flats won't hide your bad habits from you, you have to face them and deal with them.
Perhaps folks who could have voluntarily corrected themselves were all put into highly structured modern shoes. The shoes hid the problem, but the bad habit got worse and the posture got sloppier. What they needed to do was face the bad habit and fix it. (sit on the stool instead of the ergonomic chair). These are the folks who feel fabulous in training flats (VFF, Newtons, etc.).
But some folks really need the modern shoes. They can't correct themselves, for what ever reason. I wouldn't take their modern shoes away, but I'd work hard to figure out what was going on.
Now, if someone who feels great in training flats puts on a pair of modern shoes, are they being naughty? Heck no! No more than someone who has great posture is naughty for sitting in an ergonomic chair. It's not laziness, either. It's just a tool, not a moral judgement.
Barefoot.
When you are barefoot, there is no-where to hide...
I make my foot posture patients work barefoot... a lot. They start by working on standing barefoot in good posture. When they've mastered that, they work on walking around the house barefoot in good foot posture. When they have that under control, I have them jog through their houses barefoot.
I like barefoot. It is an excellent training tool. What you learn while barefoot will still be used while wearing shoes.
When I was in track we were all encouraged to run barefoot drills on the beach or on grassy fields. I think that's still pretty standard, from what I hear. Barefoot is some good stuff, if you are doing it in good posture.
If running barefoot long distances makes someone happy, I ain't stopping 'em. If they do best in training flats, more power to 'em. If they run joyfully in motion control shoes with custom orthotics, hot doggies for finding the right tool for the job. Just like we tell newbie cyclists to "ride your ride", we also need to "run your run."
If one thing isn't working, try something else. Don't be afraid to experiment, you never know what you'll discover!