Dealing with unemployment - anyone else?

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Originally Posted by ZenSojourner

You're 25 years old. If you think you are never going to change, your taste in music, your preferences in attire, your taste in food and entertainment, the type of men you date, what kind of friends you make and keep, well, all I can say is you've got a lot of surprises waiting in store for you. We ALL have "phases" we are going through. It's called LIFE. Growth brings change. If you continue to grow, I guarantee you will change your mind about LOTS of things. Personally I'm looking forward to growing into and out of a whole LOT of phases yet as I progress through life. The ones I've already outgrown are strung behind me like pearls; I'll be making new pearls and leaving them behind my entire life. I hope you do, too, whatever you feel about the pearl you're making right now. Not growing, changing, and learning would be such dreary tedium.

I'm on my fourth or fifth career change. I started out in biology and medical research, then software engineering, retired to homestead for awhile, then medical again, more homesteading, now I'm attending a doctoral program in clinical psych. Lots of pretty pearls, but I outgrew them and moved on.....

....And those of us who are telling you so are not fools blinded by conformism. We're women, many of us revolutionaries in our day, and some of us revolutionaries still, who have twice or three times the experience of the real world as you do, and who are trying to share some of that hard-won knowledge with an up and coming member of the sisterhood.

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Wow, what a great and wise post. Zensojourner- you have thoroughly inspired at least one person today- me.
Still working on my fifth or sixth different and challenging life at the moment...adding those pearls until I die...

Zensojourner, thanks for posting. The OP might not read it or care, but i was impressed and I am sure others that read this will benefit from the time you put into it.

Your mention of being accused of being a bra burner brought back memories. In my job as a file clerk, other young girls used to come up to me and ask if I had burned bras... I had a slightly different attitude from the rest of them and I guess it showed.

What a fascinating thread this has become!

Zensojourner - that was beautiful. I look forward to my new phases in life as well. Very well worded.

Flybye -another well written and expressed comment.

Ivana - I'm hearing a lot of "can'ts" whether typed or implied of why you can't find a job. Turn those into "cans". Target companies that you want to work for then find the decision makers in those companies and be persistant. I lost my job in August - the most senior person in my department, but they let me go and kept the guys. I sent out all sorts of feelers to everyone I knew and started doing my research on companies I would have liked to work with.

Long story short, I found a company I wanted to work for and I knew I could work from home doing it for the first time in my life. I'm a single parent and I was tired of spending my whole day working and commuting. I, very professionally, kept contacting the owner and my now new boss with reasons of why they couldn't afford NOT to hire me! With my skills and contacts I was able to justify my salary to them, and they didn't even have a position open! Finally, I pulled a little bluff that I had another company interested (but I was prepared if they called the bluff because I would not have been any worse off, and I was working with another company just didn't have the offer). Not only did I get an offer from them, but I work from home and my salary is $10,000 more than my last job. Persistance, done right, pays off.

Be patient, persistant and professional. It will pay off.

And I for one, would have loved to met a few of these TE'ers in their younger days and am grateful for the wisdom they so eagerly share with the rest of us. It's like an extended family of really cool sisters:p

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Originally Posted by ZenSojourner

Personally I'm looking forward to growing into and out of a whole LOT of phases yet as I progress through life. The ones I've already outgrown are strung behind me like pearls; I'll be making new pearls and leaving them behind my entire life.
[,,,]

I'm on my fourth or fifth career change. [...] Lots of pretty pearls, but I outgrew them and moved on.

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I agree, this is simply wonderful.

We may need to call you Pearl, ZS ... :)

Maybe your answer lies in the questions.

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Originally Posted by Pedal Wench

Okay - you asked for it...

You want mental strength? Running away is weak, not strong. Sticking around, caring for the cat you've committed to, using the security deposit to pay back even a portion of what you owe to some other person who probably can't run away from their responsibility - that takes strength.

When I was broke I cleaned the floors at a doggie day care. I did the samples at a grocery store. I stocked grocery shelves - Jelly Belly beans don't stock themselves. I owed people money and it was my responsiblity to pay them back. It took mental strength to spend every free moment working, but that's what had to be done.

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I agree with you. I'd do the bottom jobs - if any of them were hiring!!!! I havn't given up on the job front, but theres just so very little available and what is out there has just tons of applicants, even (esspecially) those types of jobs.

A lot of my friends are out of work and in the same situation. I don't know if somehow the economy problem is more concentrated here in Oakland or what, but what I see in the news is in no way comparable to what I see going on around me. It's A LOT worse for my peers and me. Probably because we're all young people who were on the bottom end of the food chain in the first place, and Oakland has always been the other side of the tracks for the bay area.

Also, "running away" wise, my plan has been Europe for a few years now. "I'll go to school, graduate, and go to Europe that summer" has been my plan since I started school. So if I don't accomplish that, then that is what I'd consider running away. Once I get a plan in my head I follow through with it no matter what, so the Europe thing isn't a whim. On the contrary, it's sticking with the original plan.

There are many reasons I want to do this:

1) Now is a good time to travel and a bad time to be out of work

2) My aunt in South Africa owns 2 travel agencies (Europe and Africa) and offered me a safari as a graduation gift. This means tickets half way to Europe for free and the rest of it for super cheap (and a free safari :D). Also, she has done some work in the fashion field herself and I havn't seen her since I was a kid. This is not only an opportunity to network globally, but also get some sound advice from a very successful woman who has run successful small bussineses in everything from scuba diving to fashion to travel.

Along the lines of cheap tickets, I'm 25 which is that last year you're considered a youth for a EuroPass. This means my choice of 5 countries, any train, any day, anywhere for 2 months for $300. If I wait past my birthday in november it will no longer be affordable.

3) I have family in Poland and England. I was born in Poland, so I'm already European. I havn't seen my family in years and my grandma will probably not last much longer. I'd like to see her before she dies, which I already missed out on with my grandpa.

4) I have friends in England and Italy. I'm also in the punk scene which means I have a vast network of family members I've never met who will provide me with squats and companionship anywhere in the world that I go, even though I've never met them, and we don't speak the same language. Believe it or not, we take care of eachother. And theres lots of us. Everywhere. I've done this many times for others, taken advantage of it a few times when I travelled, and it's an awesome community to be a part of.

5) I want to figure out where I want to spend the next few years of my life. I might never return, or I might come back. Either way I need to see whats out there and make an educated decision about what's the best environment for me and where I will be happiest in establishing myself. Now is a good time for that. In fact- it might just be the perfect time for that.

6) I've had a good place with a friend for the other cat, Molotov, for awhile. Finding vader the cat a home is only a challenge because I was supposed to be watching him temporarily, and I was never prepared to commit to a second cat in the first place. I will make sure that he does not end up in a shelter no matter what it takes.

Ok then, as you can see, Europe is much more then running away. In a way, it is coming home. I'm only trying to work so I can get those damn tickets and some spending money before I go. Unless, of course, I found something that made staying worthwhile. If I find an internship I'll hang around until its done, but theres no point in keeping a bottom of the rung dead end job and staying here just to maintain, when my plan was to go to Europe in the first place. Being houseless might be a blessing in disguise - I can save up 10 times faster that way and be outta here in 2 months. And who the hell is gonna give up a free safari anyway:D

It all sounds good to me! Go! Travel, have adventures, see it all! You can always work later. Things will turn around. There will be time for that later.

Oh well, then. Now it suddenly all sounds great. Forget everything we said!
Have a great time on your safari!

Sounds like a pretty good plan to me! I hope it comes together for you, and that you're able to find a home for Vader.

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Originally Posted by ZenSojourner

I, too, get the distinct impression that the original poster has some unrealistic ideas about us elderly types.

The current generation always seems to labor under the misapprehension that they're the ones who invented revolution.

I have to laugh when I see things like interviews of youngsters on TV regarding, say, internet access or the AMAZING idea that there are people over 30 on FACEBOOK! These kids say things like, "Oh, I think it's WONDERFUL that older people are figuring out how to use computers!"

LOL! Who do you think INVENTED them?

And talk about restrictive dress codes! I was in junior high school before girls were allowed to wear slacks to school, because it was considered "immodest". Yes, much more "modest" to walk up the stairs in a skirt while boys stood at the bottom yelling, "I see London, I see France, I see whosis' UNDERPANTS". Teachers weren't allowed to wear slacks to school until I was in High School.

I have my own "unusual" dress choices, but I don't dress that way (stretch pants, hippy tops, Salwar Kameez, sandals) when I NEED a job. Now when I have job CHOICES, it's a different matter. I once turned down a job that would have doubled my salary because they required women to wear 2" heels and dresses. You had to have a (male) supervisor's WRITTEN PERMISSION to wear slacks to work - as a PROGRAMMER.

But I already HAD a job. I didn't have $100,000 in debt and a cat to take care of with no income in sight.

Speaking of which, it's women like us who opened up engineering professions for other women. The school I attended ran their computer sciences department from the College of Engineering. That meant it was heavily math/engineering/electronics oriented. In nearly all of my classes I was the only girl, or one of only 2 or 3 (the others generally being foreign grad students). The attitude of the instructors ranged from full on chauvinism and unfair grading, to treating me like some kind of cute mascot, with the odd sexual predator thrown in. But every one of us dowdy, conservative women who forged ahead in a program like that made it easier for younger ones coming behind us to follow in our wake.

For years I was considered a bra-burning, ball-busting, man-hating Femi-Nazi for doing things like:

1) refusing to act as a typist when I had been hired as a software engineer
2) insisting that my boss call me by my name instead of "honey" or "dear"
3) informing my boss that it was unprofessional for him to touch me and stroke my hair and that I expected him to treat me professionally at all times
4) offering to sue the company for refusing to send me to a professional society convention (important to professional development and considered when granting promotions and raises) that ALL the men in the office were going to because, according to management, it "might make their wives jealous"
5) refusing to divulge my then-husband's salary to a potential employer during a job interview

And on and on ad infinitum

You may think the color of your hair and all those tattoos don't matter, but I guarantee you, they do. Especially in an employer's market, they are going to choose the LEAST controversial looking potential employees. Businesses are in business to make money. That means they cater to CUSTOMERS, not employees. And they are highly unlikely to hire someone that gives even the least hint that some customers might find them off-putting. I doubt that you would refuse to buy coffee at Starbucks because you were faced with an employee conventionally attired and coifed; but I guarantee you, however "judgmental" it may be, there are a whole lot of people who won't frequent an establishment where the employees are tattooed, pierced, and dyed in extremely unconventional ways. That means employers catering to those customers are not going to hire you, even if they have no personal qualms about your appearance and even if there's nothing formal in their hiring rules about it.

You're 25 years old. If you think you are never going to change, your taste in music, your preferences in attire, your taste in food and entertainment, the type of men you date, what kind of friends you make and keep, well, all I can say is you've got a lot of surprises waiting in store for you. We ALL have "phases" we are going through. It's called LIFE. Growth brings change. If you continue to grow, I guarantee you will change your mind about LOTS of things. Personally I'm looking forward to growing into and out of a whole LOT of phases yet as I progress through life. The ones I've already outgrown are strung behind me like pearls; I'll be making new pearls and leaving them behind my entire life. I hope you do, too, whatever you feel about the pearl you're making right now. Not growing, changing, and learning would be such dreary tedium.

I'm on my fourth or fifth career change. I started out in biology and medical research, then software engineering, retired to homestead for awhile, then medical again, more homesteading, now I'm attending a doctoral program in clinical psych. Lots of pretty pearls, but I outgrew them and moved on.

From what you've written so far here, all I can say is you seem very inflexible and rigid in your thinking. You expect the world to conform to you and accept you as you are without remark or hesitation.

It just doesn't work that way.

Obviously your choice of attire and appearance is just that, YOUR choice. But do not fool yourself into thinking that when you are on the far extreme of appearance that it will not have a negative effect on your chances of finding a job in such a bad economy. And those of us who are telling you so are not fools blinded by conformism. We're women, many of us revolutionaries in our day, and some of us revolutionaries still, who have twice or three times the experience of the real world as you do, and who are trying to share some of that hard-won knowledge with an up and coming member of the sisterhood.

Nobody is telling you you can't dress and look however you want in your free time; but work time isn't free time, it's time you're getting paid, and that gives the employer a say in what is and isn't acceptable during work hours. If the job requiring dresses and 2" heels had been my only option, I'd have taken it, worn the heels and dresses - and kept looking for something else. But I'd have taken it in the meantime and CONFORMED, externally only, because that would have ultimately served MY ends.

In a GOOD economy, you've got a lot more leeway to be revolutionary in your appearance. But in a BAD economy, you'll only be hurting yourself by presenting yourself to an employer with a "Here I am, take it or leave it" attitude. As you are finding out, they're leaving it.

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I'm quoting you're whole post cuz I found it quite insightful. If you havn't figured out yet, I'm probably one of the most stubborn people on Earth. I think it's an asset honestly.

Along the lines of you being considered a "bra burner", I think what you and your coherts did during that time was great. Good for you, and I'm glad there were people like that willing to pave the way so selflessly for both their own and future generations. What is it they say - "well behaved women rarely make history".

I am definitely not a well behaved woman either. There's one thing we have in common. It's not that I'm not listening or taking you guys' advice to heart, but we have to remember that there is just not enough room on a forum to explicitly explain every reason behind every decision one makes on these things. I promise you, my reasons are well thought out and not random or childishly/naively invented in my head.

Also, I have absolutely no bias against age. By all means I do respect the advice and experience of my elders because I understand that many of you have probably been there and know how to handle it. Hence posting here in the first place. I was just pointing out a possible generation gap with one poster to whom I was responding, I never called everyone old!

In any case, the problems in the world today are probably just as big as the ones you faced. We've got globalization, extensive exploitation of various poor countries, "free trade", the WTO, FTAA, World Bank, Nafta, the EU, Possibly now an Asian union, basically an entire "new world order" to deal with at the moment. Also the usual nuclear threats and genocide, as is typical throughout history. Precisely why we SHOULD have listened to our elders to avoid the repetitions of history.

These things are not so directly accessable to each individual. It's not like we can just walk right up to a summit and ask them kindly quit being exploitative slave owners. We all saw what happened in Seattle... and more recently in London. The way to fight them is to not participate in corporate agendas that promote them, and also the usual methods of civil disobedience that we have learned from our predeccessors, you.

For this reason, I don't drink starbucks coffee (slave labor beans that they blatently lie about). I don't eat at McDonalds (Environment). I don't buy most brands of jeans, or most brands of sneakers (Sweatshops). I paid an extra hundred dollars for crappy shoes because they were union made in a third world country. I ride a bike instead of driving. Sometimes I eat out of dumpsters because we waste insane amounts of perfectly good food. And most importantly, I do not participate in the "bussiness as usual" attitude of American Capitalism.

My "look" or "style" does not just look pretty. It represents me and what I do and how I think. It promotes diversity. It promotes creativity and art, and also draws attention to the fact that not all of us have to live in this little mold of what society wants us to be. That maybe, just maybe, their is an alternative way of surviving in this world without exploiting eachother and basing our society on who you're willing to step on to get to the top, or how many of our peers we are willing to betray. Money does not grow on trees. Food does. Money is just that - it's paper. It's not love or life or family or friends or even -gasp- food and water or a roof over our heads. Money didn't grow little hands and build those things, we did. And money isn't going to change how I live my life or what I do.

Call it an attitude problem, youthful rebellion, whatever you want. I do believe everyone should contribute to society and have a trade that they are good at and compensated for in some way or another. I went to school because I want that to be my trade. I just don't happen to believe in contribution too much to THIS society because I don't think it's working properly. Tragically, I live in it and have to survive somehow.

And so, instead, I contribute to alternative possibilities where and when I can, and how I look or think is one thing I don't change for money. I'll do what I have to to survive, but because of this belief system there are limitations to that. It's just plain against my beliefs to change myself for money! I accept that this comes with an excessive amount of limitations that I put on myself, but it doesn't limit me entirely, and I feel like if we don't contribute somehow now then things are never going to change.

It feels great that no matter what, money will not change me. I know you guys are not getting it, and many of you never will, but this isn't about pink hair. It's about ethics and staying true to yourself no matter what. I do what I have to do, but I sacrifice as much as I can to help change attitudes about our world, and by god if appearance is making that a challenge then so be it.

For every 3 year old that wants a mohawk when they see mine I see another glimmer of hope, and that is far more important to me then any amount of money ever will be.

Ok, so that is why I like my hair and don't want to change it. No more hair talk pleeeeease!!!!! That is as much explanation as I can possibly give you. And good god can we please not turn this into a debate about politics, we are all entitled to our beliefs here and lets just agree to disagree and try to learn from one another. ;)

I love you guys' stories, they're really great and inspiring. I think that's actually helped me out a lot, I laugh every time I open up this forum. It makes me feel a lot better and sort of puts things in perspective. Just writing this it makes me remember why I do what I do and who I am and how great that is. Screw money - I'm alive. Thanks for the reminder, I guess I really needed that.

I wish I'd had more people in my life like Zensojourner when I was lots younger, and the wisdom to listen to them with full respect. :)

I was probably slower than most folks about listening and learning from other women's wisdom, though.

I'm not sure why you asked for help. You've obviously thought this through thoroughly, had a plan, and are sticking with it. Go on and have a blast! Send us all a postcard;)

It is definitely much harder to get those entry level type jobs nowadays. I was a restaurant server for years, things started getting slower and slower because of the economy, and I finally quit my job last November to go back to school (I'm 31). It's a great time to go to school, what about continuing your education? Not to badmouth your degree, but an associates degree these days seems to be equivalent to a high school degree a decade ago. It's like you need a bachelors degree to get your foot in the door anywhere. Well, a degree, or tons of experience, but no one will hire you without experience, of course!

I am from San Francisco, but have lived in Portland OR the last couple of years. Unemployment is definitely bad in both CA and OR. There are restaurant jobs here that get 500 resumes for one open, part-time position. It's really crazy. Even I had a hard time finding work two years ago, even with my experience in Napa and San Francisco.

I know you are frustrated, but so are a lot of unemployed people. Competition is FIERCE. My advice to you is to suck up the debt, continue your education, and with more of a degree, you'll have many more opportunities to do interships or some kind of job in the field you want to be in. I'm heavily tattooed and I know what it's like to be prejudiced against because of my appearance. I've also had to wear long sleeved shirts to cover up, and I've worked in places that don't care. I am continuing on in my education in a field that doesn't care about tattoos!

I love this thread!!!

I don't have a lot to add because I've always been the one without the courage.

But I wanted you to know that my baby sister has lived the life you're talking about. Working as a professional musician, paying the bills as much as possible with restaurant jobs, working under the table, traveling overseas, homeless or sharing living quarters most of the time, and she too had responsibility for a cat during much of that time. About the time she turned 40 she "settled down," went to professional school, bought a house and hung out a shingle. She is my total hero. For other things too, but definitely for having the self-assurance to do whatever the heck she wants.

So I'm biased. But it CAN be done. I say go for it. You'll never have a better opportunity.