Wow.....I never considered the scar tissue thing (and I have plenty). I guess it's just as well that my insulin pump can't go through a backscatter machine. Either way, I'm getting a pat-down :/Quote:
Originally Posted by KnottedYet
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Wow.....I never considered the scar tissue thing (and I have plenty). I guess it's just as well that my insulin pump can't go through a backscatter machine. Either way, I'm getting a pat-down :/Quote:
Originally Posted by KnottedYet
Every time I fly out of Richmond (which has the wave mm machines) I end up with a secondary pat-down of my torso because of an "anomaly." Well, the machine isn't supposed to be able to penetrate skin, but the patdown always begins in the area of my back hardware.
I don't trust these things! But I can't avoid flying, either :(
Is it bad that I'm half hoping I don't get an interview at one of the schools I'm applying to because I'd have to fly? I hated it before the backscatter machines/"enhanced pat-downs" were introduced.
Since I've got no special needs or issues, I've got no problem with the security. While I recognize that some find offense in the "pat down" alternative, I'm guessing that after a couple of hours of it, it's as unpleasant for the "patter" as it is the "pattee".
I'm glad that I'm not a TSA agent:
- No upside
- No gratitude
- Heavily regimented
- Stressful monotony
- Stereotypes galor
I'm glad we have the TSA...I'm sorry we have a world that requires a TSA.
I hate flying for plenty of reasons...but security is no where near the top of my list
I just got back from a couple of job interviews that I had to fly to...didn't have to go through the scanner or get patted down at all. I did initially get picked to go through the scanner in Boston but they were kind of backed up so they ended up just sending me through the regular metal detector. Then on the way back I was flying out of Duluth, MN which has a very small airport that doesn't even have the scanner. Those small airports are kind of nice...not so much crowding and chaos, and it doesn't take forever to get to the gate!Quote:
Originally Posted by Owlie
Oak, the article that you posted certainly raises more questions than answers. Like many here, I don't have a desire to fly--especially now that I have new hardware. What is alarming to me is this gradual desensitization of the masses to the whims of questionable security measures. What you see is not unlike how the Jews were searched prior to being sent to the camps in Nazi Germany. It has sunk that low.
I still won't stop flying, but I wonder what the profile is for who gets scanned.
We flew from Logan to San Diego and back. DH got scanned both times and I was waved through.
He definitely looks "Semitic" and I got the Aryan genes.
Crankin, from what I've read from first hand accounts it seems that you will be TSA'd if you are 1) handicapped 2) elderly 3) woman. Arabs rarely get patted down, possibly due in part to their Sharia Law.
that doesn't make any sense. I fly a lot - the lanes where you will and won't get scanned are labeled, all you have to do is move over. He must have been standing in different lines than you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crankin
That's in the 5-6 airports in which I've flown over the last few years with the scanners.
Nope, we were standing in the same line. I was behind him. He was motioned to stand in front of the scanner and when I was about to step forward, the agent waved over to the other line, to go through the regular thing. They do this all of the time at Logan and it seems rather arbitrary.
It also happened in San Diego.
I find this strange and interesting for U.S. domestic flights, the pat down.
I haven't had a pat down since 9-1-1. Or ever in my life. And I have flown since that time, well over 15 different flights with 6 flights outside of Canada into the U.S. and Europe.
I fly at least once per yr.
Last winter/spring I (and everyone taking flights to the US) was routinely getting patted down or scanned at the Edmonton airport. Seems to have eased off of late, and I have no idea why.
My husband, daughter and I are flying to Oahu in a couple of weeks. I'm terrified of the pat down procedure, but I'm more scared of the radiation from the machines. I've called the TSA to ask for other options and was assured by the guy on the phone that they're not doing this to upset me - thanks - but I had a weeping anxiety attack as I sat there on the phone with him telling me I had no choice in the matter. I could either submit myself to physically dangerous radiation (skin cancer history), or to the psychologically dangerous enhanced pat down (rape and molestation survivor).
I even wrote a message to the White House about it today, but I doubt it will be taken seriously. I wrote to Barbara Boxer a few months ago and got a "thank you for your letter but there's nothing I can do for you" response.
My daughter is only 13. Except for me, the only people to even see her naked in the last ten years are her doctor and the other women changing at the Y pool locker room. She's shy about getting naked in front of people, but if everyone's doing it, it's not as big a deal. To my knowledge, there has been no touching of any kind for her.
So do we have to have an amendment to this no touching rule? Do we have to include random TSA agents?
I'm really hoping we get to just walk through the regular scanners.
What should we wear?
Knot, did the lycra thing work out well for you?
If I wear a dress, they can't check a waistband, but how far up do they go with their hands?
Can I insist on them changing their gloves before patting me down?
Any other suggestions for getting through this with a minimum of psychological trauma?
Thanks,
Roxy
wearing bike stuff does help because it's form-fitting. I really feel for you, but i have no good news because so far whenever they've been challenged, authorities are coming to the sides of TSA (like making that 90 year old woman take off her depends!!!!)
your daughter will be fine. She isn't going to see what they are seeing. And if you're lucky you will all just cruise on through there like I did the last time I flew (October, 2010)
Thanks, Mimi. I do tend to get myself worked up over stuff.
Roxy
If you are ok with your daughter doing the scan, I would just let her. I just had my first one a couple of days ago and it was no big deal. My image was not visible to anyone on the outside (even me) and it's really quick and simple. I was watching their system while waiting for my traveling companion to put on her shoes and they were alternating sending through one male and then one female. It was mostly done without even speaking instructions, it was that quick and simple.
As far as the pat down, I can't help you there. I haven't seen it (or experienced it), but I agree with Mimi - chances are that you'll not be selected anyway, so try not to get too worked up about it. Easier said than done, I know...
So far it's been easy to explain to the TSA who checks ID against boarding pass that I've had skin cancer, want to reduce radiation and not do the back scatter.
Each time I've just been pointed to the line that's using the regular metal detection etc. So far no pat down. I empathise with anyone who would find the pat down upsetting. I would not exactly look forward to it but probably would not ruin my day either. I just wanted to reduce the ammount of radiation I get due to a skin cancer scare I had.
I'm happy to explain about the skin cancer. I'd rather not have an emotional meltdown because of the pat down, though. Especially not when we're heading to Hawaii, and my daughter doesn't know about my history. I'd rather not spend the five-hour flight explaining.
I'd be fine with the regular machines. I hope that's what happens.
Roxy
I don't buy this. I wore a skirt on one leg of my trip and was not singled out. On the return trip, I was wearing pants when they sent me through the backscatter scanner. My boss, who was travelling with me on the return trip WAS wearing a skirt and she was sent through the regular x-ray machines. Exact opposite of what you are suggesting!Quote:
Originally Posted by Muirenn
I'd say you have a reason to get worked up.Quote:
Originally Posted by channlluv
I think that if they are doing the pat down, the person can request that it be done in a private room. So that might be an option to avoid having anyone else see a potential emotional meltdown.
Also I know emotions tend to be unpredictable and difficult to control, but I wonder if there's anything you can do in advance to try to minimize any reaction you might have on the spot. Like repeating to yourself over and over that the screener is doing a job, not trying to victimize anyone, not trying to hurt anyone. More like a doctor doing an exam -- just doing a job.
Sorry if that sounds ridiculous, I'm just wondering if analyzing the situation beforehand might make it less overwhelming in the event that it actually happens. Or if there's some coping mechanism you might have picked up from a therapist or support group that could be applicable.
That doesn't sound at all ridiculous. It actually strikes me as a good plan.
I've not had a lot of luck with therapy, but I do like your suggestion.
Roxy
@channlluv:
The x ray is easily avoided by saying you "opt out" without having to give any explanation whatsoever. Cannot help with the pat down, but I've had it done several times. One time, because I was in a particularly bad mood, I asked to the TSA rep to please change her gloves. She did, a bit annoyed, though (so, we were even... mission accomplished).
I am thinking that asking for a private room may lead to the meltdown: you will have to wait, with tension building up. It might be easier to get the pat down on the spot, just look around the terminal. It does not take long; remember that the TSA person is uncomfortable, too, perhaps more than anyone else. In my last international flight, just last week, I opted out and was not patted, simply waived through the usual metal detector. Go figure.
I am not sure how things work at your airport, but you may be able to pick a line without the option of an image scanner. Denver usually filters into about 6-8 lines for security and you can see in advance that at least 2 will only have a metal detector. They're generally the faster lines, too, so it doesn't look suspicious to pick them :)
In better news, I just made it through my first image scanner in Omaha that I wasn't singled out for a patdown afterwards. Maybe as my back gets stronger, the metal becomes less visible! (Note to self - don't skip pilates tomorrow...)
ps opting for a private room would make it WORSE for me too!
I fly probably once every month or two.
Every time I've told the dude who checks ID (before the screeners) that I've had skin cancer and cannot go through the backscatter, he (or she) has directed me to the line with only a metal detector. I've never been asked to show my surgery scars or any other "proof." (though I'm ready to whip off my shirt if anyone wants to see them) I've offered to go through the "medical needs" line, but I've never been directed there.
I've only been patted-down once.
The pat-down itself was not that bad. Roxy, I've got issues, too. Therapy helped me a lot for things like pat-downs and medical exams. Consider asking your doctor for a prescription for a couple valium pills. I've used them before the kind of things that do set me off, and they work great. Just enough to take the edge off but no sense of inebriation or being spacey. I couldn't tell I'd taken anything, other than the fact that I didn't have a panicked freak-out like I'd expected. People with me can't tell I've taken anything, either.
I like valium. You can get a prescription for only 1 or 2 pills. You don't even have to take them. Just knowing you have them if you need them is a huge relief.
Roxy - In a former life I was a LEO and have done thousands of pat downs; done properly it's very quick and professional. The groin touch (if done) is to check for a "padded feel" so it's just a light bump with the side of the hand. An officer who does dozens of these a day should be VERY smooth and quick.
I actually did a demonstration speech in my college speech class, showing how they're done. People were amazed at how minimal the touching part was.
Well, I woke up practicing what I would say to the pat down agent, just like ny biker suggested, and I feel better about it today.
It just occurred to me that I have no trouble getting naked for my sports therapy massages. Those aren't invasive, though, and my perception of these pat downs is that they're invasive. So I need to change my perception.
This woman is just doing a job. That's all it is. Although, Pax, some of the YouTube videos I watched seemed a little excessive on the rubbing.
Knot, thank you for the suggestion of telling the ID checker about my history of skin cancer. I can for sure do that. And I will check with my doctor about the valium. I've taken it before for dental work. I get wiggy in that chair, too.
Jess, congrats on getting through the machine without setting them off. Is that part of the therapy, getting stronger so the metal rods and such aren't as detectable?
pll, I'm going to ask the agent to change her gloves, too.
What do you guys think about the violation of our Fourth Amendment Rights to no unreasonable searches of our persons? I've been doing a lot of reading the last couple of days online and there's a lot of outrage about it, but it doesn't seem like anyone can do anything about it. I've written one real-mail letter to Barbara Boxer (my Senator), one email to the White House comment line, and one phone call to a sympathetic but unmoving TSA agent through their national contact line.
What has to happen for these machines and enhanced pat downs to go away? Is our collective ego so big that we can't take a lesson on security from Israel?
Is this really what the Nazis did to the German people before they started carting off whole neighborhoods to the internment camps? I read that somewhere. I can't remember where.
Someone on the boards here said something about our own government terrorizing us more than Al Queda ever dreamed. There's a lot of truth in that.
Roxy
No, it's really not. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by channlluv
Oy :o. As the child and grandchild of survivors I feel one shouldn't compare anything with the Holocaust other than other genocide.
I personally feel atrocities like the Sudan, the killing fields of Cambodia, the decimation of Native American peoples are the same. Numbers may be less or even more such as the numbers killed during Stalin's Russia.
Others feel passionately that nothing should ever be compared to the Holocaust and that doing so trivializes the death of over 6 million killed because of who they were.
I'm sure we feel as I do that we should know history so we never forget and never let this happen again. I recommend you start with a reliable source and not some forum. You'll never learn anything on a forum ;) :p I recommend starting:
http://www.ushmm.org/genocide/
... and an important part of that is not forgetting the other 5-7 million people killed by the Nazis ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Trek420
/hijack
Given the numbers of people who travel here in the US I suspect we would need to get to the airport a DAY or two ahead of our flights to get interviewed by the well trained agent to see if we are terrorists.Quote:
Originally Posted by channlluv
And how many well trained agents would there need to be at every airport? How much money are those well trained agents going to get paid yearly? What funds are going to be used to pay them?
Israel as a country is like 1/10 the size of California. How many major airports do they have? Fewer than California I suspect.
What you are suggesting would be a huge undertaking and a massive financial burden on someone - either the travelers or the taxpayers.
Veronica
Roxy: You do not need to tell the TSA folks anything about your health. You can opt out without explanation. At least in O'Hare, there are prominent signs stating you may opt out of the back scatter. I opt out not because of a health issue, but because I do not trust the TSA to competently maintain and handle those machines. In a hospital, they are attended to by specialists and not used nearly as frequently. The TSA won't even allow their personnel to wear the badges that track their exposure to radiation.
It may help to crack a joke if you are apprehensive. I don't find the pat down particularly invasive. The TSA person always tells you what she is about to do, and does it quickly. Not the most comfortable event ever, but a lot less invasive than most doctor/dentist visits.
I don't think opposition to racial profiling - or other profiling based on appearance - has anything to do with "ego."
It does seem to me that people profiled as most likely to be terrorized, not terrorists - in particular elderly white females - are disproportionately selected for extra screening. I could go on about why I think that's the case ...
Are those just the ones that get written up in the news though?
I am sure, as with every profession, there are icky people. But to just assume that they are all icky... That's like saying all teachers are in it for the three months off and because they couldn't a real job. All lawyers are scumbags and ambulance chasers. All IT people are geeks and can't get a date.
We know those generalizations aren't true. Teachers only get two months off. :D
Veronica
It's what I've observed and what I've heard from relatives. Not that writing it up in the news isn't part of the strategy ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Veronica
I don't think individual TSA screeners are "icky," by and large. I think they're underpaid for doing an unpleasant and potentially dangerous job, and on top of that, they've had to fight tooth and nail every step of the way for employment rights that most workers take for granted. But all law enforcement jobs force workers into an "us vs. them" mentality, and they're no exception.
(Part of why I knew I couldn't do criminal law as a career, as much as I loved some of the work. Prosecution or defense, it doesn't matter, seeing only the ugliest side of humanity day after day - and looking hard to find the ugliness in every person you see - just warps people. IMVHO...)
I guess I'm weird because I don't feel that way. I've always felt like law enforcement was on my side. Even when I got pulled aside for extra screening, which annoyed me. But I still felt like they were just doing their job to try to keep every one safe.Quote:
Originally Posted by OakLeaf
Maybe I'm naive because believe in the system. It's not a perfect system and I know there is injustice. But I think it's better than anything else.
And I'm glad that I am in a position where I can look for the goodness in those I work with.
Veronica
I beg to differ. The TSA tries to replace intelligence with mechanical checks and technology. TSA security protocols are entirely reactive: take the check on shoes or the liquids issue... Those backscatter machines were not free (they run at the tune of $100k to $200k per machine, not considering training and maintenance costs, assuming, even hoping, they spend on that at all). Perhaps that money, now lining some company's pockets, should have been used in training of the huge number of staff members the TSA already has in place. Or to train sniffer dogs. Instead of smart profiling, they terrorize people and they have the perpetual and misused threat of adding people to the no-fly list. Does anyone honestly feel safer since the TSA was created, seriously? Air marshals were a good idea -- I think that was an Israeli practice. Taking our shoes off, carrying ZIP lock bags... not so brilliant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Veronica
We are flying to Belize tomorrow morning (out of Charlotte), and I'll be interested to see if we get asked to do the backscatter x-ray. We haven't flown since the new regulations. If I am chosen to have the x-ray, I plan to opt out, as I've had so many x-rays in my life that I don't want any more radiation.
I don't think the pat-down will bother me, as long as it's done quickly and professionally. But it would be great not to have either. We'll see!
I went in to the doctor today for more x-rays, and I chatted with him a bit about the machines. He was pretty certain that the hardware will be picked up by the image scanners regardless (despite the fact that the machines shouldn't be able to see under the skin) and he seemed to think that when I am called for a secondary pat-down, it is because we are dealing with lesser-trained agents who don't recognize the hardware for what it is. His advice was to just show them the scar when they pull me aside :p
(just wanted to note - I will go through wave mm detectors, but not x-ray)
Good luck with the Charlotte airport. I am not fond of that air port. Used to live outside of Charlotte and my husband flew several times for work and my sister flew a couple of times to visit us. Most of the it was more an issue with finding luggage upon getting off the plane because they never seem to know which luggage carousel is going to get what plane's luggage. The last I'd heard that is one of the air ports looking at kicking TSA out in favor of private security due to some issues.