Park police disturbs me

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Originally Posted by Eden

I agree with Sadie Kate - even if they were intentionally flouting the rules there is such a thing as responding with unnecessary force...

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Stepping into the roadway to wave someone to a stop is not responding with unnecessary force.

Wow! We've got a bunch of people ignoring the traffic regulations, and cops only trying to do their jobs. I'm sorry, but there is absolutely no excuse for this behavior. If you think the rules are unreasonable, lobby to have them changed. But in the meantime it is NOT ok to keep breaking them and expect the cops to do nothing. And standing at the side of the road trying to wave a peloton traveling 30+ mph off to the side of the road amounts to nothing.

I've seen this attitude among cyclists so many times before. Club rides blasting through stop signs. Cyclists passing to the front of traffic at stop lights, or even running the light. I once watched a peloton "take the lane" - not just ONE lane, but ALL the lanes, going the WRONG WAY DOWN A ONE WAY STREET during a sponsored ride. When I asked someone I had recognized riding in the pack later that day why they had done it, he said, "Why not? There wasn't any traffic and it was shorter than the marked route on the ride".

They always justify it saying "it doesn't make sense, there was no traffic, it takes more energy to stop a bike and start again than it does a car, a bike's not the same as a car" etc etc etc.

It seems there's a significant contingent of cyclists that want the same rights as motor vehicles, but don't want to have to obey the same rules and laws.

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Originally Posted by ZenSojourner

Stepping into the roadway to wave someone to a stop is not responding with unnecessary force.

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We weren't there to know exactly where this officer stepped, but stepping into the path of oncoming traffic can be dangerous to the traffic and the steppee.

We have no idea if this cop was doing his job properly.

You're new here, ZenS, so I want you to know that none of the people you describe in your last paragraph are posting here. You should do a search on the topic, and give a little more credit to people who have been here longer, and who have fought some of the battles with cars and governments over this issue.

I don't see why the single file rule applies on a 4-lane road. It's probably illegal to pass any vehicle in the same lane if there is a perfectly good, open lane in the same direction just to your left, anyway.

That cop was just an idiot to step out in front of the peloton and cause a wreck. Trying to stop a peloton is kind of like trying to stop a freight train. The lead riders might be able to see what's going on, but the rest of them are going to pile up behind because they aren't given the same opportunity to see and hear what's happening up ahead. Shorter reaction time. If the cop really couldn't predict the consequences of his/her actions, maybe this is not the right field.

The peloton should stop when asked, immediately. Not cooperating with the police only leads to more problems. But, it doesn't appear they were asked in this instance.

Karen

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Originally Posted by ZenSojourner

Stepping into the roadway to wave someone to a stop is not responding with unnecessary force.

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ZenS, in my brief career as a bike rider, I have been stopped by cops about five times. The reasons are special events, movie shoots and the like which require bikers to dismount. This is common where I live. At no time have I ever seen a cop step in front of a bike. They use dramatic, unmistakable hand gestures. To step in front of a bike rider, even a pokey one like me, would be dangerous to the rider, the cop and whoever is behind the cyclist.

Pam

New here or not, I disagree with this attitude that it's ok to break the rules because someone thinks they don't make sense, or that the simple act of stepping into the road constitutes unnecessary force.

A peloton that has been stopped once, and then does the same thing and ends up getting stopped again, THIS time with injuries, certainly is among the contingent I described - cyclists who ignore the rules because they think the rules shouldn't apply to them.

If you don't think that description applies to you, that's fine - I wasn't trying to apply it to you. What I was describing is a mindset among cyclists that we all know exists, and which I personally attribute to the members of this peloton.

The single file comment refers to the bike lane. Law in Georgia states that bikes can ride two abreast.

As far as taking the lane, the law also says to ride as far to the right as is practical and safe. It is my judgement that it is more practical and safe when I'm traveling at 25mph to take the lane when cars have a whole other lane for themselves. I'm sorry you feel that it's wrong for me to do what I feel is the safest option in this situation, but the law, in this case, agrees that I can do what is the safest option for me and the cars sharing the road with me.

I never said it was OK to break the rules. Yes, I question the rule (note again I never said I thought it was fine to break it - you assumed I feel that way because I questioned the rule, but there is a difference) and a resounding YES that I think the officer did something stupid. What he did the to the pack was the equivalent of tackling someone for jay walking.....

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Originally Posted by Pedal Wench

As far as taking the lane, the law also says to ride as far to the right as is practical and safe. It is my judgement that it is more practical and safe when I'm traveling at 25mph to take the lane when cars have a whole other lane for themselves. I'm sorry you feel that it's wrong for me to do what I feel is the safest option in this situation, but the law, in this case, agrees that I can do what is the safest option for me and the cars sharing the road with me.

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When I'm riding at the same speed as the cars, I take the lane also. Matter of fact, there are places in this town where you are required to.

It makes me sad that people in the back got hurt (I still have an injured DH at home, and it is really tough to recover from crashes at that speed. One small decision can be hospital, surgery, PT, and lots of pain!). They could have been new to the ride, and likely had little influence on what how the ride was being led.

You would think that with SO many cyclists at Stone Mountain the police would have some experience with stopping them properly and safely to talk to them. Plus, those hills are insanely fast....I don't think I could stop if I were going down them alone....I mean, they are really fast. I could however stop VERY easily going up those hills:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by ZenSojourner

New here or not, I disagree with this attitude that it's ok to break the rules because someone thinks they don't make sense, or that the simple act of stepping into the road constitutes unnecessary force.

A peloton that has been stopped once, and then does the same thing and ends up getting stopped again, THIS time with injuries, certainly is among the contingent I described - cyclists who ignore the rules because they think the rules shouldn't apply to them.

If you don't think that description applies to you, that's fine - I wasn't trying to apply it to you. What I was describing is a mindset among cyclists that we all know exists, and which I personally attribute to the members of this peloton.

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I rather disagree with the attitude of bending phrases and words as you do. No, we weren't at the scene so we don't know exactly what the officer did, but Shifting stepping *into the path of a peleton* into "the simple act of stepping into the road" makes me realize that what you write is not going to bring me closer to learning something from or about the situation.

Alright... we're getting sidetracked and grumpy here. And we're all speculating on a park and a situation that most of us haven't seen or know very little about.

It seems that the solution to all of this would be to have a couple bikers meet with the head of the stone mountain police force or to have a meeting of a lot of the bikers that bike in the park and invite the police force to come explain to the bikers what exactly they want them to do...

I'm sure the police aren't happy that bikers were injured with their tactic and I'm sure the police officer that stepped into the road had to have feared for his life during it. This does end up being a liability issue for the park - if some of the bikers in the back decided to sue, it would at the very least tie up resources and probably bring bad publicity to the park.

So it should be possible to have that sort of meeting without recriminations or assigning blame and just to make sure that something like this doesn't happen again and ensure that the cyclists are clear on the rules for biking in the park as the police interpret them, and the police are clear on how they should stop a peleton. And do this before things escalate anymore.

I don't see anything in the faq that claims that the riding single file only applies to the bike lane. As far the as the police are concerned, maybe it doesn't. I don't know if that rule would trumph Georgia law or not on riding as far right as prudent or riding two abreast... But obviously, they can set rules in parks... It's all very well for people to say "I feel that it's safer or it's my judgement" and the reality in situations like this.... That doesn't matter, it's what the judgement of the police and the park authorities is on the matter, especially when they don't have to allow you to have access to the park and especially if they're going to continue tactics like those to get people to stop. You may be able to challenge all of that stuff with a law suit, but I think all of that would come down to how bike friendly a judge was.

OK, ok. I'm a cop, so I'm qualified to comment...and true, we don't know EXACTLY what happened, where and how the cop decided to stop the cyclists FOR SURE. And I am commenting on what I know to be true, but I am telling you that there are cops out there who do things that I shake my head at and say "WHY? WHY?"
But, as any cop that has made more than one traffic stop or has directed traffic for more than, oh, a minute, will tell you, executing traffic stops is THE most dangerous thing we do. As such, we are VERY aware of the safety of the operator we are trying to stop, and the safety of ourselves. I'm not saying there aren't cops who do it unsafely (for either party) but because we work traffic regularly, and are bound by policy and regulations on HOW to do it, we generally try to keep safety at the forefront when executing a stop. Sometimes a quick stop can't be helped, and I have closed my eyes and hoped that traffic wasn't going to hit me as I tried to keep fast moving vehicles from plowing into an accident scene just over a hill or around a curve.
I will also tell you that cyclists, especially a group, are hard to stop. No rearview mirror, and they are sometimes unaware that they CAN be stopped, so unlike cars, aren't hyper-aware of the presence of a cop.
I ride the same streets that I patrol, and I am frustrated by the inconsiderate behavior of motorists. I am also a motorist who is frustrated by cyclists who are inconsiderate or do not think that the traffic laws apply to them.
If you are on a bike, regardless of riding singly or in a group, you are obligated to obey traffic laws. You CAN and SHOULD take the lane when appropriate so as to make motorists aware of where you are and what you are getting ready to do, but I also know that groups, sometimes frustrated by motorists, occupy the lane to force traffic to wait or not pass legally (short passing lanes or whatever). Whether riding in a group or alone, you may come across an accident around the turn, or you may be asked to stop by a cop, sometimes suddenly (accident or emergency ahead). That is part of the deal in using the road, the park trail, or sidewalks in a city.
Off soapbox.

Note that the original poster has not returned to the thread to comment since the first few messages.

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Originally Posted by kenyonchris

OK, ok. I'm a cop, so I'm qualified to comment...and true, we don't know EXACTLY what happened, where and how the cop decided to stop the cyclists FOR SURE. And I am commenting on what I know to be true, but I am telling you that there are cops out there who do things that I shake my head at and say "WHY? WHY?"
But, as any cop that has made more than one traffic stop or has directed traffic for more than, oh, a minute, will tell you, executing traffic stops is THE most dangerous thing we do. As such, we are VERY aware of the safety of the operator we are trying to stop, and the safety of ourselves. I'm not saying there aren't cops who do it unsafely (for either party) but because we work traffic regularly, and are bound by policy and regulations on HOW to do it, we generally try to keep safety at the forefront when executing a stop. Sometimes a quick stop can't be helped, and I have closed my eyes and hoped that traffic wasn't going to hit me as I tried to keep fast moving vehicles from plowing into an accident scene just over a hill or around a curve.
I will also tell you that cyclists, especially a group, are hard to stop. No rearview mirror, and they are sometimes unaware that they CAN be stopped, so unlike cars, aren't hyper-aware of the presence of a cop.
I ride the same streets that I patrol, and I am frustrated by the inconsiderate behavior of motorists. I am also a motorist who is frustrated by cyclists who are inconsiderate or do not think that the traffic laws apply to them.
If you are on a bike, regardless of riding singly or in a group, you are obligated to obey traffic laws. You CAN and SHOULD take the lane when appropriate so as to make motorists aware of where you are and what you are getting ready to do, but I also know that groups, sometimes frustrated by motorists, occupy the lane to force traffic to wait or not pass legally (short passing lanes or whatever). Whether riding in a group or alone, you may come across an accident around the turn, or you may be asked to stop by a cop, sometimes suddenly (accident or emergency ahead). That is part of the deal in using the road, the park trail, or sidewalks in a city.
Off soapbox.

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Thank you, Chris. I appreciate getting a post from a bicycle cop. Very valuable perspective.

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Originally Posted by Grog

Note that the original poster has not returned to the thread to comment since the first few messages.

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that's pretty typical when some posts hoping for sympathy but then the majority doesn't agree with them. (been there done that, hid out for a while afterwards....)