Are you as appalled as I am?

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Originally Posted by Mr. Silver

So, the problem is not our patronage, but the conditions. This is something we can agree on.

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The two are closely linked. The widespread conditions would certainly not exist on such a grand scale if we were not eagerly buying up the unimaginably vast quantities of product as fast as they can produce them. Our abundant money and grotesquely engorged level of insatiable consumerism is fueling and perpetuating the system just as as it is. The rich keep getting richer and more powerful on the backs of the poor, and the poor keep getting poorer and more powerless.

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But the comparison to slavery is loose at best when you compare employing indigenous people to enslaving kidnapped people.

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Not so loose a comparison as one might think. Just as coal miners were virtually permanent indentured servants before labor unions came into being, who really had no choice but to work under severe and unsafe conditions until they sickened and died, the system being carefully arranged so that they would never be able to pay off their debts to the bosses, so it is that these people (including, not so accidentally, actual prisoners) laboring under slave-like and dangerous conditions are all virtual prisoners of this modern unjust and inhumane system. They may not be kidnapped people (no need to kidnap them from other countries since the available labor force was there already), but are nonetheless no better off than permanent indentured servants, who in order to survive have little choice but to labor their entire lives from childhood to old age under abominable conditions. The system is laid out in such a way as to ensure they can never advance, get out of debt, or improve their situation in life, or even hope to provide their children with a life any less hopeless than their own.

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One half to two thirds of all immigrants to Colonial America arrived as indentured servants. At times, as many as 75% of the population of some colonies were under terms of indenture. Even on the frontier, according to the 1790 U.S. Census, 6% of the Kentucky population was indentured.
This was a labor system, not a system of apprenticeship. (Galenson, 6) The historic basis for indenture grew out of English agricultural servitude and began because of labor shortages in England and in the colonies. It developed at a time when England had a great number of people being displaced from farming. This led to an early growth of the indentured labor system.
The importation of white servants under contracts known as indentures proved more profitable as a short-term labor source than enslaving Indians or using free labor. Eventually, the final attempt to ease labor shortages was enslavement of Africans. Wherever you find slavery, you first find indentures.

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I'm not going to get into the argument, but anyone who thinks that the people producing cheap goods for america are "better off" should check out this film: http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...94596195828118

And be sure to watch this award winning documentary on the subject as well:
http://www.freespeech.org/videodb/in...10826&browse=1

oh give me a break. I am embarrassed that people in China are melting the lead from our used TV monitors over a portable burner in their lap and their kids are out playing in the effluent. I am embarrassed that children are working in the fields to produce OUR coffee and OUR chocolate. I have read about the work conditions for factory workers making clothing for our name brand stores. Major corporations are getting rich on this slavery, yes, it's slavery. And no, I don't think they are better off. In a rush to make it rich, the rainforests are being denuded with slash burning and get rich quick agriculture which leaves the indigenous people no choice but to go into the city and take the sh*t jobs offered to them.
No, I don't think we and our consumer society are doing the people in poorer countries any great favors.

Corporate America and it's consumers aren't' 100% bad: Starbucks is doubling its purchases of fair trade coffee to some 40 millions pounds of organic, fair trade cofee in 2009.
http://sustainablog.org/2008/10/29/s...offee-in-2009/

now, I don't shop Starbucks for other reasons, but I thought this was hopeful.

there are some positives, absolutely, but human nature has a tenet that I rarely see NOT followed. Power corrupts. Money Corrupts. If I can use those ignorant savages, I'm going to. And I'll even give them little tidbits so they think they're doing good. And then I'll go home and eat cake.

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Originally Posted by Biciclista

No, I don't think we and our consumer society are doing the people in poorer countries any great favors.

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I don't doubt that the bad stuff is true, but it's legitimate to question what people would do without the work. Are other options worse, or nonexistent? I have no idea of the answer, but I do wonder when this topic comes up.

Pam

I don't think anyone is suggesting that jobs for those people would just go away... I doubt this country even has the workforce or the infrastructure to start manufacturing everything we buy ourselves..... Just think about clothing and shoes. If we relied only on very few brands that are still produced here, most of us would have to sew our own or go naked and barefoot.

It's not like the big corporations cannot afford to treat and pay their workers better... Nike, Walmart, Target, have profits in the billions. They could double the amount they pay and it would be a teensy percentage of what they make.

Biciclista, I'm sorry that you are embarassed by these things. But, for me, I accept that there are some things that I simply can't control. I believe that China is China's problem...I didn't choose to send that TV to China, someone in China chose to buy that TV and do something with it. It's not that we shouldn't care about these situations elsewhere, but I choose to devote my attention and energy to things that I can observe first hand (through direct interaction, not distant observation) and impact today in my own backyard.

This is a complicated topic. I also think that in the end, we, as individuals, are not really going to have an influence on how China treats its workers...
I try to buy local, especially with food. I am driving much less than ever, only filling my car up once every two weeks or so. I will never be doing my grocery shopping by bike, but I have changed my life style. I buy clothes based on if they fit; given my shortness, I am limited to 2-3 brands. Frankly, I don't think about anything else except that.
I have personal experience with part of this topic. My family owned a shoe factory in NH when I was growing up. Eventually, because of the cheap labor in Asia, it went out of business. Since then, my parents had to move to 3 different states, my dad was unemployed a lot, and my brother, who is 11 years younger than me, got quite a different life style than I did. It wasn't good for my family at all, but after all of these years, I don't really think about it. I decided to work hard and get a good education, and in the end I was able to give my kids pretty much the same type of life I had growing up.
I have a lot of other things I could say on this topic, but I won't.

Hey, now we know why there are still many who still want to immigrate to North America --despite China's growing economy and Communists loosening up on economic privatization.


But then they get here and some end up in sweat shops. Yea, well several of my cousins who immigrated to Toronto in 1980's, did factory clothing piecework ..in their homes at times. I would drop over to visit and find their work/set-up. But now the garmet industry in Toronto and elsewhere in Canada, has shifted to China.

No wonder why their children go gangbusters at university and try to scale the professional worlds here.

A person sees too much.

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Originally Posted by shootingstar

But now the garmet industry in Toronto and elsewhere in Canada, has shifted to China.

No wonder why their children go gangbusters at university and try to scale the professional worlds here.

A person sees too much.

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well said.

I think they should have ads for some sexy, versatile bicycles! :D

I'm not at all appalled. Many, many years ago my Dad (who was a Jaguar mechanic, now retired) needed a new car and after much research he picked out a Toyota Celica, but they didn't buy right away. My mom surprised him with it for Christmas. It wasn't a gift from a rich wife to her rich husband on a fluke. It was a planned purchase that she made a little early. When someone gets a car for Christmas there may be backstory that you don't know, so don't be so quick to judge.

Two additional points:

Not everyone is hurting this year. I haven't had a job since July, so I can't say we're loaded right now, but I have plenty of friends that really haven't been affected by what's going on. They own their homes and aren't trying to sell, they have a long way to retirement and thus aren't concerned about the market dip, and they have stable jobs in industries that aren't under a huge amount of pressure right now.

There are plenty of people in the auto industry that are being laid off. If I go out and buy a car, and others do too, I may save quite a few people their jobs this year. That's a heck of a lot better than volunteering in a soup kitchen.

I have for years found the ads stupid but funny. I can't afford to buy a car for anyone, never got a drool worthy car as a gift either. The only one I got as a gift was a 1986 Cutlass on my 16th Birthday in 1997. Most people made fun of it but had no miles and got me around. So yeah, for a lower middle class child I find those commercials the stupidest thing on the planet because in my world cars aren't and will never be gifts. At least not the type they advertise.

I absolutely hate the diamond commercials. For years it was enough to set off a huge rant in my house. My parents were married 27 years before my mom got a diamond. Even then it was "tiny" by these ads standards. I don't think my dad loves her less than my husband loves me just because my husband gave me a diamond engagement ring. My husband's mom had one and his parents got divorced, so I find those ads laughable at best.

Flur- Good point, in my area the economy is still relatively stable. We aren't seeing nearly as much, just tightening the purse strings because it makes sense.