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And it costs more and takes longer too! :D And as I type this my LBS is rebuilding my MTB which has 8 speed...after powdercoating the frame.Quote:
Originally Posted by SadieKate
Log off and get her on the bike that fits her, you can even change frame color later on.
FYI, both my bikes are a 9 spd ultegra/XT mix by choice. I have no problem finding 9 spd replacement parts. I chose 9 spd so I can mix road and mountain parts, to let me use a compact double in front, with mountain gearing in back for mountains. Heck, you can still find 5 spd parts. Try someone like Harris Cyclery.
You are also ignoring a critical fit factor by focussing only on top tube length and not seat tube angle, both of which effect reach.
This is how the seat tube angle stuff works. All you have to understand is that every 1 degree increase in seat tube angle pushes the seat tube closer to the bars, so while this can be used to reduce the top tube length, it doesn't change the reach, because the saddle then needs to go back 1 cm to get the same KOP position. So in other words, the REACH ON the following bikes are identical:
BIKE STA TT
1 73 52
2 74 51
3 75 50
4 76 49
The problem is that someone might purchase bike 4, thinking it has the shortest top tube, without realizing that it is identical to the other choices. For ME, the problem with too steep a seat tube is that even with the saddle all the way back on the rails, my knee is too far forward of the pedal axle. So, as she test rides bikes, note both the seat tube angle and top tube length (assuming she has adequate clearance over the top tube and can get the bars to the desired height easily). Once you know her ideal geometry, its easier to shop around on ebay. I got a never been built terry isis frame that sold new as a complete bike for $2000 for only $100 on ebay, and then just swapped all the relatively new parts from an older rusting bike to make a helluva sweet ride. This doesn't have to be expensive, but you do need to know what frame geometry you are looking for.
[QUOTE=Triskeliongirl;222879]
This is how the seat tube angle stuff works. All you have to understand is that every 1 degree increase in seat tube angle pushes the seat tube closer to the bars, so while this can be used to reduce the top tube length, it doesn't change the reach, because the saddle then needs to go back 1 cm to get the same KOP position. So in other words, the REACH ON the following bikes are identical:
BIKE STA TT
1 73 52
2 74 51
3 75 50
4 76 49
QUOTE]
Keep in mind every individual is different. With a 74.5 or 75 sta my saddles are forward because I have a short femur. My custom frame has a 74.5 sta and a zero degree seatpost and my saddle is forward to accomodate the KOPS position. I have a mtn bike with a 72.5 sta and I feel like I'm riding a recumbent because my knee angle is so far off center.
Ideally, I could use a sta of 76 degrees.
Of course, but not sure if you are arguing or not that the combination of sta and tt length determines reach. My point is that you cannot only look at TT length when comparing 2 bikes. I agree with you that the range of acceptable sta's is also highly individual. I need something very slack (ideally 72) while clearly you need something very steep (ideally 76), just to be able to get KOPs to work with the available saddles and seatposts. You have to look at all of these factors to determine if a frame is or isn't going to work. FYI, maybe Kathi could try one of those forward seatposts they sell for time trial bikes for her mtn bike with the slack sta http://www.gottaridebikes.com/Mercha...roduct_Count=1Quote:
Originally Posted by Kathi
A cassette might have been a poor example but 10 speed stuff is much more readily available than 9 speed or 8 speed. And as the years go by it will be harder and harder to come by 9 speed parts.Quote:
Originally Posted by SadieKate
I've been through this bike newbie phase myself and have learned that once you start riding you'll want to upgrade to something beyond sora/tiagra/mirage/xenon. I would like to have something mid level to begin with that I can keep for a long time. I guess it's a gamble for me since I don't know if she'll stick with it but it's a gamble I'm willing to take.
We're heading out to a local trek dealer this afternoon to check out their inventory so hopefully they'll have something that fits her.
KOP isn't the only way to fit a bike.
No, KOPS is not the only way but is very important. Your body tells you when something is not right with the fit, it seeks it's natural position. Before I had a good fitting done my saddles were centered and I had seat posts with setbacks. I couldn't figure out why but I intuitively kept moving forward. I had more power but riding on the nose was very uncomfortable. Because my seat posts had setbacks, the saddles hurt because I was moving to far forward so I tipped the saddles down, it was the only way I could ride the bikes comfortably. No one bothered to look at the position of my knees. I was simply to far from the center of the bike.Quote:
Originally Posted by skunk
I have been riding since 1981 when there were no bikes for small women, have suffered on improperly fitting bikes and gave up on the shops and tried to fit myself. I figured out that I needed a steeper sta but couldn't figure out the position of the saddle and that I needed a zero degree seat post. I also didn't realize that my handlebars were place 4 cm to low, that took a professional bike fitter to tell me.
Since I've been riding I've had 3 mtn bikes and 5 road bikes. Of the 8 bikes 1 mtn bike (my Titus) and 1 road bike (custom) fits well. Both bikes were fitted by knowledgeable fitters.
Please start your friend off with a well fitting bike. It's more important than components or frame material. If you do it right the first time the bike will last her a long time. And it's easier and cheaper than trying to make an ill-fitting bike fit.
Thanks, but I have a good mtn bike that fits. I still have the Voodoo but it is mostly ridden to the store (1mile) and by visitors.Quote:
Originally Posted by Triskeliongirl
By KOPS I mean getting whatever the optimum knee over pedal position is for the rider right. In my case I actually prefer it if my knee is 1 cm behind the pedal axle. But, my points were that you need to consider reach as a comb. of STA and TT length, and also, as reiterated by Kathi, you need to be sure the STA will allow whatever the riders appropriate KOP position is to be established. Small women are more sensitive to all this crap, cuz manufacturers mess more with frame angles on smaller sized bikes so they can outfit the bike with 700cc wheels. If the bike doesn't fit, your GF will not like cylcing, its as simple as that.
Keith Bontrager wrote a pretty good article busting the KOPS myth.
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/kops.html
Alrighty then, I guess you've won because that's just the end of that concept :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by skunk
No system really other than a great bike shop and club, I'm just working on my 5th custom bike.
Oh, girls, don't waste your energy. He knows what he knows and it's all about him, not his girlfriend.
Andy Pruitt uses KOPS, but what would he know.
Did you gals even read the article? KOPS is a good place to start but it doesn't work for everyone. In my opinion proper weight distribution is more important than having your knee over the spindle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trek420
Of course we know KOPS is only a place to start, just like we know WSD isn't for all women.Quote:
Originally Posted by skunk
skunk, why are you here? You have yet to acknowledge anything anyone has offered. You refuse to tell us where you live so we can provide shop recommendations. It pretty much sounds like you just want to throw your weight around and have us be your personal shoppers.
We're trying to help you be a hero to your girlfriend which means getting her involved in the decision, but you don't discuss anything anyone has offered. You just refute without the back-up.
Just a guess, but I think we know women better than you do. There's an awful lot of knowledge on this forum if you'd choose to be receptive.
In post #34 I said I live in Southern California.Quote:
Originally Posted by SadieKate
I have checked out every bike that has been mentioned in this thread. Locating a dealer for some of these brands on the other hand will take some time. So before I do that I can't really say anything about them.
I went to another local shop today to and to my surprise it doesn't stock any womens bikes and only had one trek 1000 that was slightly too big for her.
My goal is still to buy a frame unless I come across a great deal on a complete bike. I have a shop in Arizona looking into getting me a low end trek frame so I should hear back from them soon.