well they took down the floydlandis.com website!!! Talk about supporting your own! That's terrible.
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well they took down the floydlandis.com website!!! Talk about supporting your own! That's terrible.
Actually, it looks like it crashed. When I tried to get to it earlier this morning and got a time out, I assumed that tons of people were probably trying to get there and post comments. The message that comes up now when you go to the site seems to verify that.
The message last night was "this website is down (or closed, I can't remember) until further notice" It wasn't a server message or a network timeout.
I agree to a point here - though I don't think that its a thought out conspiracy. Unfortunately some of the techinicians who do the testing seem to be of the mind that all athletes cheat. One rider mentioned that during one of the times they had to contribute a sample the technican remarked something like "we'll get you all in the end". Some of the testing methods that are used (the ones used for EPO and blood transfusions come to mind) have some subjective componants to them. When you combine a person who is looking for a positive with a test that requires some discrimination on the part of the techinician I think that you definitely get a higher possibility of a result that is unclear being read as positive. People will see what they want to see. I don't know if this has any bearing on Floyd's case, though it does seem that there may be many explanations that do not point to willful taking of steriods on his part. Let's just hope that all avenues are explored before he is condemned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalidurga
It seems like if WADA and the UCI are going to come down so hard on riders they really ought to have reliable proof of wrongdoing *before* they sanction anyone. Its a real shame that Vinokurov did not get to ride in the TDF, and it will be even more of a shame if Basso and Ullrich are ultimately cleared too. The evidence that has been presented to the public is thin at best and they are so bad at keeping other things quiet that it seems implausible that if they had hard proof - say a bag of Ullrichs blood or something - they would be able to keep it out of the press. Look at how they handle test results. They cannnot even keep A test results quiet. Even if nothing comes of the B test for Floyd his reputation has take a hit and its unfair.
I can understand the sports orgainization wanting to keep riders safe by banning substances that can endanger their health. As far as the argument that keeping sports drug free levels the playing field I don't buy it. The playing field is never level - some people just have more natural gifts than others, and there are plenty of legal ways of enhancing ones performance through training and equipment and things like wind tunnel testing that everyone may not be able to afford.
I guess in the end I'm not sure exactly what should be done - cycling takes a big hit because they pay attention to cheats and test more than any other sport. I'm sure that other sports have just as big, if not a bigger incidence of players taking performance enhancers, but they pretty much turn a blind eye to it. (Operation Puerto turned up lots of other people from other sports too, but we aren't hearing anything about a bunch of soccer players being dismissed are we)
This morning I was watching TV with my breakfast. The show I was watching, I think The Today Show, had an interview with Greg LeMond. I must say, it was really depressing. He was not optimistic at all. He basically said the likelyhood of a false positive is extremely rare and it doesn't look good. He said he wished him the best, but he didn't think the next test would come back clean. He also said he hoped Landis would just come clean when it came back positive and admit to the doping instead of still claiming he didn't use. It was sad. I definitely expected him to be much more optimistic. If the only thing I heard was his interview, I would basically think there is no chance that Landis wasn't doping.
It was sad. He said he knew the family, knew landis and thought he was a great guy, but he was not positive at all about the situation.
Well, Greg Lemond is no more an expert on medical tests than anyone else!
The thing with Floyd is he HAS been taking meds.. and where he should come out clean is when the Dr's prove that this irregularity is something that happens when you are taking these medications.
And Mercury is retrograde!
I have heard many interviews, bios on Greg Lemond. I think he had a hugh amount of talent and did so much for American cycling, but I think he's just bitter. All he can talk about is how if he hadn't been shot that he could have won 6 or 7 or MORE TdFs. He wants Lance so badly to be found guilty of doping so he can be the the Alpha Male Cyclist. It's almost like he wants every winner to be found guilty of doping so he can put himself on a pedestal - to be the only pure champion. I'm getting sick of him.
As far as the labs go...seems to me they're determined to attack every rider until they get a French champion...they seem desperate to have one of their own win the Tour.
I hope Floyd is cleared, but only if he truly is clean. But even then his win will always be tainted. Seems to me a good ol' fashioned witch-hunt is goin' on.
PS: Any real athlete knows you can have a terrible day one day and be at your best the next.
Quote:
Originally Posted by velogirl
He's probably on T4, I would imagine.
It was performance enhancing for me in that I stopped being exhausted all the time. But I don't necessarily think it made me a better cyclist. It's more like fixing something that's broken than enhancing performance, I guess.
Landis has not only been fired, but if you read the news today, due to the the past doping situations with Tyler Hamilton and 3 other riders, plus the recent especulations of Botero and another Phonak rider who were in the group of riders frequently visiting the Spaniard doctor, they have decided not to support cycling anymore, it is too embarrasing for them. Manzano the rider who spoke his mind about doping said and Merckz also said it sometime ago, that if you wanted just to finish the Tour you could go with no dope but those wanting to be in the top 15 will only make it with it. We have to let our kids know this, because if they are wanting to go professional some day they have to be aware of the consequences of doping to their health. These guys when they step into their 40's and 50's don't even have a sex life anymore !
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomgrrrl
Welcome to the forum, restrec. How about introducing yourself on the thread "Getting to Know You"? We're always snoopy about new people.
My comment was based on thisQuote:
Originally Posted by oroight
Joseba Beloki, Isidro Nozal, Sergio Paulinho, Allan Davis and Alberto Contador have all received a written document officially clearing them of any links to the ongoing "Operación Puerto," the Spanish newspaper El Diario Vasco reported Wednesday.
The five riders received a legal document signed by Manuel Sánchez Martín, secretary for the Spanish court heading up the "Operación Puerto" investigation, stating, "there are not any type of charges against them nor have there been adopted any type of legal action against them."
As they were cleared of any links to Puerto I would assume that means there is no evidence that they did blood dope, even if it is not illegal in Spain, therefore no reason to sanction them. It could be a quirk of the translation and the statement certainly did not go into much depth, so it is possible that they are still under suspicion by WADA and the UCI. In any case its still ashame that Vinokurov had to miss the tour as he was never implicated in any wrong doing.
Landis has not been fired. It is part of the WADA code of ethics (signed by teams and individual riders) that if a rider is under investigation he doesn't race during the interim and the team will suspend the rider. This isn't being fired.Quote:
Originally Posted by restrec
Phonak had planned to pull out their title sponsorship as early as January (that's when I heard it from Floyd himself at a training camp in CA). iShares will be the new title sponsor of the team and Phonak will be a secondary sponsor.
It's a shame, in a country where we "should" be innocent until proven guilty, that the public and the media condemn (how do you spell that?) a rider before there is sufficient evidence or due process has been served. How can we be so judgemental? Give the guy a chance, will you? Rumors and misinformation do nothing to help the integrity of this sport.
Yes, doping is a problem in pro cycling. And every junior who wants to pursue the sport professionally quickly learns that, especially if they race in Europe. But there are pro racers who race clean and we should hold them up as an example to our aspiring athletes.
Thank you Velogirl! ... for speaking my mind!!! We didn't see any evidence yet regarding the Test B, but somehow people jump to conclusions right away. I know it's everybody's personal opinion, but maybe if you imagined yourself in his shoes or other riders' shoes then you would too want a benefit of a doubt. We all know that pro cycling is corrupted with doping and other issues but we shouldn't forget that puting everybody under one standard doesn't do any good. To me, until he is proven guilty and emptied his last resorts of innosence proof - he is not guilty!!!
I'm wondering....Is it possible at all that TEST B could be tampered with??
Okay, so I've never been drug tested, but I managed a pro team last season in the US. We were lucky enough to win the doping lottery a few times during the season. You see, in the US, not only are the winners tested, but there are a number of random tests as well (ie picking a number out of a hat).Quote:
Originally Posted by Denise223
Because most of our racers are new to the pro scene, I accompanied them to the testing trailer. Here's what happens:
You sit outside in the sun in your wet shorts (after just racing in the sun), and the USADA folks give you gatorade until you can finally pee. Sometimes this takes hours. I think it might be faster if they gave you coffee or beer, but apparently that would skew the ph (see below).
Once you're good to go, you go inside the trailer with a USADA rep and the rep. explains the procedure to you. The rep. gives you some literature about USADA and you sign an acknowledgement. You pick a box from a handful of identical boxes sitting on the table. You then open the box yourself and inside are two glass cups (sealed) and a test strip. The rep. never touches the box or the cups or the test strip.
Then, you and the rep. go into the bathroom and she watches you pee into both cups. Imagine if you get a bit of performance anxiety -- this can be a long process. After you pee in the cups, you seal them again and the rep. gives you a label to put on them (with information about you, the race, the date, etc).
Then, you go sit at the table again and the rep. asks you to open the cups and administer the test strip to see if the samples will be valid (has to do with the ph level or something). Anyways, you seal the cups (sample A and sample B), put them back in the box, the box gets sealed and then you finally get to go home.
So, it would appear, on the surface, that there's very little margin for error in this process, at least from a collection pov. However, I have no idea what happens during the testing/analysis phase.
And, the crazy thing about the T/E test that was in question for Floyd is that there apparently are HUGE concerns about whether or not this test is even valid.
BTW, I'm sure there's lots of info on the WADA and USADA websites where you can learn more.
In lots of sports alcohol is a banned substance so drinking beer would not be such a great plan. Steve Redgrave (Olympic rower) describes being given beer to drink during a dope test in his biography. By the time he actually needed to pee he was so drunk that he was falling all over the place and had to be sent to bed!Quote:
Originally Posted by velogirl
Bron
Apparently Floyd did a press conference this afternoon on the issue.
He's also going to talk about it on Larry King tonight at 9 pm ET: CNN: Larry King Live
I'll say one thing about him, he's not hiding or holding back.!! :D
Oh, and I forgot. You also have to fill out a butt-load of paperwork about your health and meds. I always had my racers bring a specific list of all their meds (including vitamins and herbals) along with doses and when they took them and I kept a copy as well. Post-race, when you're fatigued and can't think straight, it's hard to remember all this information on the top of your head. If you use a banned substance you can get a therapeutic exemption. However, you need to know what you're putting in your body. It's too late, after the results come back, to say "oh yeah, I was using a steroid inhaler."
Greg Lemond is way too fast to accuse others of doping. Don't forget there has been doping in pro cycling for many years even when Lemond was racing. Also, remember that he probably shouldn't have been able to win the tour since his body is full of shotgun pellets due to being shot I think it was maybe a year or two before he won the Tour!
I don't condone doping but the tour has gotten so competitive, no one who is not doping can have a chance in heck to win! Back in the day, they used to have what you would call a rest day where they would go slower and take it easy - these days, the tours are always "the fastest ever" etc. Something has to give and it is the rider's bodies if they don't dope!
if floyd was tested at other parts of the stage while in yellow, and didn't test positive, why did this one pop positive? were the other tests they were doing trying to test for something else or the same thing?
Velogirl:
Thanks for all of the information!
I know, that's what I can't understand :confused: !Quote:
Originally posted by velogirlAnd, the crazy thing about the T/E test that was in question for Floyd is that there apparently are HUGE concerns about whether or not this test is even valid.
I am looking forward to seeing Floyd on Jay Leno tonight -- he was scheduled to appear as of this past Tuesday.
Have a great day!
Denise
This is a good report:
http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/?pg=fullstory&id=4223
Is anyone besides me bothered by the argument that "they all do it, so he's guilty"...?
It seems to me that besides a presumption of guilt before all the evidence is in, it is impossible to mount a defense against a blanket, sweeping statement like this. If you believe this, then no amount of "proving a negative" will change your mind. Seems a little unfair to me...
Where, exactly, is the *proof* that they all do it? I think it is one thing to suspect that there is a lot of doping in cycling--some has even been demonstrated. However, I could just as easily say that all Texans are arrogant (I'm a Texan, so that's why I'm using this example:) )...Just saying it isn't actual "proof" of anything except someone's opinion and suspicions--no amount of evidence to the contrary would change that person's mind...
IMHO.
I don't think I'd wait for the b sample test - I'd have the IRNS test done immediately.
I believe in Floyd. Until he says "Yes, I knowingly took a banned substance" I will continue to believe in him.
Ok, am i the only one who wants to smack Lemond upside the head??!!
It seems that since he retired everyone has turned into a doper??!!
UGH! :mad:
he just irritates the poop out of me!!
Nope, you're are not alone. I pretty much listen (or don't listen) to Lemond with a grain of salt.
Not at all. I never really heard many of his interviews before the TdF this year. Everytime OLN did one of their segments I was increasingly annoyed. I started to hear the adult in Peanuts when he was talking "Wahh, wahh, wahh..."Quote:
Originally Posted by Running Mommy
Restrec, Phonak was pulling out of sponsorship after this TDF. That's what the announcers were saying on OLN when Landis was on the victory podium when he was presented with the yellow jersey. Ishares was going to take over, but that's not for sure. Teams change sponsorships all the time.....just look at how Postal became Discovery, etc. :)...I'm sure this controversy has added to the muddle, but Phonak was out BEFORE this happened (unless my TIVO is lying to me). Perhaps i-ishares is now out and the team will regroup or riders will go elsewhere....I'm sure the scandal doesn't help solidify something already tenuous....Quote:
Originally Posted by restrec
Also, I have a young daughter and agree that our children should be educated about the perils of drug use, etc....but I also try to instill in my daughter the idea that it's best to be sensitive to others and to hear people out, to try to give them the benefit of the doubt when faced with conflicting information....life can be complicated and the answers don't often come in black or white.....
RM, I'd be happy to hold him down while you smack him. He's always the first to turn on someone, take Lance for instance. Any time you see him being interviewed, he's accusing someone of doping. I don't like him at all.
Why does he always pick on the Americans? Did he rail against Ullrich, et.al., when they were tossed?
He needs to take that chip off of his shoulder. He is making the sport look worse...if that is possible right now. Maybe it's the lead in his body?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanci
Ah yes... Nanci, RM, Sadie, Aggie, Dogmama...
Interesting - I am just reading "Chasing Lance" at the moment and just last night read about how LeMond was great mates with Lance and then suddenly turned (with something not unlike the speed of a viper) and started spreading poison...
I'll stand in line with a paddle - don't wanna smack him with my hands!
As always, Lemond has truly shown himself.... an egotisical **** the only reason that I can see that he turns on Americans is because he is the one that wants to be remembered...
I think the absolute best way to get back at him is NOT to buy any of his products.... if he can't support our US athletes any better than he has... than I can't justify buying any Lemond products....
Even D**k Pound of WADA says that they (WADA) have formally suggested to the ICU that the reason they have so many positive tests is a problem in their policies, methodology or practice. Despite that cycling is definitely one of the problematic sports for doping anyway.
(Got that off Eurosport.com)
I was watching CNN this morning, in their little blurb they say quite a few people are rallying around Floyd, a number of them in the medical community.
Found this article posted on RBR:
MissingSaddle
There is no way they can say what they have said based on the test they have.
It just blows my mind. What a crock.
Their testing methods and quality controls are essentially worthless - and therefore so is their credibility.