Me too!Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueberry
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Me too!Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueberry
After reading the last series of comments, I thought I would at least ask. I have bunions on both feet. Since I have those, it has made me hesitant about wearing these shoes, let alone run in them.
Does anyone else have anything like this and using the VFF's? I used to walk around my house as a kid without shoes but have not since becoming an adult. My calves will probably kill me when I first start out.
Comments? Concerns?
Thank you,
Red Rock
I am curious about this too. I used to have bunions on both my feet. I had a bilateral bunionectomy. Now I have two screws in each foot. I'm really hesitant to try barefoot running . . . And maybe I don't need to, I haven't suffered running injuries in the past other than a cyst during my marathon training that went away after a week off. And last summer I got plantar fasciitis, but that was after a long Adventure Race.Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Rock
Barefoot running for people with bunions???
Ok, so I just checked the bottom of my right foot. I do have some thick skin under the big toe and pinky, just like you said I would. But I only found a very tiny spot of thick skin (I'm talking like the size of a rice grain) under the 2nd toe...and nothing under the rest. I do religiously moisturize my feet, though...sometimes 2-3x per day...so perhaps that is why I'm not finding a lot of calloused skin. Even under the big & pinky toes, what thick skin there is...it isn't very much at all. I really had to feel around to find it.Quote:
Originally Posted by KnottedYet
So...based on this, does this still mean that I might have a dropped met head? Or could this possibly be something entirely different...like a neuroma, perhaps? Although I don't feel a lump or anything unusual underneath or between my 3rd & 4th toes...which are the 2 affected toes. My former podiatrist (he moved to another state) also indicated that he did not feel anything unusual and didn't think it was a neuroma...yet he still suggested using a metatarsal pad in my shoes (which I've been doing). So I'm very confused and frustrated....
Linda
I don't do much running and my feet are fine, but I'm finding this all very interesting from an observer standpoint.
ncsrbug, it sounds to me (not knowing much) that podiatrists tend to only look at the feet, while the problem might really be further up. Afterall, the footbone is connected to the anklebone, etc. Maybe you could find a physical therapist or similar professional who looks at the whole package. Again, I don't know much, but it just seems like common sense, particularly given Knott's excellent discourse on the topic.
I teach. I've worn them for 2 weeks without any "no no" from my principal. The kids LOVE them and think they are too funny. I figure they are no uglier than the Ugg boots that teachers wear, or the crocs or open toed sandals.Quote:
Originally Posted by MDHillSlug
When I'm told I can't wear them anymore I won't. Until then, I'll wear them.
I think they've helped my posture. I've noticed it lately that I'm walking more with my shoulders back and standing taller. Don't know if it's the VFF's or not, but I like it.
I ran .5 mile with the VFF's today, then finished the 3 mile run with my running shoes & orthotics. I want to work up very slowly so I don't have any issues. I've been doing lots of arch stretching and calf stretches.
Crossing fingers this helps all my feet/knee/ITB problems...
Your podiatrist and I are on the same page.Quote:
Originally Posted by nscrbug
Yes, that "grain of rice" is a little callus from a dropped met head. Obviously it's not a bad one: you don't have issues until you've been running more than 3 miles. So I wouldn't expect a sucker the size of your thumb (like mine was, and my toes were miserable sad creatures nearly all the time).
The dropped met head just means your metatarsal arch is sloppy. The muscles in there are either weak, or on vacation. You can help cue the arch by putting in a metatarsal button (arch support) that goes well behind the ball of your foot. (if you have a met cushion *under* the ball of your foot, I beg you to take it out for a couple weeks and see what happens)
When the metatarsal arch is squishing down, nerves that run between the "knuckles" of your toes get squished, too. You can have neurogenic pain from compressed nerves that feels exactly like a neuroma WITHOUT having a neuroma. You can have a functional problem, not a structural (fat lumpy irritated globby nerve body) problem, and still have similar sensations. (cyclists' "Hot foot" is a classic functional nerve compression problem)
The nerve getting squished may not necessarily be running along the dropped met head. The whole neighborhood is getting squished, it's just a matter of who squeaks first.
Somewhere around here is a detailed set of exercises I wrote up for a dropped met head. I think it was in a Morton's Foot thread. I'll go find it. ETA: here it is http://forums.teamestrogen.com/showp...2&postcount=40
And yes, dropped met heads sometimes go along with pronation posture issues, but they don't really fix themselves without some direct attention to the foot itself.
Barefoot vs. VFF
VFF are shoes. In fact, they are shoes with the same thickness of sole and lack of support structure as the training and racing flats we wore back in the 70's. Nothing new there. (what is new is the toes, which I'll get into later) We ran looong distances and fast races in shoes very similar to VFF and Newtons, etc.
Big wedge heels and complex support structures have been the fashion for 30 years or so. I think we're seeing a backlash against that now.
Here's my opinion why: it is very hard to run in poor posture in training flats.
(Mind you, I think everything wrong with the universe is due to poor posture.)
Let me start off by throwing a metaphor into the mix.
Pretend we've got a teenager who slouches. Are we immediately going to give him pain drugs and put him in a brace and run tape along his extensor muscles and make him sit in a high-backed ergonomic chair? No, we're gonna yell at him to sit up straight! If he can sit up straight on his own, then we know it's just a sloppy posture problem, and we nag him to change his habits. If we make him sit on a stool in good posture, it's hard work and he can't do it for long, but it's good training. If we put him on a plane for Australia, are we gonna make him sit on a stool? Heck no, we're gonna put him in a nice ergonomic chair! Sitting on a stool in good posture for that long would be agony.
However, if our teenager simply cannot sit up straight on his own are we gonna put him on a stool? No. We're going to give him an ergonomic chair and we're going to investigate why he can't sit himself up straight and we're going to address the problem.
There is a time for the stool, and there's a time for the ergonomic chair.
... continued
Training flats (VFF, Newtons, etc) are the stool, standard modern running shoes are the ergonomic chair.
If you develop bad posture habits, there are modern shoes that will compensate for your bad habits and you can continue running. But bad habits often creep back up on people.
If you can fix your habits voluntarily and monitor yourself, running in training flats is a good way to correct yourself. The training flats won't hide your bad habits from you, you have to face them and deal with them.
Perhaps folks who could have voluntarily corrected themselves were all put into highly structured modern shoes. The shoes hid the problem, but the bad habit got worse and the posture got sloppier. What they needed to do was face the bad habit and fix it. (sit on the stool instead of the ergonomic chair). These are the folks who feel fabulous in training flats (VFF, Newtons, etc.).
But some folks really need the modern shoes. They can't correct themselves, for what ever reason. I wouldn't take their modern shoes away, but I'd work hard to figure out what was going on.
Now, if someone who feels great in training flats puts on a pair of modern shoes, are they being naughty? Heck no! No more than someone who has great posture is naughty for sitting in an ergonomic chair. It's not laziness, either. It's just a tool, not a moral judgement.
Barefoot.
When you are barefoot, there is no-where to hide...
I make my foot posture patients work barefoot... a lot. They start by working on standing barefoot in good posture. When they've mastered that, they work on walking around the house barefoot in good foot posture. When they have that under control, I have them jog through their houses barefoot.
I like barefoot. It is an excellent training tool. What you learn while barefoot will still be used while wearing shoes.
When I was in track we were all encouraged to run barefoot drills on the beach or on grassy fields. I think that's still pretty standard, from what I hear. Barefoot is some good stuff, if you are doing it in good posture.
If running barefoot long distances makes someone happy, I ain't stopping 'em. If they do best in training flats, more power to 'em. If they run joyfully in motion control shoes with custom orthotics, hot doggies for finding the right tool for the job. Just like we tell newbie cyclists to "ride your ride", we also need to "run your run."
If one thing isn't working, try something else. Don't be afraid to experiment, you never know what you'll discover!
Toes and Bunions.
(See, I was segue-ing on topic, more or less. Kind of. Maybe.)
Toes are very cool. They do a lot more than we give them credit for. I like to be able to use my toes, which is why I tend to prefer sandals and Birkenstocks. I also looooove Injinji toe socks. VFF are nifty because they are training flats with separate toesies.
Bunions are also very cool, but not in a nice way. They have usually two causes contributing to them: genetics and cramped toes. I like to put bunion patients who can still achieve corrected positioning of the great toe into things like Chaco Z/2 sandals. If I can get someone like that who is willing to try some VFF, I'll be very excited to see what happens. Toes like to be free! Happy toes can lead to less painful bunions. Bring on the toes!
If you've had a bunionectomy, I would suggest asking your podiatrist before you switch into any training flats. For pin placement and retention, you may need to be running in a motion control or stability shoe.
I can wear my Vibrams in my classroom and I also have been going barefoot in my room.
Toes are actually the #1 difference I notice between barefoot and shod. Maybe that's just because I'm so wide in the forefoot. When my pinky toes are inline with the 5th metatarsals, everything feels so much better. I can't even do that in sandals. They all pull in.
so i have small bunions but i have spent the majority of my life barefoot and have always avoided shoes that cramp my toes at all. would that mean my bunions are pretty much all genetic? they don't bother me at all unless i get shoes that don't give my toes room.Quote:
Originally Posted by KnottedYet
i have wanted to take up running for a long time and am finding this thread to be very interesting. i ran everyplace barefoot as a kid it ever occurred to me i could take up running now and do it barefoot!
Very interesting stuff....since my massage therapist has pointed out the way I stand. Often w/ more weight on one leg and shifting my hip out to the side. Claims that has some stuff to do w/ my back muscles and some over development on one side versus the other. I always thought I had good posture since I am short, I stand up straight, don't hunch--even sitting at the computer I do that. However now that I am in my mid 40's having lots of lower back pain (noted when walking slow, strolling type walking). I do core work and know my tight hamstrings play a role. But until recently I never thought of myself as not having good posture. Hmmmmmmm, guess I need to really look into this.
As for barefoot. I spend a lot of time in flip flops or other sandal type shoes..including birks, croc's, etc. I don't really walk barefoot much (even in FL) since I have a real aversion to my feet being dirty. (It really grosses me out). I keep thinking about trying running either barefoot or trying the VFF's. Haven't made the leap yet. But after losing 2 toenails to my 1st marathon AND noting my big toe on my other foot is bruised underneath (please let me keep that toenail)...I really need to find something to run in that is not causing damage to my feet/toes. I did note that my feet hurt more after my long runs than my legs. So how does one's feet feel after that distnace? And as your speed increases in VFFs or barefoot...how does your foot strike not increase. Probably a dumb question. I feel that if I run faster, it equals harder and worry more impact on foot strike. I may just be all wrong about it.
K
Thank you Knott, once again to the rescue.
In my case they (the bunions) are genetic. So I guess I should work more on going barefoot to begin with and then work into some VFF's. When I have a job and can afford such things. I was looking at the Chacos the other day thinking how nice it would be to have my great toe facing forward.
Would the VFF's force the great toe forward by design?
Thank you everyone for contributing, I am learning a lot here.
Red Rock
If you can't wear VFFs to your work, try ballet shoes. No one's going to tell you not to wear them, and they have a very barefoot-like feel.
I have decided to stop running in my running shoes and have been walking with a little running before and after school at about 50 minutes each. So I hope this will eventually increase to more running time with my Vibrams. I also have in really short spurts done a little BF running and walking.
Very interesting stuff about posture and pronation - Knot strikes again. ;) I'm going to have to do a little studying on myself there. I have a feeling my heel pain in shoes is some kind of mis-alignment that I'm arguing with and need to un-learn before I am forced to un-learn it with help.
My big toe callous under my right big toe actually hurts when I run on it for significant distance, in shoes and to a much lesser extent in the VFFs, and I'm trying to figure out why - the left one feels fine. Feels like I do have a bit of tough skin formed between my big toe and second toe (have had blisters there, too), and my right big toe callous is MUCH tougher than my left. I've considered seeing a podiatrist or someone that can tell me where the pain in my foot is referring to how I'm running, something in my posture, or something I can/should actually correct ON my feet (soften my over-hardened callous?), or maybe a combination.
I wear my VFFs to work too - I work at a software company (I also bring my dog to work :p). I also wore them to a conference this week representing my company, but software/network security/IT people are kind of a different breed to begin with. ;)
I started running in VFFs fairly "aggressively" I'd say, but I do have a relatively strong base and a fairly consistent volume of running under my belt through the last 9-12 months. If my base mileage was 3 miles in one shot or 10-15 miles a week total spread across many days, I would have started out much lighter. As it is, you really have to listen to your body, and don't forget to stretch! :D
Colby - do you have a running coach or sports med PT who could look at your running form? It sounds like you might be over-striding, and maybe vaulting or whipping on the right foot during toe-off.
(shoes can let you over-stride and get away with it for quite a while)
Keep in mind that VFF's don't work for everyone. If your second toe is significantly longer than your big toe, it is apparently hard to get a good fit. And if your pinky toe is really short or low on the outside of your foot, you will again have difficulties. If your pinky toe is just tightly curled under, then the VFFs will help fix that, actually. The problem is that if your toes can't remain in the pockets, running in them would be incredibly painful. I don't know if walking in them would work and if that might help the problem, but it's a pretty expensive experiment, if you ask me. I have no idea how a bunioned (is that a word?) foot would do in VFF's.
Now, if you have basically flipper feet like I do, they'll fit perfectly the first time you slip them on! I also wear mine to work but I do not wear them for running. I'm sticking to true barefoot running and just working my way up very, very slowly. Since I have always had flat feet, problems with shin splints and ball of foot pain, it just blows my mind that even the small amount of barefoot running I've done over the past three months has helped so much. I am 100% foot/lower leg pain free right now! Unreal!
Quote:
Originally Posted by GLC1968
THIS is interesting and has given me some hope in trying VFF's. My right pinky toe curls under, quite excessively. After any runs in my normal running shoes (Mizuno Wave Inspire & Adidas Supernova Sequence 2), that pinky toe is beet red and very tender to the touch. The two toes next to my pinky, also have a tendency to misbehave...by underlapping each other, which I'm sure causes some friction and rubbing. I was hoping that with the toe pockets on the VFF's, this might help "train" my toes to straighten out. Is this a plausible theory? I've already tried the Injini toe socks, but they are way too thin for me and induce the toe numbing way faster than a thicker, padded sock does.
I think it is, based on my experience and what I read here: about toesQuote:
Originally Posted by nscrbug
My feet are already pretty close to the spread out toe condition which is why my VFF's slid right on the first time and why they feel totally natural to me. Of course, the little device they sell at that podiatrists office (mentioned in the link) might be a cheaper way of getting there, too.
I think my PT might do running form analysis (haven't seen them since I graduated from my hip injury, which of course may entirely be related - we might have fixed one system but not all of them). I did notice that the VFFs increase my cadence and shorten my stride. I try to practice mirroring the right to the left in feel (and the VFFs help that), but I think I need to rebuild some related muscle memory.Quote:
Originally Posted by KnottedYet
Good advice. :)
Those of you who are switching to barefoot and/or VFFs: beware! You will find yourself not wanting to wear other kinds of shoes, even when you're not running. They begin to just not feel right. Given the number of situations where going barefoot or wearing VFFs is not considered acceptable, this is a bummer. Especially since just about any "acceptable-looking" shoe (for anything other than very casual situations) will have some degree of an elevated heel, stiff sole, not enough room for the toes to spread out naturally, or some combination of the above. Hopefully this will start to change soon with all the current interest in going barefoot/wearing minimal shoes.
Jolt - have you noticed any cross-over between VFF and Birkenstocks? I have the perfect Birki feet - it's like those suckers were made for ME. (and, oh, do I feel special!) But I wasn't able to fit VFF at all because my great toe is so huge compared to the rest of my toes that to get a size that felt right left me with floppy flaccid toes everywhere else.
Mostly, I'm wondering if the neutral heel, straight last, and broad toe box of Birkis translate well to the neutral heel, straight last, and unlimited toe box of the VFF.
I didn't have any trouble going to Keen sandals after wearing the VFFs for a couple weeks pretty much straight, but Keens are well known for their toebox and foot-friendly shape. ANY shoes that squash my toes feel absolutely wrong - even my bike shoes.
I feel like the VFFs are one of those toe aligner dealies that you see in the SkyMall catalog or in the back of magazines. My left pinky toe always feels funny the first time I put it back in the VFFs after wearing other shoes, like it's being put back where it belongs. I wear them for a while, my toes feel great and the shoes go on super easy, then I wear regular shoes, even just for a night, come back to the VFFs, and I have to argue with my toes to get in them. ;)
I capitulated and just ordered a pair of the KSOs from REI. My feet are "pre-bunion," according to a podiatrist I saw a few years ago. If I love these shoes, it's going to be very difficult not to wear them to work....
I haven't worn Birkenstocks but I would imagine you're right. They're one of the very few shoes shaped like a real foot, and are flat from toe to heel. The only potential problem with them is that they aren't flexible. Check out this link http://barefootted.com/2008/08/my-huaraches.html for sandals you can make yourself (for running or otherwise) that fit all the criteria for staying out of the way of the natural functioning of your feet.Quote:
Originally Posted by KnottedYet
I run in Chaco sandals, and have recommended Chacos to a lot of patients (not necessarily for running, just in general). Birkis seem to only really fit a specific type of foot, so I don't direct patients to them unless they already know they've liked them in the past.
If I could wear VFF I'd buy a pair just so I could experience them and pass the info along to my foot people. I can rationalize a lot of shoe purchases that way...;)
Neutral heel and straight last AND wide toe box are rather hard to find, and I'd like to be able to add a few more shoes to my recommendation toolbox. (Even though I haven't worn them myself, I did suggest them to a patient with great foot posture barefoot, kinda iffy posture in regular shoes, and who prefers sports sandals and moccasins. They seemed like a reasonable match, and she was quite excited about how funky they look.)
With all of this talk on shoes....well I added some Chacos to my collection this week. My shoes are becoming like my bike collection:D. A big Thank you goes out to Knott on these;):D;). Its nice to know that they are recommened by the Podiatry Association. They have a great arch support and hold by big bunioned toe in place. One foot is worse than they other.
Now I am either in my Danskos or Chacos.
GLC1968-thank you for your eval on the VFF's and toe placement.
I think with the Chacos having the toe "strapped in" actually feels better.
Red Rock
Been suffering from a heel injury for the last month or so and not really feeling like it was improving, despite resting & icing it. I randomly made an appointment with PT at a local sports medicine clinic and fully expected to be told to 'hang up the running shoes'. After a thorough assessment, the PT confirmed that it was a bruised heel and we talked about treatment. It was when he suggested that I try running barefoot on the treadmill that the light went on. We spent the next 15 minutes talking about barefoot running - showed me the VFF KSO's he uses - and I had a chance to try running barefoot on the indoor track attached to the clinic. What - no pain?Quote:
Originally Posted by OakLeaf
Now I can hardly wait to try this out - I had to order VFFs as no one in town sells them - but they should be here within the next few days. And I do need something on my feet. First of all, there's too much snow on the ground right now and way too much crud on the roads, trails, paths, to truly run barefoot.
The other thing I'm excited about is going barefoot around the house and around the yard....when the snow goes, of course. Had always done that; like so many others on this thread, I had grown up barefoot but over the past few years had listened to those telling me that I needed to protect my feet as I got older.:(
So, the PT did tell me to 'hang up my running shoes' but not in the context I imagined. It's been very enlightening reading about others' experiences on this thread; while I don't expect all my foot troubles to magically disappear, I am looking forward to the 'barefoot running' expeience.
Sorry this is so long - but can you tell I'm excited..:D:D
I picked up a pair of VFF sprints at REI on a whim a few months ago- they had one pair in stock (normally they don't stock them, but someone had returned an online order and they were just sitting on the ground in the shoe section) and they were in MY SIZE. I tried them on in the store and said, 'what the heck!' and bought them.
I wore them once on a treadmill before realizing they were actually a bit too big, so I ordered a smaller size. Still actually have the bigger pair, have yet to return them (left the tags on since I wasn't sure about the fit).
Anyway, I've been adding on 0.5 miles on to the end of my treadmill runs this winter when I didn't run outside, so I got a bit more used to them, but I've been waiting for it to get warmer to take them out!
I took them out yesterday for 0.8 miles and they felt GREAT. I felt so... fast! And free!
My feet certainly aren't made for these shoes. My second toe is slightly longer than my big toe, but not enough to make a huge difference. And my pink tends to curl under the other toes, so that means it takes a lot of manual labor to get my toes in their respective pockets. But once in there they feel okay, at least for now.
Here's a question for people, any funny stores of 'what are THOSE!'. When I first took mine outside on the track at work, I passed some of the security guards out walking during lunch, and their conversation stopped as they passed me, then they started whispering and laughing. I knew they were looking at my shoes but I didn't really care. It was way too much fun to run in them!
Also I saw a girl at my rock gym in these, though i personally think the rubber is too soft to use for any really technical climbing and that also might make them more prone to rock-induced damage and would get ruined too quickly. I also know another guy at my work gym who runs on them on the treadmill, but then apparently there's a growing crowd of BFers at my work gym. What can I say, we're scientists... we're all about empirical research!!!
Chaco has finally done it right! After flailing around with Merrell (for the disasterous hiking boots and shoes in the early 2000's) and the appalling sneakers (mid 2000's) they've taken a cue from Birkenstock. Basing a heel-strap clog on their fabulous Z1/Z2 footbed (like Birkenstock did with the Tokyo) to make the "Toe-Coop" and a closed-heel clog (like Birkenstock did with the London) to make the "Ped-Shed." These won't be available until July 2010. $110 for the heel-strap clog (Toe-Coop) and $120 for the closed-heel clog (Ped-Shed).Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Rock
And they will be resoleable like the Z1 and Z2!
Yay!
ETA: Serendipity - I run barefoot in the snow (truly barefoot, not with training flats like VFFs). It's good stuff. Give it a try over a short distance.
Wow, KnottedYet, I have never considered running barefoot in the snow.Quote:
Originally Posted by KnottedYet
You inspire me, but for next year :D
Actually we've lost all the snow we had over the past week or so and unless we get a major snowstorm (and that entirely possible), it looks like next winter....which will give me time to build up my courage!
I never ran far (30 yards, tops!) but it felt so neat that I made a point of doing a little run in the snow on sunny days.
That was when I lived where it snowed...
I still run in the snow when I go to visit my mom, but that's not every week!
It's really a lot of fun! I thought my feet would get very cold, but for a short jaunt they stay pretty ok.
Re-post from Chi Running:
Quote:
Anybody practice chirunning or barefoot running in South Florida? Journalist looking to interview for a magazine article. Please contact Margit Bisztray at majo705@yahoo.com, thanks!
Got a pair of VFF Sprints yesterday. Honestly I'm not sure if they're going to work with my toes or not, but they were close enough I'm going to give them a try for a bit. Or, I may have a pair of size 41s for sale in the near future...
I've been pretty much wearing ONLY my VFF's for about a month now. We did a mountain hike on Tuesday and I wore my trail running shoes with my custom orthotics (I thought I'd need the extra toe protection and support). My arches have hurt terribly for the last 2 days. Eek! :eek: I guess going from no support to full-on support was NOT a good idea.
I'm hiking for 4 days in the Grand Canyon this summer. I want to wear my VFF's, but I'm afraid they won't protect my feet as well as traditional shoes. I'm stumped at what to do. Maybe I should wear my trail shoes but without the orthotics... I've got lots of experimenting to do over the next 3 months.:rolleyes:
The trek is supposed be out for women in the near future.:)
bwaa haaa haaa (insert evil laugh here).... perfecto!Quote:
Originally Posted by twin