OT - Politics, Religion... the taboos

singletrackmind "I bet the chances someone they hold in esteem is gay, even if just a friendly acquaintance, is very likely."

Odds are even a family member.

"I wish those that are fearful (I think you're right) could not only realize this but also not look at the gays they do know through different eyes."

Our part in this is it's up to gay people to come out to their families and friends the extent they feel comfortable with whom they can. Otherwise folks think it's just Rosie and Ellen and Jack and not approx. 10% of any given population including this board I suppose ;-)

I remember in college centuries ago having coffee after a Karate class with my teacher, just chatting I don't remember how the subject came up I think it was about women in the sport and the difficulty getting promoted in rank anyway and she started going on about how she didn't like lesbians. She felt we are tough, overbearing, pushy, aggressive, diesel truck driving b****s she's going on and finally I'd just about had it.

I thought to myself "self, you may loose a friend here but I can't listen to this s*** any longer"

So said "but Carol, I'm Gay. You don't think I'm like that, do you?"

You could see the lightbulb go off. "No, you're not, I like you. guess they are all different".

No one's asking anyone to like all Gay people, some of us are just plain *not* likeable just like some Christians barely deserve the compliment and name.

You might dislike me for any one of my many faults but that's just me there's no "Gay personality" we're all different.

I think to myself "self....." too!

It's not just gays, either, it's difference. When I was a kid I had a couple of friends who had a caucasion mom and african-american dad. One day I was helping my grandma make jelly and she started going on about how horrible it was that Bryon and George would never be able to date because of being 'zebras' and all. I didn't understand what she meant at first-just pictured my friends with stripes and thought grandma had lost it. I just said "anyone they want to?".

After some thought to her comments my little kid head finally got it and I never could get over that she'd think that way.

How about that? I'm intollerant of differences too-of some opinions!

We shouldn't like or dislike others because of who they sleep with (or marry or their color or weight or whatall) but for who they are as an individual.

It's been argued that the Constitution should not be ammended to ban Gay marriage because the Constitution protects rights and has *never* been used to discriminate.

But we should never forget that in December of 1912, an amendment to the Constitution was introduced to abolish racial intermarriage:

"Intermarriage between negros or persons of color and Caucasians . . . within the United States . . . is forever prohibited."

wow, "forever prohibited".

I'm not quite sure of the year but the anti-misegnation (sp?) laws were not removed till something like late 60's? Someone? Anyone sure of the date? Technicaly I read they are still on the books in some of the Southern States but not enforced.

C'mon folks, these are heterosexual marriages were considered void right here in the good ol' USA or who could not marry. In bringing up this issue I've had people talk to me about this, straight couples sharing how they felt being unable to marry, and the same arguments were used against them.

I don't consider myself old, c'mon folks we're still going through this?

ok, I'm going to jump in here.

Both my parents are/were gay, one is deceased. I've worked really hard at seperating out thier personal problems, of which there were many, from sexual orientation.

Here's my question. Can someone please explain the whole seperatist thing to me? I just don't get it. Is it hate, self protection, anger or what?

Not once but twice in my life I have been disinvited from a gay person's home - a day visit was fine, but staying overnight was out of the question. Both times I was traveling with a boyfriend. Once time it was a male couple's home, friend of the boyfriends, and the other time it was my mom's housemates. "no straight people f*****g" at our house" is what I was told. ( like they were going to wait and watch to see what we did at night????)Why she let it happen is a different story but anyway... I can't imagine it was anything that I/we did, it seemed just a philosophy that was happening.

The really hilarious thing is that during these traveling days, we also stopped at boyfriend ( now hubby's) parents, and they told us we couldn't sleep together since we weren't married. This was within a few days of being de-welcomed at one of these other places. Talk about can't win for losing...

anyway, it was a really long time ago, but I still know seperatists, ( no male anything: no boy dogs, car mechanics, repair persons, etc) and I just don't get it. Anyone care to elaborate?

the good thing about being raised in the nutty home I was raised in is that I am a very open minded person, but somethings I just need clarity on.

Irulan

Irulan:

What an interesting upbringing! Hopefully this isn't a stupid question but were your parents male and female (but gay married to each other), or male/male or female/female? Did your friend understand your parents were gay and if so, how did they react? Would yu consider it a normal household (I know what's normal nowadays, but you know, tradition roles, didn't ecpect you to be one way ot the other etc)?

Geez, I would love to sit down over an ice tea and salad and talk about your life. Your insight must be amazing!

Well, I'm gay and I don't get the separatism either! (Ahem) some of my best friends are straight!

I've known some gay folks over the years (mostly a generation older than I am) who tended to not to hang out with straight people, of either gender - and I just figured they must have suffered so much from discrimination or intolerance, that they had decided not to put themselves in the path of further pain by surrounding themselves with "like-minded" people only. But I suppose other separatists would have other reasons.

I guess, to the degree we can choose to, we all avoid people that make us crazy, uncomfortable, angry, scared, etc. But, as this thread has so admirably shown, if we surround ourselves and interact only with like-minded people, no matter how broad we think our own minds are, we lose the opportunity to understand and accept all of what life offers.

I have been so impressed and grateful for the thoughful, heartfelt, humorous and respectful posts on this topic - it's a pretty extraordinary conversation!

Interesting news this am from Spain; it is easier to see it happening in places like The Netherlands and Belgium--even Canada--but Spain legalizing marrriage for gay people! Of course, when you realize that they have also provided things like affordable state subsidized child care for parents --- clearly they are socially pretty progressive.

Of course, there are also fabulous cyclists from Spain. Coincidence?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bcipam

Irulan:

What an interesting upbringing! Hopefully this isn't a stupid question but were your parents male and female (but gay married to each other), or male/male or female/female? Did your friend understand your parents were gay and if so, how did they react? Would yu consider it a normal household (I know what's normal nowadays, but you know, tradition roles, didn't ecpect you to be one way ot the other etc)?

Geez, I would love to sit down over an ice tea and salad and talk about your life. Your insight must be amazing!

---

My dad, deceased now, was closeted until I was in my teens. He had the
time of his life in the WWII army, lost his job with the State Dept in the
McCarthy era due to being followed to gay bars, my mom thought she could
change him and maybe he thought she could, too. " There are no other WOMEN" was his MO. My mom, to this day I'm not sure if she knows where she fits exactly, but chose to start to move into the gay women's community about 35 years ago. I'm 45.

I'm convinced that if my father had been in a culture where he was free to
be who he really was, instead of being closeted, pretending, and living a
double life, he would have been a much less troubled man than he was. Of I
might not have been born, then.

My parents had a lot of problems, and my home life was very dysfunctional.
They did a lot of things "wrong" that would not have happened in any family
that was emotionally healthy, and committed to each other, regardless of sexual orientation. Please take note that I've worked really hard to seperate out personal problems from sexual
orientation. It wasn't a movie perfect family by a long shot. But I know
plenty of gay families that exemplify the kind of functional family life I
wish I could have, and I'm trying to be a much better parent to my kids than
my parents were to me.

to try and answer some of your other questions, first, no pressure to be anything other than who I am. Second, as to what people and their reactions, judgements: this was the 60's and 70's, my dad was closeted. There were a lot of problems in our house, but no one talked about dysfunctional families back then. Every kid I knew back then, in my teens - we all had some sort of problems at home but we never talked about them. Our family was sort of on the counterculture fringe anyway, so - anything goes, you know?

Insight, I dunno. I'm pretty lifestyle tolerant. I'm more intested in people's general well being, emotional health, than who they sleep with.


~i.

Irulan, you've had a very interesting journey! And good for you for not wanted to connect "messed-up" with sexual orientation.

If it helps to know this....my family could not have been more picture perfect from the outside, but I was an incredibly unhappy youngest child living with a bunch of backstabbing, sucking-up siblings, and parents whose (in)tolerance for each other was a strain to watch, but, since they are catholic and care greatly about what others think of them, still continue their loveless lifeless marriage to this day. At least I think it may still be all those "'less"es....I haven't spoken to them in years.

It's like one comment here. We do our best to avoid people who make us crazy, demoralized, lesser, sad, etc, etc, etc...so I avoid my family. I don't wish them any harm, just hope that they'll pretty much leave me alone.

I've noticed that separatist attitude from some groups once in awhile. I actually won't attend any of those vigils against violence against women as that's too discriminatory. I've seen women at those things turn on men who show up in support....and I think that's horrible. I haven't been hit by it, though, and admit it would be a huge shock!! and hurt!

thank you all for sharing your thoughts and feelings and opinions and stories. what an interesting group we are!!

Namaste
and hugs all around,
~T~

Separatism... now that one's a goodie. My 1st lover was a separatist. Our relationship was very interesting since, at the time, most of my gay friends were men and drag queens to boot (I was a "dresser" and photography for them).

I found that I couldn't be separatist... to me it's another form of discrimination. I remember thinking back then (and occasionally now) that we in the gay comunity couldn't realistically expect the world at large to accept us if we weren't willling to accept the different groups within our own community.

Thusly I live this way; there are tolerable people and intolerable people in every slice of the population, and I choose to recognize that. I've met many a gay woman and man that was mean, bully-ish, and exercising "domestic violence" on their partner. It's not just a "straight" or "racial" thing.

I don't divide my friends btn gay, straight, christian, jew, catholic, black, white, etc.

They are just my friends.

spazzdog

I've never been a seperatist, never wanted to be one. I think I understand the reason some are but it would never work for me.

Some of my best friends are men, straight men at that. I like men, a whole lot! I just don't sleep with them is all .... any more. Not a gold star lesbian but that was so long ago it doesn't count. Anyway....

In an urban area and especially here it would be possible to simply dissapear in the Gay community but for one it's just not practical. The best bike mechanic is a man, my favorite restaraunts, book stores ... all run by any number of communities. I'd miss so much, be so limited. That's why I like it here is the diversity.

My friends and even family are all over the map. I'm lucky to be close to my family but also count the family I have chosen, my friends. What they all have in common is personality. I feel lucky to have found a group of friends who have inteligence, share my quirky sense of humor, love of good food, progressive politics, art, music. How could I dissregard them because this one's black, that one's Wiccan, that one's a guy.....they are all my friends.

Also I feel that Ghetto-ization (is that a word?) never works, it issolates and polarizes a community. We see this over and over. Difficult to explain this but I consider myself "twice blessed" as both Gay and a Jew. All of us have our feet in many worlds. I couldn't choose just one culture.

Irulan:

Thank you so much for sharing some of your life. Uncertain if it is difficult for you to discuss it and if so thanks all the more for sharing.

I have often wondered if my mother is not gay. My parents are in their 80's so you can imagine that sort of thing was not discussed or even considered. My parents have been married over 56 years and appear to be happy or at least comfortable in their lifestyle but my mother has never liked men (my poor brother was pretty ridiculed growing up and that has scarred him for life). Even with her grandchildren (3 boys, 2 girls) she is pretty offstandish with the boys and absolutely adores the girls. My poor Dad, he just has more patience than anyone I know. Since I was a tom boy, more like my Dad than her, I wasn't particularly like as well.

So of course, my household was pretty dysfunctional as well for many other reasons. I'm not certain anyone has a "Ozzie and Harriet" upbringing. I guess the what you had gives you the strength and insight to see pass labels and societal taboos to see the real person. I hope my upbringing (which was difficult, I was physically abused by my mother who was not a happy person) has given me some strength as well.

I recently saw a program on Discovery Health about transgender sex operations. The folks they covered were men (andthere was also a show on women to men), who had married and had children and then decided they can no longer live the lie and needed to become women. The show didn't sugar coat what this does to the families. Where does this leave the wife? How about the kids? No real good answers and I guess now that society is more accepting of sexual differences, less people will try and hid their sexual differences, first live the"lie" and then destroy their families.

Spazz... you left out pagans... :cool:

And I agree so much with you... people are poeple, regardless of their gender, their colour, race or ethnicity, or their religion or spirituality

People have faults and people have wonderful traits.

Its up to each of us to find the magic in every one else.

Separist attiutudes... whether they come from radical feminists, rabid animal rights people, fundementalist Christians, politicians, or our next door neighbours are unhealthy.

I'm not living in an ideal bubble-world where we can all hold hands and love each other unconditionally ... but I am saying why can't more people celebrate difference when that difference hurts no other creatures... why can't we learn to celebrate difference instead of fearing it?

bcipam posts

"I have often wondered if my mother is not gay.....My parents have been married over 56 years .... but my mother has never liked men (my poor brother was pretty ridiculed growing up and that has scarred him for life). Even with her grandchildren (3 boys, 2 girls) she is pretty offstandish with the boys and absolutely adores the girls. My poor Dad, he just has more patience than anyone I know. Since I was a tom boy, more like my Dad than her, I wasn't particularly like as well."

Sounds like that was tough for all of you. Sorry to hear that.

Being a lesbian at least for me (speaking as I do for all gay people <vbg>) has never been about not likeing guys. It's about loveing women, a whole lot.

Do you know anything about your Mom's childhood? Could she have been abused by a man? Something happened that has turned her off men but that does not necessarily mean she's gay. Sorry that she put some of that on you.

bcipam, check out the thread on cycling and gender. Our own 'chelle was most gracious to sign on to TE (and stick around) after we opened a topic based on a story about her that appeared in a magazine.

We're delighted she showed up and more delighted that she has stayed on as part of our "TE family".

Here's the link to the thread: http://forums.teamestrogen.com/showt...ht=Transgender