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At a bike race everyone is so focused on themselves no one has the time to worry about how everyone else looks in their skin suits (unless you show up in a full body hot pink one :p ) that said, I think the aero helmet will make a bigger difference than a skin suit...Quote:
Originally Posted by RoadRaven
In a couple weeks I'll finally get to try mine out! Hopefully this year I'll have stronger legs to match too :D (I have my long awaited Giro - yeah!)
I know that everyone is focused on themselves... but the problem would be I would be so focused on myself that I would worry about distracting others from their focus. I am sooooo considerate!
hahahaha...
So, seriously, what date for your next TT Eden, if its only a few weeks away?
And have you had much of a chance to train on your disc? I have decided I don't like disc wheels... they are heavy if the course has any slight hills (and you know me by now... I am not so fast on hills (still working on it...)
I have still not dropped enough in weight to use my last year's birthday pressie - Grammo Vipers (which have a 90kg weight restriction on them) - deep dish wheels and so sweet to look at. But I use my partners tri-spokes and he uses my front Viper with his Zip on the back... so we are both happy.
Looking forward to hearing about it - don't forget to post a race report please... there aren't many of us here that TT and although I can read TT reports on other boards they are usually by males and their speeds are so far from what I can achieve and the way they report is somehow, intangiably, different to the way our reports are written here...
First race of the year, coming right up on Feb 24th.
It's a shortie - 9 mile (14.5 km) flat TT - so really it might be too short to really see much of a quantitative difference from the helmet... I did do the same course last year (hopefully I have the results somewhere so I can compare this year to last)
I don't really train on the disc - its a tubular, so its a real PITA to change the tires... I'd hate to be training on it and get a flat, so if I train on the TT bike I do it with regular wheels. The disc is a bit heavy, but I think on a flatish course its well worth it. Rolling is OK, but for very hilly I'd leave it off. I use my road bike for hillclimb TT's - its just lighter all around and you don't get going fast enough to take advantage of aerogear anyway on a hillclimb.
I'm going to talk you into a skinsuit someday :D I don't know how much of a difference it really makes, but d*mn it feels good (fast) to wear one...
Hey there Eden - I didn't mean training all the time on the disc, rather just trying is out in different winds to see how it feels.
Sorry, I wasn't very clear in what I was asking.
You def wanna make tubbies last asap - and never want to get a flattie in a race!
I have regular wheels to train on too - now I am used to them, the tri-spokes only go for actual TTs.
*ignores comment about skin suits*
lahlahlahlahlahlahlahlahlahlahlahlahlahlahlahlahlahlah.....
Please forgive me if this has been asked. I tried searching, but it didn't get me what I was after...
What kind of HRs do you women tend to average when you are either training for or racing in a time trial of, say, 10 miles?
I know it will vary...that each person's lactate threshold and fitness are different, etc, and everyone's a different age, etc. I'm just curious.
I just spent about 2 hours on a ride with an average HR of 154 (about 85% of max) and lots of longish stretches at about 164 (about 91% of max). I got in some intervals close to max on hills.
I found myself wondering what kind of HR I would be shooting for holding onto for, say 10 miles, if I attempted a beginner's time trial?
I shoot for right around or just above my LT.
Yup... I'm like Eden... try and lurk at or above my LT.
Typical HR pattern in a TT as follows...
In a TT I usually leave with such a rush of adrenilin that my HR seems to spike up to about 168-175 which is approaching my max, but after about 500 metres it settles and I then I wind myself up til it is sitting on 156-158bpm
158bpm is my lactate threshold as measured in a sports lab in 2007.
At the turn-around, or the half-way point in distance, I wind myself up more. I know I can sustain a good power output several beats above my LT for about 10km or 18mins and if my body is responding well I try to keep my HR at 162-165 for the last half of the course.
In the last 2kms I try to lift the speed/power output more and my HR often sits at about 168bpm for the last 1km of the ride - thats 10beats above my LT.
My distances for TT are between 18km and 25km long. 18-20km TTs are ideal for me, but I am still having trouble pacing myself over 25km... that extra 5km makes a significant difference.
So, RR, you had your LT tested in a lab...how about the rest of you?
I feel very sketchy about setting my zones. I tend to use a combination of percentages I have read about it training books, the number I see on the monitor during really hard efforts when I'm gasping for breath (which I assume to be near my max), and sort of a perception of where I am regarding HR when I do rides that leave me pretty sore after.
Have any of you in Seattle been tested, and if so, where?
Is LT the same regardless of type of exertion...such as flat TT vs. climbing?
I feel like I am always guessing about to set my HRs. This has been bugging me for awhile.
I have been tested. (at Real Rehab http://www.realrehab.com/pages/servi....php#metabolic) I was though, not particularly suprised at what my LT is, as I had been racing for a year before I did the testing and I knew what type of output I could sustain for longer periods without burning myself out completely (which basically is your LT) What I had been naturally TT'ing at was my LT.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starfish
I think you may be underestimating your max. VT (ventilatory theshold - when you start gasping) can have nothing to do with LT or Max HR. I reach my VT (breathing hard enough that I cannot talk in full sentences) somewhere in my hr zone 4 - probably around 85% of my max and have definitly hit it at 90% of max. I don't think you nessessarily need to have a whole fancy VO2 test just to get your max hr though - there are self tests you can do on a trainer. I don't have the time to look it up right now, but I have a book with a good test in it (I got an accurate measurment from this). When I get back this afternoon I'll look it up for you. When you really hit your max, you'll probably know - you'll want to fall over or throw up.... The test I have is a bit more gentle - it's a submaximal test, but it still works.
I personaly do find that I can hold a higher hr on a hillclimb TT than on a flat one - typically 5-7 hr beats higher.
Starfish, I also have a couple of self-tests. PM me if you want me to send them to you. The ones I have are from Chris Carmichaels's Food for Fitness book. With his method, he has the person do some specific high intensity cycling (or running) sequences and uses average heart rate to determine heart rate intensities that correspond to training different energy systems. He uses AHR because they're indicative of a true response to the entire duration of the effort.
If Eden has seen this one, she may be able make more of a comment on as a comparison of other self-tests.
Thanks, you two. I actually have the Carmichael book The Ultimate Ride, and he describes doing 2 x 8 minute (or 3 mile) efforts and taking the average of those two...using that rather than actual max HR. I did that one a year or two ago, and I always wondered if I was using a high enough number for setting my zones.
I mention the gasping part because I seem to have a tough time, either on the trainer or in spin class, pushing myself to what I think my actual max might be. Whereas when I am out on the bike on a really hard, steep hill, it is all I can do to keep from falling over and it seems like my lungs will just burst if I keep trying to get more air in.
I'm feeling very insecure about my HRs and setting the zones. Sometimes I feel like I'm working too hard for a given workout, and others I doubt that I'm working hard enough.
Thanks for your help.
He calls it the CTS (Carmichael Training System) field test and I'm sure it's the same. Yes it's 2x8's or a 3-mile and taking the average. He says (from empirical data) that this average is usually just slightly above lactate threshold and claims it is very close to a person's lab tested lactate threshold. The information in your book is probably similar. What I like about the Food for Fitness book is that he explains how to eat, the way fuel usage changes as intensity increases and helps you to apply it to your own training and nutrition. He ties this all in, including nutrition, with periodization.
In answer to your PM, I have found that it was a little harder to find my "spot" in the very beginning of the season when I did the test. I don't train to race and I typically don't train regularly for biking come late fall through early winter but just do other things. So in early spring when I start up, it it takes a few runs, like maybe the first 5-7 rides to get that groove back with bike fitness. It's then after that the number that I achieve from the test actually works out well. I keep a close eye on it and if my AHR is higher along with a difficult perceived effort for a particular ride I feel it later in terms of fatigue and/or recovery so I tend to trust it.
Then of course there are those days riding when your body revolts and doesn't want to do things as well as the day before. Or I can leave feeling really crappy and have a great ride. In these instances I do trust the number and sort of hold to it. If I'm doing hill intervals I ignore everything and go by how I'm feeling. I'm usually surprised how my body responds and I see improvement by sometimes, 2 rides later.
As an athelete I know my body well though. So I'm of the opinion that I'd ignore what others say about you working hard enough.
I think you're not alone - I (and many others) find that indoors, on a trainer, feels much harder than the same effort outside. You've also been training for a couple of years now, and as you get more fit, it becomes harder and harder to reach your actual max.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starfish
On some weekend that you have scheduled for recovery, if you would like to come over and pace me up Hurricane Ridge, I'm guessing I would find it pretty fast. :p I could buy you and your hubby a beer after, though. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Eden
Seriously, I think I need to start riding with people. I dread it 'cause I'm so slow.
OK, I guess this is getting OT for time trialing. Thank you for all your info! :)
How important, then, is it to know one's max? Is the LT the more important thing to use when training, given that we want to increase it over time?Quote:
Originally Posted by Eden
If you are using hr to train, your zones are based off of your max, so that does set the tenor for all of your training. If you are a little off it might not affect your training so much, but if you are off by a lot you can be working too hard or too easy (depending on which way you are off of course). In general your max is your max, its genetically set and really does not affect how fit you can become. LT is basically the percentage of your max that you can sustain and LT is trainable, so you can raise it. It is desirable to have your LT as close to your max as possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starfish
Knowing your measured LT is useful in a TT for pacing, but I think if you do a few you get to be able to feel it. They don't even have to be organized - just pick a stretch of road that you can go for 10 or 12 Km on without really stopping - you can have a turn around, most TT's have a turn around point midway, and ride as fast as you can while maintaining a relatively steady pace. If your speed falls significantly before you are finished, you've likely exceeded your LT. Like mudmucker said, some days you might not even be able to reach it without burning out, so listening to your body is important too.
Now of course in a competitive TT, when you get close enough to the finish you actually want to exceed your LT and try to time it so that you reach the end at just the point where you have nothing left. You don't want to go too early and peter off before the finish or go too late and still have steam after you cross the line. Figuring out that sweet spot is a lot harder.
As far as climbing Hurricane Ridge - Its a great ride and I do want to come and do it again some time - though I'm generally not allowed to go out and climb mountains on my rest days :D. There's actually a more weekend days this year without races than there have been in the past, so I might be able (urrrr - allowed....) to do it again this summer - and my A races are both climbing races, so I expect to have some longer climb workouts. If we decide to head your way I'll drop you a line when we make our plans.
You would if you were doing it to pace me without dropping me! ;):D LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by Eden
Anyhow, thanks you two...this is very helpful in giving me a handle on these things. I'm wondering if I should make an appt at Real Rehab for the HR stuff and for my body fat. Would be fun to get tested for both now, and again in, say, October.
Great thread. I too am interested in giving TTs a try. I actually have one in mind that's two weeks from now. I haven't really been training too much over the last couple months, and definitely not for a TT, but I figure it couldn't hurt to try. Plus it will be a good chance to race myself into shape ;) Need to figure out the LT though. I'm guessing it's aroung 170. (does that sound too high?) Think I may have to tryout the Carmichael test and see how it goes.
Starfish, I totally understand your frustration with figuring out HR zones. Don't know for sure what my max HR is, though I think it's probably true that it varies with activity. Back when i used to run (last year) I got my HR up to 195. But since then on the bike I've only ever reached 187. Though i suppose it's next to impossible to ever reach one's true HRmax anyway, right? Maybe in a life or death situation...
I don't know...when I was in my teens, some of the swim team workouts came mighty close for me, I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by LainiePants
Yeah, you can hit it, but it's hard.
Don't be surprised about a run/bike HR difference. Generally, for the same level of perceived exertion, HR will always be higher running than cycling. Just because.
Starfish, I aim for a TT heart rate between 175-187. A lot of that depends on the terrain and temperature. For longer TTs where I'd do less warmup, I'd be on the upper end for the first part until I essentially completed my warmup.
I'm going a bit O/T here and am going to talk about DOING TTs instead of doing interval training, LT training, or whatever in preparation for them. The training I think is best has a lot to do with strategy and mental toughness.
I'm a pretty good time trialist and getting better at it all the time. I don't train for time trials, though, and I don't think I need to, personally, unless you count attacking or sitting on the front to set the pace in a race practice as I turn on the suffering :p.
Time trials are more mental than anything. Other than that, you've just got to be fit and have a short recovery time. That way you can "recover" without taking it easy. Short hills out of the wind or some downhill sections will feel like recovery even though you're still going FAST. It helps me to switch up my cadence and gearing sometimes. Get in a strong rhythm for a long section and then change it up when terrain changes to soft pedal a bitwhile still keeping the pace up. In my last time trial, my speed vs elevation graph shows that I accelerated up most of the hills just because it would be windy on descents at the bottom between rollers, so by changing things up, I would really hit the hill and slow down but steadily increase my pace the whole way up. Sometimes that would mean spinning 115rpms by the top, where I'd be ready to shift into harder gears and grind away.
Generally, being a good soloist means that the flatter TTs will be better for you, because you can suffer in the wind alone harder and longer than most. However, if you've got a good soloist mentality and focus, even hillier terrain will still work for you, because some people would need someone to chase to stay focused or to push themselves harder. Good soloists also will excel the longer the TT as more of the competition gets shelled. But how do you get to become a better soloist?
Train by yourself with your computer and heart rate monitor. Get an idea for climbing zones and flat zones where you are working hard but can go forever. Experiment with your aero positioning, so ride in your TT setup alone if you have one. Pay attention to what you think is your comfortable cadence and then on the same terrain, see what happens to your speed if you change the gears up one cog in either direction. After noting any speed changes, how sustainable is it to be in whichever gear makes you go faster (this could be the easier gear)--either by making you tired or your ability to keep focused on a faster cadence.
Pay attention to your face and body and breathing. Do not spend any extra energy tightening your shoulders, grimacing, or gasping. Sometimes, I have to just tell myself to relax, take a deep breath, and shake my head. The grimace is for the final push ;). You must look relaxed when you pass your minute-man.
Pay attention to your hydration and calorie needs and get used to eating and drinking under that kind of stress if the TT is going to be long enough. Do this without taking much of a break, if any. Do not sit up. Do not wait too long so that you consume too much and then feel sick when tucked.
Finally, break up the TT into manageable chunks. I prefer 4ths. For me, it goes something like this: Go go go the first 1/4. Then tell myself I have to keep this up till the 1/2. I'm not even 1/2 way, I can't feel like dying yet. Sometime from 1/2 to 3/4, depending on mileage, I know I will start to lose focus. I may have gotten re-warmed up by this point and am feeling pretty good. I will be mindful of the terrain on the last 1/4 and whether I can see my minute man yet. This is where I have to work more on keeping myself in the game mentally. I watch my speed and cadence even more. I pay more attention to whether my body is relaxed. I do not let up if I can help it, but I try to maximize recovery in those places I mentioned earlier. Then in the last 1/4, it's time to really suffer. At about 2.5km to go, maximum effort. And then from 500 meters all reserves are spent with any possible remaining sprint kicking in at 200 meters.
AicaB, thanks. That is all quite interesting and helpful to read.
I was talking to my coach, and I am thinking of switching up my focus this year because of ALL the snow (and now more gravel and sand) in our hills, as well as the possibility that our one mountain for sustained climbing might get shut down to bikes for road work.
Kinda thinking this might be the year of working on power in the flats.
So didja? didja? didja?Quote:
Originally Posted by LainiePants
Have I missed a race report on this? Or did you not get a chance, Lanie?
When you want to throw up, you are almost at you maxHR. My understanding is that when you do throw up, you are there :pQuote:
Originally Posted by LainiePants
This is so important, I will just stress it again too.Quote:
Originally Posted by aicabsolut
Not only are you more effective if your muscles are "relaxing" into the effort (as opposed to tensing themselves into ineffectiveness) but the pschological advantage over your minute-man and whoever else you may pass is huge. Think about how easy Lance Armstrong made almost every ride look, even though we all knew he must be suffering.
And good advice about breaking the TT into chunks. Ride the course if you can. Know the distances. I know the first quarter landmark and I have a time-goal in my head for the half-way/turn-around.
I also know the landmark 5km out from the finish line, and 2km out and 1km out. I use these last landmarks to up my power output - even though I think I am giving it everything, I can usually find a little bit more...
No time trial for me yet. I've been having IT band issues. No fun at all. But I definitely see TTs in my future...
Ah Lanie, thats no good at all!
Healing thoughts coming your way
RoadRaven, this is a fab thread! :cool:
I'm hoping to get into some TT's this summer and have read through this numerous times for loads of info and tips and it's ****** fantastic!
Shall put them to good use once the summer hits, can't wait :)
Lanie... Suzie... how goes the TTs... any luck with having a go yet?
I just wanted to stress the importance of headspace again... I got it so wrong last week and let the wind get to me. And although everyone seemed to be short of their PB on the course that day, I was nearly a minute slower... and thats too much.
I have the club champs ITT this coming weekend, and headspace is what I am considering most...