Catrin has no problem doing fine shots? Hmmm....:p
I guess i am lucky because I actually like pink. But I get that other women would like to see more variety.
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Catrin has no problem doing fine shots? Hmmm....:p
I guess i am lucky because I actually like pink. But I get that other women would like to see more variety.
As well it should - it had me cracking up as well once I actually READ it and saw what was entered :) Not sure what a finely shot is, but apparently I've no problem doing it!Quote:
Originally Posted by Biciclista
I like certain shades of pink but NOT pastels (ick - no pastels for me). What tends to irritate me is how often that is my only color choice. THAT is what I've a problem with. I also like purple - just not necessarily mixed with pink. I remember the last time I needed to buy weight gloves for the gym. It took multiple stores to find gloves small enough to fit AND wasn't pastel pink!Quote:
Originally Posted by Penny4
This may be more a stocking issue or maybe you didn't get good service optimizing the stock setups than a real lack of market issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Biciclista
64" = 5'3" So you are 5'2.5" I'd have to guess that 5'3" is a fair bit below average height for American women under the age of 60.
Even so, I just walked around our shop I'd say you have 22 choices here of various styles from Hybrids, Road and full suspension mt.
I'm 5'0" with short legs so I do have a hard time finding bikes to test and typically WSD bikes just don't fit me right to start with. No one ever stocks the small men's bikes ever, those are what seem to typically work best for me. Then there's the issue of you're a woman you have to have women's bikes and women's clothing. UGH! Stop telling me that and let me figure out what fits and works best for me. Also I happen to be one who HATES (truly HATES) the color pink and hates having anything "girly" on anything I own. I like dark purples ok (think royal purple type color) but have no use for lighter purples or lavender. UGH! Personally I'm fine a black, gray or blue bike. As far as tops go, why is that if I find something that will fit my shoulders it's way too big everywhere else (of course I have this issue with women's clothing in general). Why do bike stores insist that I need women's jerseys, when they DON'T fit. If I walk into a store wearing men's jeans and men's T-shirts why exactly do they think I even want to look at women's jerseys or clothing in the first place? Heck the first thing we did when we bought our current house was to repaint the kitchen before we moved in. It was pink, it's is now sand color.
I generally stay away from these conversations...but my button has been pushed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koronin
I hate to see someone avoid the best bike for them simply because they are angry that the bike industry dares create some difference between bikes that are MARKETED for women. It's MARKETING.
All I know is the bike shop and bike riding used to be a very lonely place for women. Now, there are TONS of women riding. I fail to see the huge problem.
Maybe the industry needs to change the name of the bikes designed for 5'6" and under people.
Many of today's women's bikes are coming stock with REALLY short stems. This is a marketing move so they can show off a very short cockpit. It has NOTHING to do with the way a bike SHOULD be set up.
My customers frequently ask for a larger size to get a more appropriate cockpit length. Often the better fit solution is to take the silly 60mm stem off and replace it with an 80 or 90.
What we try to do is ride both sizes then take the cockpit length off the larger bike and "build it into" the smaller bike.
I understand why your buttons are getting pushed, but I also sense that you fully understand how WSD bikes are getting marketed and know how to look past the marketing hype to help your female customers get the best fit. That's awesome and I truly applaud you for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seajay
But not every bike shop owner/LBS saleperson gets this. Instead, they buy all the marketing hook, line and sinker. They're either not adequately trained or lack the incentive to help their customers look past the marketing so that they get the right bike. Instead, they just repeat whatever the bike rep told them as selling points for the bike. And the customer, in turn, who walks into the store trusting that they're going to get helpful advice from the owner/salesperson, often doesn't know enough to challenge what they're hearing. I've heard some variation of that theme too many times--either here on TE or in person at my own local shops.
I agree with you that a lot more women are riding and happily riding, so there has been progress and I'm not implying that the whole industry sucks, but there is room for improvement. I'm okay with the WSD label, so long as shops appreciate that it's just a starting place in a dialogue with a female rider. In other words, we need more shop owners like you!
I've noticed that certain bike manufacturers have been doing that. Super-short stem so it looks shorter, but with really long top tubes that I suspect are no different from the men's frames.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seajay
Certain bike shops have told me that the differences between unisex and "women's" road bikes tend to be more marked in the smaller sizes. Don't know how true that is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jusdooit
Exactly, Mimi! I am one of those women, who sort of ended up riding "with the boys" by accident. I LOVE to ride my bike, and I ride A LOT. I am also competitive, and in the region I live, need to train reasonably hard to maintain my fitness through a very long race season. I am often out on my DH's advertised "Left for dead" rides, trying to keep up with the guys - it's GREAT training for me. The other reason I go? I have LOTS of female riding friends who aren't at the same level for lots of reasons - I love to ride with them too! I have fun riding regardless of pace or ability, and work VERY hard to mentor other female riders, and to share the passion that I have for the sport.Quote:
Originally Posted by Biciclista
My frustration comes in when those same women don't want to ride with me because they are "too slow", "not fit enough", etc. Despite my welcoming stance, and the fact that I do actually play nicely with others, I am often left to just ride with the boys instead. Frustrating on many levels.
I JUST WANT TO RIDE MY BIKE, and I don't care! Unfortunately, not everyone gets this.
This makes me nuts. I am 5'10" and get steered towards WSD in shops. I don't fit WSD anything. Unfortunately many shop employees look at a female customer and instinctively point her in that direction. It's great that there are so many options available for women in the sport, but education around what FITS, vs. what the marketing hype is about would go a long way.Quote:
Originally Posted by indysteel
SheFly
* Normally if a woman comes in and wants a road bike, I start with the WSD frames, but I will certainly try them on unisex frames if it looks like the WSD doesn't fit.Quote:
Originally Posted by SheFly
I think it works the other way around too, especially with women just getting into it. I hear "I need a women's road bike" from someone who looks like she'd have better luck with the unisex frames quite a bit. I'll show them the women's stuff, of course, and then try to persuade them that they look cramped and perhaps suggest that they try a unisex frame. It doesn't always work. :rolleyes:
I don't know if it's the paint scheme ("But I want the fun colors!") or an ingrained preference for the "appropriately-gendered" item (and marketing playing on that), or what.
You do realize that maybe the best bike is NOT a WSD. I bought a Felt F-5 (They do NOT make the F series is WSD to begin with). This bike fits me perfectly. I've tested both the Lexa and the Dolce and they do NOT work. They are way to cramped of a feeling and NOT comfortable. Do NOT assume that someone must have a WSD because they are a women. Geometry is what should determine what someone needs. Granted most unisex/men's bikes do NOT come in a small enough size for me to even look at. WSD bikes assume that women have long legs, short torso/arm reach and narrow shoulders. I am exactly the opposite in all three, I have short legs, longer torso/arm reach AND have broader shoulders. I don't have an issue with the WSD lable, just don't expect all women to be able to ride one. Also don't expect all women to even want the colors that are in the WSD bikes. On the other hand my crusier and mountain bike are WSD frames and they fit fine, but for road bikes the WSD frames do NOT work at all. Just like women's shirts typically do not work at all. My shoulders are too broad. If I can find a shirt to fit my shoulders, it WAY too big everywhere else, so I go for men's clothing as they actually fit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seajay
Also need to add that not everyone can even ride all different brands of bikes. My husband made a big mistaken when he bought his first road bike. It never fit him correctly no matter what was done to it. We even dragged it halfway across the state to our old LBS (whom we trust) and they tried everything different stems, seats, seatposts, and some of things, and could not get him comfortable on that bike no matter what we did. He ended up selling it and got a Felt F-5 (larger size than mine) and it fits him great. Only a few minor fitting tweaks and he's very comfortable on it.
All good and correct points. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Koronin
Lots of great points brought up in this thread. There are some really experienced riders on TE.
Yeah - I can certainly see that as well, based on marketing. Good point Owlie! I forget about that power since I try not to buy into it (and it doesn't work for me anyway) :D. I'm glad to hear that you try to find the RIGHT bike that FITS, regardless of the target market for the bike itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Owlie
SheFly
uh, Seajay, don't argue with me about height, read the statistics: I didn't make it up
http://www.disabled-world.com/artman...ht-chart.shtml
Thanks, SheFly! I do try. :)
And then of course there are the taller women who DO need WSD frames (like the woman who came in to the shop the other day looking for a road bike who was 5'9" with a short torso and short arms), and there's not much out there for them either. I think Trek and Specialized go past a 54 in WSD, and maybe Fuji does too, but no one ever gets those sizes. I did try to see if she could manage a men's frame in one size smaller, but then the saddle-to-bar drop would have been too steep. (She didn't like the color, either. Just as well.)
I think we can all agree that geometry and the individual's build determines what we should ride, regardless of label. I just wish bike shop employees (as a whole) were better educated on the matter, but I think many of them either drink the marketing kool-aid, just get lazy, or are male and have no clue because most of what's on the shop floor will work for them, or some combination of the above. I do love where I work, because there are four women who work there and we each have different fit needs--one NEEDS a WSD road frame (though she's fine with unisex mountain bikes), two of us can ride either as long as we get the measurements right (and we're different heights), and one who absolutely can't ride WSD frames at all, so we have real-life examples if need be.
SheFly, can I come ride with you? (I'm slow, and doubly so on my cross bike, just as a warning. ;)) I'm the slowpoke in the group I ride with, and although most of the time they're good about matching my pace or pushing me just a little bit, I feel bad for slowing them down, so I ride alone much of the time. I'm in awe of the women who ride with the fast group of guys, and I can see how that would be intimidating to the average woman, but let them ride their ride and you ride yours. (I know it's easier said than done. Been there.)
Of course, where I work, we tried to make the shop rides more...beginner-friendly, I guess. Less for hammerheads-only. And then no one turned up. I tried to see if they'd be willing to do a beginner-friendly bike path ride separately, but to no avail.
Um, no. 64" is 5'-4", not 5'-3".Quote:
Originally Posted by Seajay
I suspect that WSD bikes might have been created at that urging of shop owners who got tired of having to swap out wide handlebars for narrow, long stems for short, and of course shim the brake levers for smaller hands. It's easier if the bike already comes with those changes made, and many women actually do need those changes. For those who don't, there are unisex bikes. Many shops will have them in stock, unbuilt. Not every bike is out on the shop floor.
(I have to say, I love the modern style of stem. I'm a short-torso woman (5'-8") who has always had to swap to a shorter stem. In older road bikes with quill stems, it took more than an hour. With my new road bike, purchased last year, it took about 5 minutes.)
As for shops being welcoming or not, my biggest peeve is when they assume that I'm a newbie simply because I'm female. All the sales clerks have to do is ask a few questions to determine my level of experience (riding longer than some of them have been alive). I think the least welcoming shop I've ever been in was in Vancouver somewhere. Despite the fact that I was the one actually walking around examining the bikes, they only talked to my husband and ignored me completely.