Is $270 A Reasonable Fine For Bicycling Through Red Light?

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Originally Posted by Eden

Well then..... that sounds rather unfair.......

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Eden, the problem is that cyclists do laps at speed when Central Park is very, very crowded. They travel in packs and they yell at pedestrians.

Is it fair that a child learning to ride his bike with training wheels has to put up with this? Remember, in the city, he has nowhere else to ride.

Is it fair that an elderly woman with an oxygen bottle and a rolling walker has to cross the street in fear of groups of cyclists going 20+ mph?

Is it fair that ordinary cyclists like me have no choice but to cycle past the aforementioned woman, because there is nothing I can do to help her? Even if I come to a dead stop for 20 minutes, the road is wide and it won't matter. There could be a speeding pack bearing down on her, and I can't stop them.

Is it fair that a few cyclists who want to train can inflict annoyance and anxiety on literally hundreds of people?

With hills, curves and crowds on the street, you can't see them coming, even if you know they might be there. And tourists, of course, don't know to watch for them.

Ironically, it was reading this forum that turned me against the Central Park cyclists. How many threads are there pointing out that it isn't safe for a cyclist going fast to stop?

I'd never thought about that since I don't go very fast. But now that I know, my question is: what are these people doing in a crowded urban park at 2 pm on a sunny Sunday afternoon?

As I stated earlier, I don't know what the answer is, but the situation as it existed was untenable. I do hope that something can be worked out to give cyclists more freedom during the early morning hours. That would be a reasonable accommodation.

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Originally Posted by PamNY

Eden, the problem is that cyclists do laps at speed when Central Park is very, very crowded. They travel in packs and they yell at pedestrians.

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Not all cyclists in "spandex" who ride in CP do this. In my experience most don't. Just because I'm on a road bike and wear lycra-infused clothing doesn't make me a danger to old people and toddlers.

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Originally Posted by PamNY

Is it fair that a child learning to ride his bike with training wheels has to put up with this? Remember, in the city, he has nowhere else to ride.

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How about the numerous, wide, paved walking pathways all throughout the park? Cyclists are the ones who have no where else to ride. We must stay on the roadway, especially in CP.

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Originally Posted by PamNY

what are these people doing in a crowded urban park at 2 pm on a sunny Sunday afternoon?

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Living in their own, self-absorbed world, unfortunately.

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Originally Posted by PamNY

I do hope that something can be worked out to give cyclists more freedom during the early morning hours. That would be a reasonable accommodation.

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Agreed.

One of the suggestions at the meeting was about educating everyone, cyclists, tourists, pedestrians, bladers and skateboarders on the basic rules of the park and how to use it safely. Everyone agreed on this, even the CP Precinct Captain.

ccnyc- cycling safely in spandex:)

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Originally Posted by ccnyc

Not all cyclists in "spandex" who ride in CP do this. In my experience most don't. Just because I'm on a road bike and wear lycra-infused clothing doesn't make me a danger to old people and toddlers.

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I never said a word about Spandex. I did mention speeds in excess of 20 mph -- not sure why that would inspire you to discuss your attire.

Anyway, it doesn't matter if "most don't" cause trouble. The fact is that some do, and they are a problem.

I don't doubt that you are a safe cyclist. I am a safe cyclist, too, but I am willing to acknowledge that cyclists cause a lot of problems in Central Park. Law enforcement cannot base their decisions entirely on you and me.

Central Park paths are clearly marked "No bicycles." Are the rules different for children on smaller bikes, as is the case on sidewalks? I don't know.

Even if children are allowed on paths, they have as much right to the roadway as you do. Cyclists talk a lot about laws aimed at protecting "vulnerable users." Shouldn't we be equally concerned with protecting people who are vulnerable to us?

If Wishnia figures out a way to educate tourists, I certainly hope they ship him downtown.

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Originally Posted by PamNY

I never said a word about Spandex. I did mention speeds in excess of 20 mph -- not sure why that would inspire you to discuss your attire.

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It's never a good idea to assume anything (and I wish I hadn't :)), but the cyclists I thought you were referring to tend to be riding road bikes and wearing the spandex/lycra type of clothing.

CC - I quoted the statement about spandex clad cyclists, so technically Pam's response was aimed at that....

Pam - I find you verge on the hysterical on this subject.... I obviously haven't witnessed any of this first hand, being several thousand miles away, but the statistics I've seen indicate NYC has an average of 1 serious bike/ped incident per year (motor vehicles take 250 each year). Should even that one happen, no, but is it an raging epidemic that needs a serious crack down..... eh... probably not.

Eden, I am indeed in the verge of hysterical, and proud to be there. How else could I respond to people who don't understand that going 20+ mph in a very crowded area is a bad idea?

And you want me to pretend the problem is their clothing?

It's almost hard to figure out how to respond to that as it has little to nothing to do with why I made my original comment.....

They are on the road no.... the speed limit isn't under 20 is it.....

The actual subject I was talking about, is whether or not there should be a huge crack down on red light runners.....

My comment was about whether nor not *bias* to ticketing a certain type of cyclist for doing the same thing other types of cyclists and motorist do is fair or not (which is certainly is not - crack down on everyone or no one!).....

The compromise posted by CC seems entirely reasonable to me and still allows for red lights when someone presses the crosswalk button.....

Pam - for me your wild hysterical ranting tangents don't help your case.... they make me discount you as a bit overwrought and exaggerating about the raving, wild packs of crazed racers who are running down little old ladies in the park.... I'm sure the case is somewhere in the middle -I'm sure there are problems and yes I've encountered some real jerks going too fast in crowded places too, but its not like people are mowed down all the time either.....

Not to worry, Eden. This is just a typical New York conversation. We have 1,600,000 people living in a land area of 23 square miles. Conflict is to be expected. I will, however, dial myself back for this group.

It's possible that some good will come of all this in the form of better auto enforcement; of course, I won't be happy till private cars are severely restricted in Manhattan, and Central Park is entirely car-free. But I'd settle for better enforcement of the speed limit.

Ccnyc, I strongly encourage you not to mention this Spandex business outside the cycling community.

Birders are gleeful over the crackdown in CP; cyclists have been getting on their nerves for years, and they are a cranky bunch. Last night I presented the theory that the issue isn't speeding cyclists at all, but rather that NYPD has mobilized itself to rid the park of Pearl Izumi. People were doubled over laughing. The comic potential is so great I almost felt bad about using it (but not quite:p),

The “Flashing Yellow Light” bill of City Council Members Rodriguez and Gentile has been submitted for introduction at the next City Council meeting this coming Wednesday, March 23.
The steps of City Hall have been reserved for a Press Conference at 1:00pm (sharp).
The bill's sponsors have asked us to be there in the largest numbers we can possibly muster.
If you at all can, your presence will be valuable.
Arrive at 12:45pm on Wednesday so the conference can begin at 1:00 pm.
The council meeting itself begins at 1:30....so it'll be short.

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/blogs/go-h...blic-Safety-Is...
NBC News Excerpt citing Bicycling magazine's Bob Mionske:
"And when it comes to the most serious consequence of breaking traffic laws -- deaths -- cyclists, Mionske argues, bear hardly any responsibility. While 18 of the 269 people killed in crashes in New York City last year were cyclists, no figure could be provided on how many of the total deaths could actually be blamed on cyclists because they were "so insignificant a factor."
Everyone has a duty to observe the traffic laws. They are an essential component of public safety and should be enforced. But what’s happening in New York is different—the traffic laws are being strictly enforced against cyclists, while pedestrians and motorists get a pass to continue to ignore the traffic laws."

Bob Mionske"s blog
http://bicycling.com/blogs/roadright...-bicycle-wars/

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...961765660.html
Ticketed Cyclists Were Within the Speed Limit
By TOM PERROTTA

It turns out that nine of 10 cyclists who received speeding tickets in Central Park Tuesday morning are in luck: NYPD officers ticketed them for the wrong speed limit.

Early Tuesday morning, before the West Drive of the park loop was opened to cars, 10 bikers were pulled over for riding faster than 15 mph.

The official limit, according to the Central Park Conservancy's website, is 25 mph. ...

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/24/ny...ef=todayspaper
Parks Dept. Disavows a Speed Limit for Bicycles
By JOSEPH GOLDSTEIN
Published: March 23, 2011

On Tuesday morning, police officers aimed a radar gun at West Drive in Central Park, hoping to catch bicyclists going too fast. Instead they exposed a city bureaucracy bungling the enforcement of one of the simplest of laws: the speed limit.

It was not enough that the Police Department sent officers on Tuesday night to the homes of most of the 10 cyclists given tickets to revoke the citations and apologize, a rarity, to be sure. On Wednesday, the Department of Parks and Recreation disavowed the 15 mile-per-hour speed limit for cyclists that it announced two decades ago and which is posted in small print on signs found in Central Park. ...

I saw two cyclists stopped at red lights on the greenway yesterday (around 14th and 34th).

Since this never, ever happens and there wasn't any traffic, I assume there might be some enforcement going on. I've seen no increase in cyclists yielding to pedestrians at crosswalks on the greenway.

As far as I can tell (I live downtown), it's still perfectly okay to salmon past City Hall and One Police Plaza.

http://www.nycc.org/message-board/cy...est-side/50745

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Originally Posted by ccnyc

http://www.nycc.org/message-board/cy...est-side/50745

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I've been following that, and it is indeed scary -- unless there's more to it that explains the police response. So far, the incident hasn't been mentioned in Streetsblog or Gothamist.