Hogging the road

I couldn't say it any better than jobob did.

I'd add that I don't know what difference it makes to an automobile driver whether she's doing hill repeats or just passing through. Unless the motorist is ALSO doing hill repeats, they'll encounter her exactly once.

As far as it being a private road ... that's a tough one. Our group does a couple of loops through gated communities. Although I don't join them for it, they do sprint intervals there one day a week. I would hate to see the relationship get confrontational. Because the low traffic density means they tend to be the safest place to ride.

Seems like this kinda went from the OP more or less venting about an experience to 4 wheels bad, 2 wheels good.

I don't believe the OP was saying the cyclist should ride way to the right and I do not believe the OP was saying the cyclist should not be taking the lane.

I see the whole issue as not so much about legalities, but more about what does it mean to share the road.

Does sharing the road mean "I have a legal right to be here so the heck with anyone else around me"?

Here's what I think it means to me and is how I share the road. (Note: Your mileage and experience may vary, and that's cool, cuz you aren't me, you are you)

I am a car and bike person. I have sat in traffic in both. Sharing the road means not just with different road users, but also same (car and car, bike and bike). Sharing is not just about bikes and cars. This morning I rode in, it was dark, along a neighborhood bikeway. Two other cyclists were just ahead. I could see a pedestrian waiting to cross. The two cyclists went by, I slowed and waved the pedestrian to cross and she called out, "thank you."

Legally I could just zoom by, I chose to let the pedestrian cross - sharing the space we were in.

I've waved cars on when on my bike. I've waved bikes on when in my car (even though legally I was not required to do so). I've been waved on by peds and bikes, in my car. I stop where safe to let others cross the road (for both peds and bikes).

I really think it is about sharing, being aware of who is around you, making choices. I won't always like others' choices, but I do not have control over them. Again, seems to have less to do with who is in what vehicle and who has what legal right, but rather about not liking another's choice when it seems to negatively impact us.

I understand the OP's frustration. I've had that with other road users. My frustration was not about whether the other had legal rights to be on the road, more about "I wish they could see they are doing under the speed limit and building a line of cars behind them, can't they pull over for a bit to let some of us by?"

Anyway, just saying ...:D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by radacrider

Seems like this kinda went from the OP more or less venting about an experience to 4 wheels bad, 2 wheels good.

---

Well. That sure simplifies it.

Here's another very simple way to look at it:

What matters more to you ...
a few moments out of your apparently busy busy busy day, or,
someone else's lifetime?

Hmm?

This thread saddens me so.

Next time I'm going down a hill I'll probably start to wonder yet again if the person behind me is getting his or her panties in a knot on account of my existence (yes, I still do that to this day, old habits die hard!), but now, even worse, I'll wonder if its a TE'er.

And I'll probably be even more likely to try to slow down and try to move over to the right to accommodate that person -- which, after all, is what the OP says I should be doing -- because, deep down, I still don't ever want to be in anyone's way. Even after all the crap I went through.

It wouldn't be safe for me to do that, and it would be downright stupid for me to do that, but, there you go.

JObob
read your first post in this thread and Ignore the other stuff. YOU are doing the right thing.

{{Mimi}}

Well, this is not a comment on the particular situation (riding in the lane or to the side), but rather a thought that I think the OP was surprised that she had such a reaction to another cyclist and feels guilty. I identify with that, because it's happened to me. Mostly when the person (or group) is doing something blatantly impolite or illegal, but still, I feel badly that I am annoyed at a cyclist.
I am a timid descender, so I can see why some people would think it was safer to move right. I am pretty comfortable taking the lane anywhere, so if it's a curvy descent, you can be sure I will be out in the lane, because at least the drivers can see me. Since I probably will not be going over 30, the cars might get pissed, but I don't care. Most of the hills around here are not that long, so it's just a few seconds. This happens routinely on Strawberry Hill Rd., a major cut through street for both cars and cyclists, including big group rides. My street is off of this street and I have had to wait both going up and down the hill, if I am driving behind a cyclist. It's curvy and narrow and I won't put anyone's safety in danger.
The one time I did get really annoyed (yes, I wanted to *move*) was when a group stopped at the top of the hill at the stop sign and didn't signal, obviously didn't have good communication about which way the ride was going, and none of the riders were willing to put a foot down. They stood there, doing a track stand, looking like "where should I go?" I just waited, since it's a very busy and somewhat obstructed view intersection. The riders all started going in different directions! Good thing I waited longer than usual, because it took awhile for the ones who went the wrong way to turn around and continue on their way.
I just don't drive that way anymore on Saturday or Sunday mornings.

Jo, I'll bring my train whistle next time we ride and blow it at you. :D

It so goes against my nature, but I'm really working this year on being less judgemental of others. It's so easy to think, "Well, that's not what I would do." That's what really struck me in the original post.

She wondered why the bicyclist might have been doing what she was doing because the OP would not have ridden that road. Lots of rational reasons were given for the bicyclist's behavior. But none seemed acceptable to the OP.

Just because you would not do it, does not make it unsafe for someone else.

Jo, keep takin' the freakin' lane. I like your company.

Veronica

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cataboo

I understand why people take the lane during a descent - and I typically stay out of the shoulder for descents for all the reasons mentioned.

However, this is not someone that's going down the hill and it takes her two minutes to do it and people should just be patient. This is someone that's repeatedly lapping a hill - so cars get to wait when she goes up the hill and cars get to wait when she goes down a hill.

These pullouts are for cars to use or trucks to let faster people pass them going up or down a hill - so we're not expecting her to do anything that a car driving that same stretch of road wouldn't do.

---

This is how I was looking at it, too. Is it safer to take the lane? Yes; but while the cyclist has a right to do so, you can also get a ticket for impeding traffic. Like Cataboo said, the road has pullouts, and they are there for slower moving traffic to use no matter what kind of vehicle they are in/on. There are places I dont ride because, even though I have a right to be there, it's not safe for me to ride there (sure, I can take the lane, but there are places I wouldn't drive a truck with a 5th-wheel trailer on, either). Some people have awesome skills and are fine on a descent at speed - there are many hills I ride where I am going as fast if not faster than vehicle traffic. Some people ride their brakes all the way down and impede traffic - and you can get ticketed for it. What's "safe" isn't always what's "right".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jobob

And I'll probably be even more likely to try to slow down and try to move over to the right to accommodate that person -- which, after all, is what the OP says I should be doing -- because, deep down, I still don't ever want to be in anyone's way. Even after all the crap I went through.

---

I see this as totally different. Almost everyone here has said that they would take the lane when needed to, because it IS safer to be there. But there is a difference in that you aren't doing hill repeats on a private, one lane road, or riding somewhere that may not be the best place in the world for cyclists.

I understand feeling guilty for being annoyed at a cyclist, too. But usually, I'm irritated at those jerks that give the rest of us a bad name like those who run red lights or ride on the wrong side of the path/street.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jobob

This thread saddens me so.

Next time I'm going down a hill I'll probably start to wonder yet again if the person behind me is getting his or her panties in a knot on account of my existence (yes, I still do that to this day, old habits die hard!), but now, even worse, I'll wonder if its a TE'er.

And I'll probably be even more likely to try to slow down and try to move over to the right to accommodate that person -- which, after all, is what the OP says I should be doing -- because, deep down, I still don't ever want to be in anyone's way. Even after all the crap I went through.

It wouldn't be safe for me to do that, and it would be downright stupid for me to do that, but, there you go.

---

Jobob! This post saddens me :( I know it's difficult to sometimes stand up and do what you feel is right in a situation, when you know others may get upset about it. But really, do what you feel is right and have experienced to be safer. Let people judge you, who cares? You can't spend your entire days thinking about what others are thinking about what you do, or you'll start to feel unhappy. I spent a long time doing the same thing, and even sometimes now find myself in those bad habits. The truth is though, that you need to live each day for yourself, not just in riding, in everything. The people who really know you and understand you will accept you, and those that like to judge people will be miserable. Be confident and focused on your own happiness :) Okay, okay that's enough motivational speaking for the day!

P.S. - You have just as much right to exist in this world as anyone else, don't let anyone feel like their needs are more important than your own. Okay, now I'm really done:)

Another point is that maybe it's not always that important to do the right thing. I don't mean purposely doing the wrong thing, like endangering someone, but just letting it go and not making a moral issue out of a small situation that doesn't deserve it. Maybe the cyclist ahead of you isn't paying attention because she's upset about something, maybe she's in a huge hurry, maybe she's a newbie, maybe she's training for the ride of her life, maybe it just doesn't matter. Maybe the driver behind you looking exasperated is pissed off about something else, maybe she's met a dozen stupid cyclists on the way and you happen to be nr 13, maybe she's an insecure driver with her shoulders up around her ears and low tolerance for anything new.

Lord knows, I can be as judgmental and then some as the next person, but in traffic I really try to just not get so involved. Most of the time we just have to wing it as best we can, and sometimes people just make bad choices and have to muddle through.

Like others have expressed, I'm concerned that featuretile feels the need to defend herself. I think that the lively debate is evidence that this is a worthy post / discussion.

In my role as an officer for the local club, I'm writing an OpEd piece for the newspaper. The purpose is to affirm the rights of cyclist to safe enjoyment of the rode...but it also challenges cyclists to remember that everything that is permissible is not necessarily beneficial (example: Indiana law allows riding two abreast, but there are many situations where that is either RUDE or UNSAFE or BOTH)

It probably is worth repeating here: The League of American Cyclists was founded about 10 years before the first cars were invented... Because "wheelmen" were challenged by rutted roads of gravel and dirt and faced antagonism from horsemen, wagon drivers, and pedestrians...ergo: roads are an ancient invention that weren't built just for cars

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by featuretile

I thought that what I was saying would promote people being more courteous to each other (both car and bike). I did not expect that so many people would think that what she does is correct.

---

They didn't pay attention to what you actually said, or to the conditions you described. Let's hope they are more observant when biking.

I think only one person addressed the actual issue -- which was the safety of the cyclist pulling into a turnout. Most people assumed you wanted the cyclist to ride on the side of the road during a fast descent, which you didn't say at all.

I agree that being courteous when you can do so safely is a good idea. I do it all the time -- as a car driver, pedestrian, Xootr rider, and cyclist.

I honestly don't feel like pulling any punches on this topic....

I think the OP started this whole topic hostilely by titling it "Hogging the Road" in the first place.....

I think that she probably instantly alienated the rider by suggesting that the road was unsafe to ride on in the first place - I personally would find it condescending to me if someone suggested I ride someplace "nicer" when I'm doing hill repeats.....

What really worked me up though was that the OP then tried to justify her desire for the rider to move out of her way by saying it would be more safe - which I'm calling complete BS on. If you truly cared about the safety of the cyclist you would just let her be rather than expecting her to move to allow you to get around. Do you really think its that easy to just pull over or stop on a 15% down grade - no so much.... just trying to dismount your bike while pitched forward like that can cause a person to slide and fall (especially on slippery cleats).

Debate whether she should be on your private road all you want to, but don't even try to pass off your not wanting to wait behind her as somehow caring about her safety. If you actually cared, you wouldn't have minded waiting in the first place and you wouldn't have started this thread...

Jobob - *never* feel guilt about doing what you need to, to be safe. One way or the other one of you (you or the driver) is ultimately "selfish" - but I think it is waaaaaaaaaaay more justifiable for you to be selfish with your health and welfare than it is for the motorist to be selfish with a few seconds of his/her time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eden

What really worked me up though was that the OP then tried to justify her desire for the rider to move out of her way by saying it would be more safe - which I'm calling complete BS on. If you truly cared about the safety of the cyclist you would just let her be rather than expecting her to move to allow you to get around. Do you really think its that easy to just pull over or stop on a 15% down grade - no so much.... just trying to dismount your bike while pitched forward like that can cause a person to slide and fall (especially on slippery cleats)..

---

I don't actually know what the challenges of biking in the situation would be -- that's one reason I was disappointed the topic went the way it did. I love reading about biking in conditions different from what I experience -- it's educational.

Many of the dangers noted as being perilous for someone riding toward the edge of the road (animals running into the road, for example) would be easier to handle without a car behind you. If it's a lightly traveled road and pulling over meant I'd be free of a trailing car for a while, then I might definitely feel that pulling over would be slightly safer and therefore desirable.