Building Cadence.....

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Originally Posted by OakLeaf

As I said, my natural cycling cadence all my life has been around 85-87, and I'm pretty sure my natural running cadence is even a little higher than that.** You'd still have a hard time convincing me that I'm predominantly fast-twitch.

I've never, ever been fast. In high school we didn't have XC, but I ran the mile (longest distance we had) much better than I did the shorter distances. In a recent 10-mile event - that I wasn't actually racing, but just entered for practice - I kicked the last mile or so just about 20 sec/mile slower than my PR 5K.

In cycling, my best event was the 40K ITT.

In weight lifting, I do tend to be strong for my size and sex, but I think it has more to do with the fact that I put on muscle more easily than a lot of women. Pound for pound of lean mass, really it seems to me that my 1RM's ought to be higher than they are.

You really think based on my cadences alone that I should be predominantly fast-twitch???


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** (That's based on old-fashioned timing and counting - I usually get right around 95. I'm totally coveting a footpod for my new GPS watch, solely for cadence since I do not do treadmills, but haven't found one in stock anywhere yet.)

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No. Did someone say that?
You sound like a pretty classic slow-twitch to me.
Low-side cadence on the bike, mile runnner, lots of oomph left at the end of a long run.

The cool thing is you already know your natural cadence, so all the angsting over rpms is long gone for you.

I don't know how to emphasize this enough: Everyone Is Different. Everyone Has Their Own Unique Best Cadence.

If a person is happily riding along at (for example) 85-87 rpm, don't feel you have to change it up to 95-100 just because someone says that's better, or you think you are fast twitch and have to be just like another fast-twitch. Don't look at someone else's cadence that might be even lower and start thinking you have to slow yours down to match theirs just because they run like you do.

Ride your ride.

Play with cadence until you find your sweet spot. Be your own expert.

"Fast twitch" and "slow twitch" aren't cliques in high school that you have to join one or the other. It's a concept that helps to explain why some folks seem quite happy riding at rpms that would kill someone else. A concept that is meant to explain why "one size fits all" doesn't work on the bike, and why no-one should feel they are a bad rider or an inexperienced rider just because of their rpms.

There is no black and white in fast and slow. No dividing line. It's a gradation of grays.

I've said it before: I worked on some very cool research with Dr. Haushka on the embryological development of fast and slow twitch fibers back in the 1980's. It is fascinating stuff, and I encourage anyone interested in it to look up some of the original research. Your proportion of fast to slow in your muscles is as unique as your fingerprints. Find your sweet spot and ride!

Ok trying to sort this out in my feeble brain. I have a higher cadence in smaller gears, but less speed. If ride 20 miles, avg speed is 13-13.5. Bigger gears equal lower cadence, but more speed, avg 14-14.5. So the ideal for speed is to be able to maintain the cadence from my smaller gears while pushing a big gear.
I'm asking because I have a hill that I typically end up in my smallest granny gear by the time I get to the top with my speed dropping to 7.5 or 8. Last week I was determined to stay in my big chain (have a double) all the way to the top. I did end up cross chaining some, but made it with a speed of about 10.0. I had to force myself to maintain a higher than average cadence for me in a big gear, but it improved my speed.
Is my logic correct?

A lot depends on your goal. In training there may be advantages at times to pushing a big gear. Think of it as weight lifting on a bike. Whether you're normally a sit and spin gal or you just tend to use a big gear sometimes it's good to climb a harder hill in a lower gear or accelerate in a lower gear .... you get my drift. I've heard this called and "under speed drill"?

OTOH if you just tend to use lower RPM and/or bigger gears that is fine but learning to spin a bit has advantages from range of motion, acceleration, just using different muscles, bike handling and so on.

A lot has been made of spinning always especially in recent years with Lance's style of high RPM in all kinds of racing. It may feel like it's the law you must be high RPM always.

I'm sure if you're a marathon runner you'd work on sprinting, if you're a sprinter you'd work on endurance. But you'd still tend to be either a distance or sprint runner. :cool: I think of it like that.

I would love to hear what KnottedYet has to say about this... poking about with actual muscle fibers is awesome!

But I think people are overestimating the importance of muscle twitch fibers. Most people are born with about a 50/50 ratio; it is the top-level athletes that have very skewed proportions... up to 80/20.

There is actually a whole gradation of muscle fiber types... but these are lumped into slow twitch and fast twitch, with a further split in fast twitch. As might be expected by the names... fast twitch contract rapidly, slow twitch more a slow and steady ratcheting. If you pick up a baby, that is fast twitch. Holding the baby is slow twitch.

I - slow twitch fibers -- exclusively aerobic, need oxygen. Endurance fibers.
IIa - fast twitch a -- use both aerobic and anaerobic pathways equally well, but still contract rapidly.
IIb - fast twitch b -- use anaerobic pathways (no oxygen) exclusively; best for short sprints. In the 50 to 100 yard dash, athletes do not need to breathe at all, and some don't!

The IIa is where it gets interesting. You can train these muscle fibers to be more efficient at aerobic use -- by increasing the number of mitochondria (and in general increasing number of capillaries to the muscle). Mitochondria are the "powerhouses" of the cell, where glycogen (glucose molecules) is turned into ATP (adenosine triphosphate - the typical energy "currency" of the cell.) IIa fibers are also sometimes called "switch" fibers because depending on training, you can run these fibers equally well with oxygen or without. So IIa fibers will still contract rapidly, but you can use them much longer without fatigue, since you are using the aerobic pathway. Another way of stating this: if you are training to raise your lactate threshold, you are training your IIa fibers to better utilize oxygen / use the aerobic pathway.

I suspect that cadence is going to be a function of a lot of the body's systems, not just muscle fiber ratios... while they are individual at a fine scale for each person (by both nature and nurture), for the "average" person the ratios are roughly the same. (Though one can argue whether even non-competitive people self-selecting for a sport, or even interested in sports at all, are "average"!).

VO2 max -- the body's ability to utilize oxygen -- is another important factor. I suspect this might even be more important than actual muscle fiber composition for cadence... Lance Armstrong has an extremely high VO2 max, the highest in cycling and as high as most competitive Nordic skiiers (which requires the most oxygen use) -- 81 mL / m / kg (Utilizes 81 milliliters of oxygen per minute, per kilogram of body weight). Women have a lower VO2 max then men; the top women skiiers are typically in the high 70s. This is partly due to typically lower lean mass and higher body fat percentage; even correcting for kg of lean body mass (or just muscle mass), women are still lower. This is likely because our hearts are smaller and even at their most efficient will have a lower stoke volume (amount of blood transported in one heartbeat).

There is a genetic ceiling for each person with respect to max VO2, though unless you are a competitive athlete with serious training, we don't usually reach this. (The ability to rapidly increase max VO2 is partly genetic and partly training type, which is why an experienced coach is invaluable at helping to efficiently train to your genetic potential; in comparison training to raise lactate threshold is fairly standard.) As far as the limiting factors on utilizing oxygen, there is a debate about oxygen transport (cardiovascular system) vs. utilization (ability of mitochondria to use delivered oxygen). I fall on the side of transport limitations, because heuristically it makes sense that women's VO2 max is lower (scaled by muscle mass) because our heart and blood volume is proportionally less than in men, rather than we suck at growing capillaries and mitochondria, which should not be gender specific!

As a side note: the limiting factor is *not* lung capacity or oxygen-carbon dioxide gas exchange in the lungs; sedentary asthmatics are limited by these, but 4-6 weeks of 1 hour low-intensity exercise 5x/week or 30 minutes of moderate-intense activity 3x/week will increase VO2 max to equal that of a control group. This is because asthmatics can rapidly increase lung capacity through exercise (gas exchange efficiency is only slowly or not reversible, since it involves scarring in the lungs... as an asthmatic, I am happy that it is not a limiting factor though!). Exercise does not reduce intensity or severity of asthmatic reactions, which was originally a hope. But it does rapidly lead to a better quality of life after a short period of discomfort.

Heart rate and stoke volume (pumping volume) are part of the VO2 max metric. Raising lactate threshold (essentially the body's capacity to utilize oxygen / run systems aerobically) is part of training the "switch" IIa fast fibers to better utilize oxygen. As a cyclist improves max VO2 and raises her lactate threshold, she will generate more power, and should be more comfortable in a higher cadence if she trains that way. (It is also quite possible to generate more force at lower cadences... I really don't have a sense of how much influence Lance's fast spinning has as a cycling trend, vs. how much it is always more efficient to have a fast cadence. Michael Phelps' swimming style does seem to be a genuine innovation worthy of emulating in swimming; I really don't have a sense of how important Lance's fast cadence is to cycling. Guess I should finish the books on cycling physics. :) ) Muscle fatigue should be lower for higher cadences... which would be opposite as far as distance cycling = slow twitch fibers if high cadences = fast twitch fibers (lower fatigue / longer distances). Maybe that is part of the equalizing factor leading to a wide range of people cycling?

One last comment: muscle strength depends on a lot of factors; it is possible to significantly increase muscle strength, at least up to a point, without increasing muscle *size* - hypertrophy. One of the biggest limiting factors in strength is actually tendon and bone strength (there is a "tension meter," the golgi apparatus, built in to every tendon to help your brain limit your muscle fibers to acceptable rate / force of contraction -- in times of great stress, such as lifting a car from a spouse, your brain will override this tension limitation, though it really messes up your muscles / tendons / ligaments / bones.) Conversely, you can build up size without increasing functional strength that much (extreme bodybuilding / muscle isolation is the culprit in this!). Hypertrophy = increasing muscle fiber thickness; this happens almost exclusively in fast twitch fibers. Some animals also produce new muscle fibers; but either humans do not, or do it so slowly the effect is negligible.

@Oakleaf -- I'll take up more on heartrate later in a new thread. The short answer is that the Garmin is just using a formula 220-age if you do not set your max heart rate manually; so you haven't necessarily dropped your max heart rate. Your Garmin has no clue what your maximum heart rate actually is, and is just merrily assigning you one and decreasing it every year by rote.

Yeah my head is going to explode.

I'm out.

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Originally Posted by Yelsel

@Oakleaf -- I'll take up more on heartrate later in a new thread. The short answer is that the Garmin is just using a formula 220-age if you do not set your max heart rate manually; so you haven't necessarily dropped your max heart rate. Your Garmin has no clue what your maximum heart rate actually is, and is just merrily assigning you one and decreasing it every year by rote.

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No, it isn't 220-age. You have to do a certain number of all-out anaerobic efforts, and then it calculates your LT based on the point where your speed increases but your HR doesn't any more. I'm giving my max based on the highest I ever see on a hot day on about the fourth or fifth all-out-sprint interval, when I'm deep in oxygen debt but not too fatigued to push as hard as I can. I'm figuring that's my max. I'm not sure how it calculates the start of zone 2, but as I said, both the LT and the start of zone 2 jibe really well with how I feel. There's 95 BPM between my RHR and the start of zone 2, as auto-calculated by the Garmin....

Unless maybe I'm 32 years old and somebody forgot to tell me about the last almost-18 years. :D;)

Yelsel, that was very cool and very well explained!

My fast/slow twitch stuff was a student research project a quarter century ago, and it was all embryological. (basically: what tells a muscle fiber to develop into either a fast or slow twitch?) Dr. Hauschka called my work "elegant," which ended up having a big impact on me as a college student.

I never did any work directly on adult athletes, which would have been a lot of fun. (that's the kind of cool stuff the kineseology majors got to do)

Self-selection is a big factor, and I know I see a lot of it in my patients. But I think there are a lot of folks (especially women) who are getting into sports later in life and never had a chance to self-select. Lack of opportunity being the stronger factor.

How do you know you are a talented cellist if you never had exposure to music? How do you know you are fabulous at time-trials if you never had a bike until you were in your 30's? And it was a comfort bike?

Anyway, I do think the emphasis in all the biking magazines on "the higher the better" in rpms is over the top. Why should a woman feel bad if she's happy at 85 rpm like Oakleaf? What if a woman is slow-twitch (use it as a shorthand for the myriad of factors that make her more efficient at unfashionable rpms) and she never had any high performance athletic training before and so doesn't know her physiology well enough to be confident in her difference?

How many 20-80 women never had the chance?

Someone earlier mentioned riding a cadence of 140 and being able to maintain it. Cool, that's her ability. Call it "fast twitch" for short. It would be just as much nonsense for me to turn to her and say "that's too fast" as it would be for me to turn to Oakleaf or TCTrek's husband and say "that's too slow."

I'm far too interested in the brainwashing "I'm not good enough" aspect, because I see it so much in my patients and because I see it lurking around discussions of rpms. I'm oversensitive to it. It makes me angry. It makes me very angry that women in particular are steam-rollered by it.

There are no magic numbers. Their are YOUR numbers, and as long as you are happy and your body is happy and your bike is happy, there is no need to feel you don't measure up to some magic number some man in some training facility says is right. (not that I'm dissing Andy Pruitt. He's great. But take everything with a grain of salt. EVERYTHING. Because real life isn't one-rpm-fits-all.)

Hello again. It has been very interesting reading the replies. I have an exercise science master's degree (from 18 years ago), and you all made me have to think about all of that again! I don't believe that I fall directly into the either one fast/slow twitch categories by themselves. I ran cross country and track in college (and coached both for 4 years), running the 10,000, 5,000, 3,000, mile, and the 4x400 and 4x800. I also ran a 2:46 marathon but could do short fast workouts with the best of them. So....

Having only recently started biking, I am still trying to figure things out for a sprint duathlon next year. I can figure out the running/training, but the biking is another story. I try and keep my cadence at 70-80 rpm for 20-25 miles as an aerobic base building workout, but the mph are only about 14-15. If I increase the cadence, I have to down shift and often feel like my legs are moving too fast for the pedals. I can hit 90-100 for a period, but the speed drops lower 12-14mph. Which is best for aerobic training completely and does anyone have any good workouts to increase speed a little now and work up to a huge increase later in the spring when racing season starts?

You ladies are awesome!!



"See in yourself not the limits, but the stars..."

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Originally Posted by 246marathon

I can figure out the running/training, but the biking is another story. I try and keep my cadence at 70-80 rpm for 20-25 miles as an aerobic base building workout, but the mph are only about 14-15. If I increase the cadence, I have to down shift and often feel like my legs are moving too fast for the pedals. I can hit 90-100 for a period, but the speed drops lower 12-14mph. Which is best for aerobic training completely and does anyone have any good workouts to increase speed a little now and work up to a huge increase later in the spring when racing season starts?

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Wahine would be the perfect person to answer this question. She does coaching/training as well as rehab. (I only do rehab)

I hope she comes a'wanderin' by!

Remember: fast and slow twitch aren't really separate categories, they are ends of a spectrum. If your speed drops when you raise your rpm to 90-100, I'd be inclined to say that your body just isn't as efficient at higher rpms. How to change that efficiency vs. how to work within the strengths you already have to increase your speed, and which is the better investment, is the kind of question to ask someone like Wahine.

(Yelsel, do you have some info on this?)

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Originally Posted by KnottedYet

Self-selection is a big factor, and I know I see a lot of it in my patients. But I think there are a lot of folks (especially women) who are getting into sports later in life and never had a chance to self-select. Lack of opportunity being the stronger factor.

I'm far too interested in the brainwashing "I'm not good enough" aspect, because I see it so much in my patients and because I see it lurking around discussions of rpms. I'm oversensitive to it. It makes me angry. It makes me very angry that women in particular are steam-rollered by it.

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I definitely hear you here! And it makes me both angry and sad when women preface their questions as "stupid." I'm not going to say there are no stupid questions ("Is this going to be on the test?" is among the top ones -- I've told students the answer is always going to be "Yes"). But people who worry about having stupid questions rarely do.

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Originally Posted by 246marathon

I try and keep my cadence at 70-80 rpm for 20-25 miles as an aerobic base building workout, but the mph are only about 14-15. If I increase the cadence, I have to down shift and often feel like my legs are moving too fast for the pedals. I can hit 90-100 for a period, but the speed drops lower 12-14mph.
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Exactly my experience. The higher cadence / lower gear it feels like I'm moving too fast, not efficient. My goal is to get aerobically fit enough to maintain the 85-90rpm range (which feels pretty good) but with the power/strength I was pushing at 65rpm. Suspect that will both give me speed, but optimize my riding, find my zone. We'll see...but that's my plan/theory.

And thanks to all who have joined in and responded in this thread. Fascinating stuff, from the fast/slow twitch to the heart rate stuff.

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Originally Posted by 246marathon

Having only recently started biking, I am still trying to figure things out for a sprint duathlon next year. I can figure out the running/training, but the biking is another story. I try and keep my cadence at 70-80 rpm for 20-25 miles as an aerobic base building workout, but the mph are only about 14-15. If I increase the cadence, I have to down shift and often feel like my legs are moving too fast for the pedals. I can hit 90-100 for a period, but the speed drops lower 12-14mph. Which is best for aerobic training completely and does anyone have any good workouts to increase speed a little now and work up to a huge increase later in the spring when racing season starts?

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My base building last winter was cut short by a stress fracture... so I didn't get past anything very basic before being out of the game.

I love Joe Friel's training manuals -- it takes a lot of time to read and develop a plan, but you are essentially ending up with a detailed training plan tailored to you for under $20; it takes into account lots of factors such as amount (and distribution) of time to train, age / experience in sport, particular strengths and weaknesses... and also includes cross-training suggestions. Also you work the schedule to incorporate tapers for big "A" races, and utilizing "B" and "C" = less important races as training. The Cyclists' Training Bible is most specific to cycling, but the general heart rate manual is also very good; and it sounds like you could use the Triathlete Training Bible as well.

For the base building portion specifically, there is a great book written by one of Joe Friel's past mentees (so fits in same training methodology) Base Building for Cyclists. Unfortunately I did not get very far in reading / incorporating this before getting sidelined for the season.

For specific workouts, I tend to slot in Coach Troy's Spinervals. (There are specific suggestions for different types of workouts in the Friel methodology... I just find it easier to work to a DVD rather than a timer.) I joined the Coach Troy DVD club and get a DVD up to $35 retail for $22.95 each month (or $35 off a more expensive package, and also 10% off other purchases); the first thing I got was the Base Building series. The "recovery / technique" DVDs also fit well into base building. I also have the "travel" series but again didn't have a chance to use them last winter. I also just got an on-off bike strength Spinerval series that I think will work to use for the aerobic base-building phase -- as well as kettlebells, which is my preferred form of strength training right now.

Base building is not just biking farther and farther at a steady 75% heart rate / race pace. There is also tempo work -- a few heartbeats below the lactic threshold (body gets better at using lactate for a fuel and transporting hydrogen ions; H+ ions are what causes muscle soreness); interval work within the aerobic limits (low to race pace, low to tempo, or race pace to tempo pace); and also biking for a long time at a low heartrate / below 65% -- this is where the body gets more efficient at using fatty acids (aka fat) for a fuel over carbs, which is important for a long race. The books / DVDs above can help with scheduling these different types of base building through the season, and how to gradually transition in true interval, strength, power etc. work towards the end of the off season.

Carmichael just brought out a book on making the most of training 3-6 hours per week -- which to be honest, is all most of us have. And duo/triathletes also need to be very efficient with time. I have not purchased this yet, only given it a brief skim; it appears to be for those that already have a high level of fitness, and rather than base building ramping up to more intense work, there are several cycles of intense work throughout the year. With your base from running this plan might work for you.

I have all this just because I would like to work up to centuries, double centuries, and longer race events just as a participant. As a competitor, you might like to get more feedback from a coach, either locally or through the internet. There are also a lot of "camps" around in the off and shoulder season that could really be beneficial.

And I would love to give more specifics... but my biking / athletic mini-library is currently in brown boxes that are indistinguishable from brown boxes that are holding books for storage for the next year... and it is going to take me awhile to sort through them and find the athletic (and knitting, and unread) books. :(

Thanks ladies for all of your help. It is so nice to get replies that are so useful. I just wanted to add one question. I do understand that I need to increase my cadence to a higher level, but I have a difficult time keeping the speed up because I have to reduce the resistance to get the rpms up to a reasonable level and one that is maintainable. I feel great cranking along at 18 mph, 80 rpms, on a nice flat surface. If I tried to increase the cadence at that resistance, it would be extremely difficult, and I would have to lower the gears. Then, I feel like my legs are moving too fast for the pedals - good thing my feet are clipped in!! Anyway, I plan on getting a trainer and some of the spinerval DVDs. It is already getting nasty here in northern Indiana. I just want to make sure that I am doing things right. I plan on doing some intervals soon - Higher rpms with lowere resistance for a period of time, then a rest period. Or, should I increase the resistance to a very tough level, lower rpms, but go for a short period of time and then rest, etc.....? Any help would be great.

"See in yourself, not the limits, but the stars..."

If you will be using the Spinervals, they recommend an approximate gear combo / resistance, along with (typically) the heart rate you should be aiming for. Heart rate is related to power output (though it lags relative to power)... so you will be getting the right workout for your capabilities at the moment.

Another book you might want to take a look at is Ride Fast, which is aimed at increasing speed, culminating in a personal time trial / race. The book is aimed at cyclists that have gotten bored with riding due to not being able to break the 20 mph barrier. It assumes (I hope!) that the cyclist already has a reasonable base.

If you feel you already have a reasonable base from running, and/or want to try some shorter more intense workplans, the book above or Carmichael might be the plan for you.

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Originally Posted by 246marathon

I do understand that I need to increase my cadence to a higher level, but I have a difficult time keeping the speed up because I have to reduce the resistance to get the rpms up to a reasonable level and one that is maintainable. I feel great cranking along at 18 mph, 80 rpms, on a nice flat surface. If I tried to increase the cadence at that resistance, it would be extremely difficult, and I would have to lower the gears.

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I'm a newbie rider so I can only give you my experience. First, I think that 80-85 rpms is pretty good. There is not much resistance at that leg speed so you are saving your knees and muscles to some extent.

Second, yes, if you want to practice higher RPMs, you might just have to reduce the resistance/gear. It might feel like you are out of control at first but, as others have probably already said, as you perfect a smooth pedal stroke that should start to go away. When I started to focus on cadence I wanted to go from about 65 rmps to 80-85 rpms and while it did feel funny at first, I soon got the hang of it. I can now go comfortably over 90 rmps in short bursts to pass other riders.

Lastly, I don't know exactly how it happened but I am beginning to become strong enough to push one gear higher at my target of 80-85 rpms for a few minutes as long as there is no headwind. I don't know how exactly one should train up to this but I think that the general idea is that once you have one gear down at your optimum rpm, you can begin working on the next gear. I don't mean that that is the exact process, but that's just how I think of it. You have to teach your body or find your optimum rpm and then become strong enough to push that rpm at a higher gear. That's how I am "self-training" anyway.