Yep, this is also how I see it.Quote:
Originally Posted by malkin
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Yep, this is also how I see it.Quote:
Originally Posted by malkin
I have met Blueberry in person and I can attest that she is beautiful inside and out. Crankin and Veronica, I hope you get to have the same honor to meet her as I have. (BTW, Blueberry, next time I'm in town, we should go over the new bike bridge!)Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueberry
Thanks, Thom's a good photographer. You know I was amazed at how well we all got along and how much I enjoyed their company. There's been some friction between my siblings over the years, but age seems to be tempering it. It's been several years since we've all been together. I hope we don't wait so long for the next one.
Veronica
I got to meet V. in person this summer and she is as beautiful IRL as she is here on the forum, inside and out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueberry
As for the topic at hand, I see this as a healthy discussion with many varying opinions. It's why I keep coming back to TE. As Salsa said, if you voice an opinion here, you should be prepared to be challenged. That's what's great about this forum. Opinions can be discussed without malice.
The Internet may tend to skew a person to be viewed in a particular way because after all, is cycling oriented does tend to chat up about health, fitness matter.
For what it's worth about the context of my remarks in this thread:
My good friend thanked me for getting her azz back on her bike (her words) after our short enjoyable rides. She has 3 bikes. Has loaned one of them to a newbie to get person more into cycling. Then she and I went into a judgemental (probably is) chat where she was concerned about another good friend, a strong outspoken engineer from our city who loves to kayak, etc. , who recently converted to Islam during her work stint in Dubai after meeting a Syrian guy. Friend has dropped out of her career..for the UN and plans to be a housewife in Dubai... Good friend wonders how well her new Islam converted friend will adjust to a completely different lifestyle where women don't have the same equal rights as in North America. Except for ex-pats it might be different.
Anyway... hanging out with good friend is fun. She is also dedicated to her job on supporting cycling infrastructure and alternate mobility options..to a point on personal time, she is taking photos of key, under-discussion cycling infrastructure whenever she and I are walking or cycling around in the evenings. Like other paid staff, they don't have always have much time to take photos of cycling infrastructure at every key stage, and also hope there are cyclists 24x7 on the infrastructure for photos needed for reports, presentations, public education, etc.
So I give some stuff from my massive digital personal photo collection.
Blueberry I don't know what program you are applying for which other friends commented in a discouraging way. When a sister entered medical school, it never occurred to me she shouldn't or she somehow would have to contend with impressions of some patients or whoever, with her weight as a physician. She did lose 50 lbs. temporarily for a few years and then regained abit after having 2 children when she became a mother after 35 yrs. She does her thing...jogs, pilates, etc. She also advises parents as a doctor, to try feeding at least 5-10 times a veggie, prepared in different ways to their child to like eating a broad range of veggies, etc. early in life. She cares about her own health but knowing her, she also doesn't waste time worrying much what others think.
My mother, who has never completed high school (I disagree that many uneducated/low income folks eat unhealthy. They can be inventive and healthy.), yet she has fed her family of 6 children and hubby, healthy home meals for over 60 years. Yet, when you look at her, you wouldn't know it: high blood pressure controlled by drugs for last 2 decades, moderately overweight (she has been warned by doctor)....due to stress of putting her family first vs. herself, adjustments for a long time living in a English speaking society, etc. The end result (though they have lost 1 daughter), is 5 adult children who have no cardiovascular problems, arthritis yet. We range from 45-55 yrs.
True after leaving parents and forging our own lives, living in our own homes, we eat whatever we felt like. But seems we can't shake off completely, what my mother gave to us...a very long lasting legacy of few healthy family dishes.
For certain, we are so grateful we don't have to tell our elderly parents, now with a dying father, how to eat healthy, etc.
Of course judging people based on appearance is common. It's also common for cyclists to go the wrong way on a one way street while using a cellphone -- doesn't mean it's a good idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crankin
What I react to -- and I'm not saying it's relevant in this case -- is discussions that seem pointless and gratuitous. Very often a conversation about poor Sally and her weight problem simply provides an opportunity for those discussing Sally to pat themselves on the back for being superior to Sally. It's a case of building oneself up by putting other people down. For some people, this is a big part of their social behavior and a way of connecting with others.
When I was younger I enjoyed responding to older relatives with wide-eyed innocence and the question: "Why are you so interested in Sarah's weight?" Some were flustered, which I loved; others would claim to be "concerned." Well -- maybe they're concerned, maybe they're just gossiping due to their own insecurity and lack of social skills. When I was lucky, I could shift the conversation to something interesting or positive about Sarah -- and more often than not the "concerned" person had no idea what I was talking about because they had no real interest in getting to know her. They just wanted to bash her.
I've outgrown that approach, of course, but in an extreme case I might state that a conversation makes me uncomfortable, and if it's really extreme I might explain why.
Well, we have relatives who have flat out commented upon meeting others they haven't seen for awhile: "How pudgy you are, etc.". What also flabbergasted us, the younger generation, were questions on our salaries. Which I sidestepped by saying "I make enough money." Thankfully that type of stuff is less and less, as some relatives become more assimilated /acculturated and focused more about their own concerns rather than other people's.
I give the example of my (baby) sister who may defy the wonderful slim image of doctor walking their talk, when she advises patients of better habits, that it is for her from the position not only as part of her job as a physician, but also now with experience as a parent (with real challenge of feeding her young children healthy foods. She doesn't have a nanny to help.) and finally as a daughter who grew up on long term benefit of certain food choices. So an advocate for healthy living, may not appear visually to some people what they might assume.
Pam, I also have ways of confronting people in what I consider to be judgmental conversations. I really don't have to use them much, anymore, but my one friend, who I have described on this forum as "crazy," once said something so offensive to my DH that I almost went nuts. She has no filter on what comes out of her mouth, and I know I should take that into consideration, but she told my DH that the argyle sweater with a V neck he was wearing looked "gay." Now, this is a person who says she's so welcoming to all people, if you get my drift. I said to her, "Would you tell someone that his/her clothes looked "Jewish?" Let's just say, I made my point. Of course, she would say now, that she never said it, but she did.
Then, 2 years ago my DIL told me that at a party at our house, this woman came up to her and said, "You know, you'll never be able to have children and work." My DIL was really upset, and only told me months later. I know this person said it, because *she* didn't work and she feels pretty bad about herself, talking about the career she had 25 years ago. I looked point blank at my son (we were out for brunch she this was revealed) and asked, "Are you f*cked up because I worked?" He laughed and said "Of course not."
What a lovely compliment! Thank you:)Quote:
Originally Posted by tulip
And yes - I would love to go over the new bike bridge next time you're around!
Here is a most interesting TED talk, 12 minutes, on dieting and weight loss/gain by neuroscientist Sandra Aamodt. Well worth watching and learning what science currently says about this.
https://www.ted.com/talks/sandra_aam...t_usually_work
Salsa, thanks for posting that excellent source of information. I wish everyone could see this (especially young women and girls). I was curious and googled Sandra Aamodt. She also has a blog which covers this important topic:
http://www.sandraaamodt.com/
I haven't read all the articles, but this struck me
Scientists don’t yet know which environmental changes are most important for the increase in obesity. Candidates include processed foods, antibiotics, stress, sleep loss, prescription drugs, reduced exercise, and decreased cigarette smoking, among others. Whatever has changed over the past 50 years, it probably isn’t our collective willpower.
I'm going with reduced exercise as the biggest culprit. Again, I only have anecdotal data. In 2011, I weighed 10 pounds less than I do now but I was doing so much cardio a month - to the tune of 7,000 calories more a month in cardio. I keep records, I know is quite similar, maybe even better now. I was training for HIM, so all that cardio had a point and I'm not advocating that anyone do that much. But when I ask my students how much exercise they get, it's often not very much, only what they do in PE class at school. I've noticed over the years that no one teases the "fat kid" anymore because there are so many of them.
And as to why we never chide people for having to wear glasses, but we do for their weight... I believe it is because there are more perceived health risks to being overweight than wearing glasses.
Veronica
I like the article title alone the best: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/...ticle19976430/ Title is: Aim for the healthiest life you can enjoy, not just tolerate.
I actually don't know how to describe my "diet". It's actually cuisine...60% Asian in cooking techniques and type of dishes. Stuff outside of restaurants and sticking to least amount of processed veggies, fruits, meats on the traditional side, minus white rice for me, has been the answer for myself. Of course, I would be a fool not to partake in restaurant meals with friends and family.
Food is actually a very strong cultural and family connection for me. I've lost a lot of Chinese speaking fluency. When my parents die, I will probably lose the fluency even more. (And don't kid me....my Chinese-Canadian friends are like me, more fluent in English than Chinese. So forget about pretending on language retention. Assimilation is super real...for many of us.)
So cooking Chinese is for me..in the end, will be the only tangible thing left for me, in cultural legacy from my family roots. (Other than how I look physically via genetics. I don't want to change it with surgery.) I don't think of food in terms of Weight Watchers "points", but just observe how much salt, sugar and oils/fats there may be in a dish. Do I think about calories? Honest...not really. I tend to eat intuitively and feel shitty if I haven't eaten veggie and fruit for 1-2 consecutive days.
There have been a lot of things I've thought about posting in this thread while I was on limited internet access, but here are two of the most appropriate things I've ever seen.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=699108843490838
... and regarding the correlation between weight and health:
http://www.tylervigen.com (with the exception of certain joint issues, it's actually fairly well established that if there's a causal relationship at all, it's that health problems cause weight gain and not vice versa)
So why is that my doctor tells me nearly every time visit her - once a year - that I should lose weight? My BMI is slightly high, even though my BF is 20%. What about weight and high blood pressure? It's just luck that I'm the fittest one in my family and I don't have it? Oddly, when my sister had tongue cancer and could not eat anything but Ensure for a year, she lost almost 100 pounds and was able to go off her blood pressure meds. She's since put back on a good chunk of that and had to resume taking them.
And yes there are lots of videos of not skinny people doing lots of interesting things. Her upside down split is impressive! I think being sedentary is not a good thing.
Veronica
If your doctor is telling you to lose weight when your BF is 20% (I would've actually guessed lower from your photos) I'd get a new doctor. Unless she's actually telling you to lose muscle, which would be medically supported, but in that case you're as noncompliant as anyone. http://hyper.ahajournals.org/content/30/6/1511.full
But to stay on topic, your health is your doctor's business. Using health as a pretext to body shame peers is not anyone's business. Do we all do it inside our own heads? Probably, just like the saying goes we're all a little bit racist. It's what we say out loud and how hard we work not to express those inner prejudices that counts.
That's something I can agree with! I keep looking at this issue from a teaching perspective. We have some health info on our kids. I know none of mine last year had listed any issues that would cause weight gain. That doesn't mean they didn't have those issues. Ten year olds who are 5 feet tall should not weigh 170 pounds, but I had at least three who weighed that or more. I receive their PE scores for state testing, so I'm not guessing at weight. Naturally, I would never shame them, but I do want to educate them because it's my job. The best snack is NOT that bag of cheetos or those 4 cookies! I approach it as what's going to help them learn between recess and lunch and talk about the chemistry, in 5th grade termsQuote:
Originally Posted by OakLeaf
.
I don't carry my weight in my upper body. Hence not a lot of booty pictures! :p or legs...
Veronica
I think it is because we who make these judgements view weight as something that can be controlled while eyesight isn't viewed that way. Mental illness is another area where we, the members of the judging society, believe that sufferers should just "buck up" and stop being like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Veronica
It's funny, I use to think that. In my egocentricity (in my 20s mind you!), I assumed that if I didn't need "help" given my horrendous childhood, no one did. People were just being wimpy. As my horizons broadened, I learned that there's a lot more that goes on in the brain and contributes to mental health besides having an abusive childhood! I have often wished that I could bottle my resiliency and hand it on to some of my students.Quote:
Originally Posted by malkin
Veronica
Sign me up for a big bottle of your resiliency potion when you get it worked out, ok?
Better yet, I'd sign up for a weekly home delivery like the milkman used to bring!
Malkin, given your comment above, I thought you might find this interesting. A breathtaking 11-minute TED talk from 19-year-old comic Kevin Breel about what it's like to live with depression--not something very responsive to the "buck up" approach to mental health. http://video-subtitle.tedcdn.com/tal...3X-480p-en.mp4
I have read some articles lately about mental health programs that are specifically designed to teach people ongoing coping skills directly related to their mental health symptoms, and some of that sounds very promising.
I want some of Veronica's bottled resiliency too! Just reading some of your day to day struggles in your job makes me realize my hard clients aren't nearly as hard!
I post every so often, but I read here a lot. This is one of the most interesting threads I've ever read. I'm overweight. When I work really really really hard I can lose weight, but I'll likely never be skinny. I am very active, and can do nearly any physical activity I want to. To me, that's what is important -- functional fitness. I can't say much though, because I do love drinking beers after work with my colleagues and I like cheese. It's funny -- for the most part I eat healthy but I feel like I need to apologize for that one cheese and fruit tray we might order once a month because I am overweight.
I know that a lot of health issues are linked with obesity, at least sortof. Most research shows that those health issues are linked more to activity level than weight, but then again weight sometimes has some correlation to activity as well (although its not perfectly correlated in everyone).
I am involved in management of the small business with which I am affiliated and we're always making decisions about how to impact our healthcare costs. Last year we contemplated increasing the percentage of premiums employees paid if (1) they smoked and (2) they were obese according to BMI. The argument was that obesity increases health costs so those who incur the most costs should pay the most. I was horrified -- I really don't have many health issues (well, unless you count some physical therapy from accidents from being active) so it isn't an exact correlation. I know several very thin people at our work that aren't active at all and eat all of the same things I do but their BMI isn't in the obese or overweight range and they have severe health issues. At this time we haven't increased premiums based upon BMI, and we are working to get people more active.
Since I am overweight, people are surprised to learn that I bike and/or run an average of 9-10 hours each week (in a recent work contest to encourage people to increase their activity levels -- it turns out I'm one of the most active). It's funny that the people at work who are closest to me (and know how active I am) are surprised when I say things like "I'd have to pay extra premium if we institute that policy" because once they KNOW me, they don't see me as overweight anymore, in part because I think they are seeing me with their heart rather than with their eyes.
So when I read the opening post to this thread, I read a judgmental tone. Then again, I probably brought my own baggage and defensiveness, because I do know that we judge people by what we see with the preconceived notions about overweight means. I agree that weight does bear some relationship to activity and/or diet -- but I also know that its just a relationship, its not a perfect correlation and depending on which side of the scale you fall on it might mean something different to you.
I've babbled a bit, but I guess I really just wanted to say that I love where this thread went. You women are amazing, and understanding, and critical-thinking and smart and I'm looking forward to where this thread goes on mental health (because I think the stigmatism for mental health issues is similar and we're just now figuring out that its not as simple as we think and that until you've walked a mile in someone's shoes you just might not know what its like).
Amy
Cheese and fruit?Quote:
Originally Posted by Aromig
Really?
... which is exactly what she means about the way fat or even less-than-thin people are publicly judged in our culture. Hopefully Aromig doesn't beat herself up for eating a nice plate of cheese and fruit, but odds are that between the store and her house, some total stranger will be cutting their eyes at her or even, as Blueberry described, making comments to her about sugar and fat. That's why this stuff makes me so angry.
There are people that watch and judge everything. I went through a period where I was "eating clean" and if I attended a function with food that did not offer anything I wanted to eat, some people would make comments about the fact that I chose not to eat anything. "Oh you can afford to eat a few treats" was the most common. Not because I was thin, but I may have been thinner than some people attending(I have not been thin in my adult life) Short of telling the whole life story about working hard to lose about 40 lbs. and being a garbage eater most of my life and how I was working at changing that etc. I got eye rolls, and "oh it won't hurt you' etc.etc. I hated having to defend my choices so I can understand how anyone would feel when comments are made that imply a judgment of any kind. And I never criticized the foods offered. Or told anyone that they were making a mistake eating them. I usually just tried to politely refuse. No thanks, I just ate or some such thing if I could. (Hard to do while dh is making himself a plate.) Best to always keep your thoughts to yourself unless asked specifically, even when intentions are good. Believe me I have a mothering personality. I had a mom who passed away to early from heart disease and my dad had a stroke in his 60 's. I would like to think that I could help some one avoid that but I know how hard it is to change habits. I quit smoking completely only recently. But you know the saying " the road to he!! is paved with good intentions".
I think judging is a tendency we all have, but I think understanding and aknowledging when we do it and seeing it as possibly harmful to us is also important. The anger, frustration, complaining, gossiping and/or dismissiveness etc. that can come from judging others certainly won’t make me a better person. I try to go to a place of acceptance, curiosity and empathy in helping someone rather than where I go when judging them.Quote:
Originally Posted by DebSP
I fail. I can feel bad, untrusting of myself and comfort myself with a quart of chocolate ice cream at times. So I’m not superior to others having problems even if I think I am. I see it as me just being self centered when focusing on how much better I am than someone else or how my frustration is more important than someone’s pain, depression, health problems etc.
Congratulations on quitting smoking!
I'm sorry. My post wasn't clear at all. I meant to indicate that I was surprised that anyone would think there was anything bad about cheese and fruit, not that I was shocked that someone would eat and enjoy it.
I MEANT: Cheese and fruit, what's wrong with that?
I DID NOT MEAN: Cheese and fruit! OMG!! How could you possibly even consider eating that?!
Seriously, I don't know what's wrong with cheese and fruit, unless a person is lactose intolerant, or allergic to strawberries, or just doesn't like cheese and fruit or something like that.
No, I knew exactly what you meant. Sorry if my post came out wrong!
Actually cheese and fruit can be bad. Fruit is high in sugar and cheese can be high in calories. I know the doctor told my neighbor to stop giving her kids fruit or limit it due to weight problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by malkin
Ideally a diet would be high in veggies greens and whole grains and moderate in fruit meat and dairy.
And no, I'm not judging because Lord knows I have no room to talk.
I've had experiences similar to DebSP's. People seem to think it's quite ok to comment when I choose not to eat cake or candy at work or when I eat a food that might be considered "different." It doesn't happen where I work now, and they don't make comments either, when I walk in wearing my bike clothes. Only praise.
I guess what I don't get, is how people think it's ok to *say* something in these situations. I always told my kids, "You can think it, don't say it."
I meant the cheese more than fruit, because let's face it, if you're indulging, who is happy with the serving size of just one ounce. More like having three or 4 different cheeses at one ounce each. from another funny judgmental perspective, on the times I've taken my assistant out she will be judgmental about that same fruit and cheese tray -- but because its very expensive (not because of its dietary makeup). But I guess the point is taken -- there are lots of things to be judgmental about (including towards thin people) so maybe its best just to keep our comments to ourselves. Wouldn't the world be so much better! (FYI, that's the conversation I had with my 13 year old yesterday at lunch. Too bad more mothers don't have that conversation).
My mother was good at that conversation -- and I agree -- it's a conversation that parents should have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aromig
Here's an interesting article from Huffington Post about larger athletes.
Thanks for posting that, PamNY! It articulated the point I was trying to make much better than I could have.Quote:
Originally Posted by PamNY
Thanks, Pam, that's a great article.
I read the comments on the Huffpo article I posted above. Someone asks where plus-size athletes can find clothing. The answer? Team Estrogen! How cool is that?
That is amazing!!Quote:
Originally Posted by PamNY
Things are much better than they used to be - with TE leading the way! The only major hole I see, though, is rain gear. I'm looking for that (for my commute) and coming up short.
That is a GREAT article!Quote:
Originally Posted by PamNY
Well, I just spent the last hour or so reading through this entire thread. First, let me say how wonderful it is to be part of a community where people can voice their opinions but respectfully disagree, and hopefully, we can all learn from one another.
I agree with Amy that we all probably bring our "own baggage and defensiveness" to these discussions, but that being said, I don't think Jean (shootingstar) was being overly judgmental or condescending in her original post. Maybe that's because I come from a judgmental Asian family, so I don't even notice it, but I think she really just wanted to know what to make of her friend not wanting to shop at the farmers market when she buys organic at the store. From my own personal experience, I feel lucky that I can get amazingly fresh eggs, produce, fish, meat, etc., year round at our local farmers markets here in Seattle. However, if I ever took my very traditional, conservative Filipino family (who live in San Diego) to the farmers market, they would ask me why I don't just go to the grocery store. They would think there's something sketchy about buying food from these "random people" in the street, as if the "clean" and packaged food at the grocery store is guaranteed to be safe and better for you. Of course, once you have fresh produce from the farmers market, it's hard to buy grocery store produce. Once I started growing my own heirloom tomatoes, they had such amazing flavor compared to totally tasteless store-bought and restaurant tomatoes, I can't even bring myself to eat tomatoes other than what I grow.
And if Jean's friend has shown her literature about detox diets, then she probably also expressed interest in losing weight. I have a friend who was advised by her naturopath (who is also mine) to go on a detox diet because of severe allergies, digestion and iron absorption issues, exhaustion, etc. The naturopath walked her through what the detox would entail, essentially a special liquid diet and fasting for a week to clear her system of toxins and allergens, which were taxing her immune system. Detox diets aren't weight-loss alternatives; they're usually fasting regimens to "reboot" your body. And the average person may not be able to work and carry out his/her regular day-to-day activities when completing a real detox diet. Jean, if your friend really wants to try a detox diet, she should work with a naturopath or an informed medical professional who can really explain the process to her.
And if Jean's friend goes out to eat a lot and she mostly prefers greasy pizza and Chinese food, then it is a problem. We've all succumbed to "bad food" cravings and it's totally normal to want that burger, pizza, ice cream, etc., once in a while, but most of us are old enough to know there's payback if that's all you eat day in and day out. Yes, it's usually cheaper and much better to shop for fresh food and cook most of your meals, and as a teacher, I love having summers off when I can do just that. But when the school year starts, DH and I both work too much, and I always have a stack of lab reports to grade, we usually don't have the energy to make our own meals more than a few times a week. We definitely go out to eat and get prepared meals more often than we should, but we still try to make healthy choices. Jean, I think it's great that you invite your friend over and cook her homemade meals, and she probably loves that--I know I do when we have friends invite us over for dinner. I would keep doing that and maybe even invite her to cook with you or hang out with you when you're cooking. One of my friends is an amazing cook, and when I watch her cook, I'm always surprised how easy some of her dishes are to prepare when they taste so incredible. If she shows no interest in cooking, are there restaurants you can go to with her where they have really flavorful and healthier food? Maybe she's stuck in a rut but possibly open to new experiences, including eating healthier food.
And I would invite her to go on more bike rides with you. If she golfs and kayaks, then she's probably open to cycling more. She won't be as strong or as fast as you at the start, but she'll get stronger. Soon the two of you will be able to go on longer rides together, so you can hang out while being more active.
I don't know if I agree that it's always best to bite your tongue and never express an opinion your friend might construe as judgmental. I guess it depends on the kind of friendship you have, whether you and your friend hate confrontation, or if you both like to argue and won't be offended by such an exchange. My family has always been melodramatic and confrontational. Even now whenever we all get together, there's always a lot of yelling and crying over the most trivial things, then it always blows over and we're all good. My closest friendships are with women with whom I usually have a lot in common and who help me gain insight about myself and other people, but we can still argue and trust each other enough to know one of us may criticize with the intent to help, not to attack or hurt, the other person. In contrast, friendships often didn't last when we had little in common, felt like we always had to hold back because the other person was thin-skinned, or neither of us cared enough to address any substantive issues that might lead to an uncomfortable confrontation.
Veronica, thanks so much for sharing your experiences with your family. Of course, we all want our family and friends to be healthy and happy. It's always heartbreaking to watch them make poor diet and lifestyle choices that jeopardize their health and possibly their life. Of course, you cannot change someone who does not want to change, but we all want to believe if we care enough and nag them enough, we can convince them to make healthier choices, so they can be with us for as long as possible.
Since detox diets were mentioned: I may be opening a can of worms here, but I have to mention that the only thing I've ever read about detox diets, by sources not about to make money on them, is that they don't work. There is no measurable difference in toxins in the bodywork after a week long fast or detox diet. That's not to say a healthy diet won't gradually give you less toxins, but there's no way of jump starting the process. At best it has a psychological effect, as a transition to a better diet.
Body, not bodywork B-)