DI2 Depression.

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Originally Posted by Seajay

Hi Wahine, - et al "purists"
Just to give you a little perspective. I did three upgrades for customers this past summer to Di2. ALL THREE were women with small hands, one with severe arthritis who were really struggling with shifting their road bikes. Two of these customers literally told me they saw the end of their cycling was very near. I feel Di2 gave them a new lease on their enjoyment of cycling.
Sure the "Racer Boys" who run the cycling industry are touting all the "racing performance" of Di2...but performance can be many things to many people.
I'm sure you didn't mean to tell the woman that she is not allowed to enjoy cycling anymore because she has arthritis.
Just a thought.
Seajay

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I agree. As a bike fitter I see the advantage to many people. I just don't think that Di2 should be in the same category as a regular bicycle.

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Electronic shifting is less of a drastic change than clip-less pedals were. Does anyone else remember when they came in, back in the 80s? At that time, criterium races were started from a standing start - the commissaire fired the gun as you stood at the start line and you tried to get your feet in your toe clips and tighten your straps as you rolled forward. Clip-less pedals were seen as unfair, so many commissaires started doing a rolling neutral lap to level the field. Today many still do, even though you never see toe clips in races any more.

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I don't agree with this. Many of the improvements in bike technology are purely mechanical devices. Di2 has an external power source. IMHO that puts it in a different category. Again, I have not issue with it for facilitating riding for people that have physical issues. I'm just arguing that Di2 can't be compared to a regular bicycle, especially in competition.

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Originally Posted by Owlie

I totally agree that if you have hand issues (arthritis, etc), electronic shifting is definitely a plus. I think there's a difference between accommodating so that you can ride comfortably and buying it because of purported performance improvement (and because it's a cool new toy). But then, you could say that about nearly anything.

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I thought Di2 was stupid, too...until I broke my wrist mountain-biking. It's taken me a long time to have enough strength in my fingers/wrist/hand to properly shift my right SRAM lever and my wrist limited my rides until the past couple of months. Had I broken my left wrist I'd really be screwed. It's hard work shifting to the big ring on that side even with a fully functional wrist.

So, yeah, they serve a purpose. I'm considering Di2 on my next bike...especially if I develop arthritis in my bum wrist. Anything that allows me to bike more, in spite of physical limitations/injury, is a good thing.

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Originally Posted by Skippyak

I used to only ever drive stick shifts, it is the same thing really, who drives a stick unless you have a performance car anymore? I love auto cars. I get hives when I have to drive my DHs stick shift and I drove stick for longer than I have driven auto. I am waiting for the auto version in bike shifting.

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Ha, and you could not PAY me to drive an automagic. Gah, I replaced one automatic transmission in my first car (previous owner clearly had not maintained it properly). Manual absolutely rocks in snow! And traction/stability control blows. I can always upshift and get my foot off the gas faster than those systems will kick-in. I won't even buy a car with automatic transmission.

I'll take all wheel drive plus my super snow tires any day. A manual transmission could not get me up my driveway in 12+ inches of snow and ice. And I am talking about a small sedan and a mid sized station wagon.
I've had manual transmission cars and there's no way I'd have one now. Too much work! New cars rarely have automatic transmission issues.

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Originally Posted by Wahine

I agree. As a bike fitter I see the advantage to many people. I just don't think that Di2 should be in the same category as a regular bicycle.

.... Many of the improvements in bike technology are purely mechanical devices. Di2 has an external power source. IMHO that puts it in a different category. Again, I have not issue with it for facilitating riding for people that have physical issues. I'm just arguing that Di2 can't be compared to a regular bicycle, especially in competition.

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Agreed, there is always room for technology that makes it easier for a wider range of people to ride - but not all of them should be allowed in competition.

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Originally Posted by Crankin

I'll take all wheel drive plus my super snow tires any day. A manual transmission could not get me up my driveway in 12+ inches of snow and ice. And I am talking about a small sedan and a mid sized station wagon.
I've had manual transmission cars and there's no way I'd have one now. Too much work! New cars rarely have automatic transmission issues.

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I LOVE a manual transmission. PART of it is due to the fact that FOR CARS IN MY PRICE POINT a manual transmission is more responsive in the lower gears. In the end, however, I just prefer a manual transmission and as long as I've two feet I will drive one ;) I HAVE heard interesting things about a hybrid transmission available in some cars where you can switch between manual and automatic? Unsure if I have that right and I don't see that ever being available in my price range. Something like that would be nice if one happens to injure the left foot or leg... That is the only downside to a manual transmission.

It is also dangerous for me to drive an automatic as I want to shift it.... BTW, seems to me I know people with a manual + all-wheel drive? I could be mistaken on that.

Well ... since you'd lock an automatic into first or second to climb my lane in snow anyhow, there's really no difference there. (Except that with an automatic, you have to remember to shift down to lock out the automatic upshift, where a manual stays there all by itself. :) )

But now that my last two cars have been CVT, I don't think I'd want another car with fixed gear ratios no matter how the shifting worked.

@Catrin, Subarus have had that feature for probably ten years? They introduced it right after we bought our last 'Ru, which was an '03. It might have been part of another option package even then, and only later became more standard. I know my mom's car has it. I don't know how common it is in other non-sports cars. But it's still a traditional hydraulic transmission, you just have the option to lock out the automatic shifting and select the gear manually.


As far as maintenance, yeah ... that's a bugaboo from the 1960s. Nowadays as long as you keep your ATF topped off and change it once in a blue moon, you're very unlikely to have problems. Where, when's the last time you bought a used stick shift that DIDN'T have a burned out second-gear syncro? :p

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Originally Posted by Catrin

BTW, seems to me I know people with a manual + all-wheel drive? I could be mistaken on that.

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My brother's Subaru is AWD and manual. A Subie is high on our list of next cars...I'd love a manual Crosstrek!

And snow tires...LOVE mine. I can't even make the ABS kick-in 90% of the time when I'm driving in the Winter.

My last manual car was a Subaru. The transmission failed on a big hill in San Diego...
Of course that was in 1983, but that was it for me.

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Originally Posted by OakLeaf

Nowadays as long as you keep your ATF topped off and change it once in a blue moon, you're very unlikely to have problems. Where, when's the last time you bought a used stick shift that DIDN'T have a burned out second-gear syncro? :p

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We've never even replaced a clutch (or required any other maintenance) on any of our manuals...this includes several cars with well over 200k miles (we've had 4 in about 20 years). I think a properly used MT (ie not riding the clutch) and properly maintained AT are probably pretty comparable. I just personally don't see the point in AT when it typically costs more and potential issues are also pricier to repair. Plus they just work better under the driving conditions I encounter. If I had to do lots of stop-and-go city driving I'd probably feel differently.

Took me about 2 seconds of living in a big city to discover what a big PITA stick shift is. I learned on a stick and enjoyed driving them, then I moved to the city. In all the stop and go traffic it's a pain and hassle. I'll never own another unless I move.

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Originally Posted by OakLeaf

... Where, when's the last time you bought a used stick shift that DIDN'T have a burned out second-gear syncro? :p

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I've never had a problem with a manual transmission or clutch - outside of the one on which I learned how to drive :o Until a few years ago most of my cars were very old and very well used 5-speed Hondas of one type or another. There WAS one American car in the mix that I drove until the car started falling apart - but the drivetrain was fine! Hard to find used cars like that any longer...

Zoom, thanks for the confirmation, I KNEW there were all-wheel drives with manual transmissions but I couldn't think of an example at the moment. I've always lived in the city and don't even think about urban traffic with shifting - for me shifting IS "automatic" ;)

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Originally Posted by thekarens

Took me about 2 seconds of living in a big city to discover what a big PITA stick shift is. I learned on a stick and enjoyed driving them, then I moved to the city. In all the stop and go traffic it's a pain and hassle. I'll never own another unless I move.

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Thus is why dh didn't go manual with the most recent car. Traffic + Stick Shift = Not Good.

On some roads, though, they're a lot of fun to drive!

I love that this thread has morphed into a discussion of manual vs automatic trannie cars. I mean that sincerely.

Any guesses what I drive? Anyone? Anyone?

A manual!!!! I know you're all surprised. But here's a little something to ponder. My MT Honda Fit gets better gas mileage and is a waaaaaaay peppier ride than my friend's identical but AT Fit. I do have to agree that if you live in a city and get stuck in traffic, it's PITA. But in all other ways, MT is a huge plus IMHO.

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Originally Posted by Wahine

I love that this thread has morphed into a discussion of manual vs automatic trannie cars. I mean that sincerely.

Any guesses what I drive? Anyone? Anyone?

A manual!!!! I know you're all surprised. But here's a little something to ponder. My MT Honda Fit gets better gas mileage and is a waaaaaaay peppier ride than my friend's identical but AT Fit. I do have to agree that if you live in a city and get stuck in traffic, it's PITA. But in all other ways, MT is a huge plus IMHO.

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Dh's last car was a manual for that reason - it was peppier than the comparable automatic. Chemo, one stress fracture (during which I had to give up my beloved Highlander because he couldn't drive a stick with a boot on) and a whole lot of traffic later, automatic it was.

The stick IS more fun. Just not practical around here, unfortunately.

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Originally Posted by Wahine

I love that this thread has morphed into a discussion of manual vs automatic trannie cars. I mean that sincerely.

Any guesses what I drive? Anyone? Anyone?

A manual!!!! I know you're all surprised. But here's a little something to ponder. My MT Honda Fit gets better gas mileage and is a waaaaaaay peppier ride than my friend's identical but AT Fit. I do have to agree that if you live in a city and get stuck in traffic, it's PITA. But in all other ways, MT is a huge plus IMHO.

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I love dropping people from a standstill with far more horsepower and AT with my little 150bhp Mazda 3 hatchback. Admittedly, it still gets sorta crappy gas mileage for a small car, regardless of transmission. One reason we'll never own another Mazda (the transmission and engine are about the only things that haven't been problematic in 7+ years).

That Honda Fit is pretty much my DH's dream car. His best car ever was an '89 Honda Civic Si hatchback. He still pines for that thing.

This makes me chuckle because when I drive DHs sub impreza WRXsti stick, I giggle at the boy racers beside me who think I am going to take them on at the lights LOL., in this car and his previous car (mazda RX8 stick) people try and race me, people, I am a middle aged lady, I can barely tell what gear I am in. Rev all you like, go ahead and overtake me you crazy bastards ROFL, I is driving the speed limit. I don't like driving his car at all. My FIL loves burning people at the lights in his Honda fit (LMAO).

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Originally Posted by Wahine

I love that this thread has morphed into a discussion of manual vs automatic trannie cars. I mean that sincerely.

Any guesses what I drive? Anyone? Anyone?

A manual!!!! I know you're all surprised. But here's a little something to ponder. My MT Honda Fit gets better gas mileage and is a waaaaaaay peppier ride than my friend's identical but AT Fit. I do have to agree that if you live in a city and get stuck in traffic, it's PITA. But in all other ways, MT is a huge plus IMHO.

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It IS interesting how this thread has morphed - but in the end - it IS still about drive-trains :)

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Originally Posted by luvmyguys

Dh's last car was a manual for that reason - it was peppier than the comparable automatic. Chemo, one stress fracture (during which I had to give up my beloved Highlander because he couldn't drive a stick with a boot on) and a whole lot of traffic later, automatic it was.

The stick IS more fun. Just not practical around here, unfortunately.

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I love the peppier lower gears I get in my cars than the comparable automatics. I am sure there are ATs out there that are just as peppy and responsive, but not in my price range. At least I've not found one. I don't have issues driving in traffic with a stick so I can't really identify with that - but I've NEVER owned an automatic. Back in my taxi-driving years long ago my taxi was indeed an automatic but I HATED that car for far more reasons than the transmission. The only problem I've had with a manual was post-foot-surgery in 2004 - it took me a LOT longer to get back to driving than it would have been as my foot couldn't take the pressure of the clutch once I was cleared for driving.

Electric motor torque, baby. Nothing gets you off the line like a hybrid. :D

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Originally Posted by Skippyak

This makes me chuckle because when I drive DHs sub impreza WRXsti stick, I giggle at the boy racers beside me who think I am going to take them on at the lights LOL., in this car and his previous car (mazda RX8 stick) people try and race me, people, I am a middle aged lady, I can barely tell what gear I am in. Rev all you like, go ahead and overtake me you crazy bastards ROFL, I is driving the speed limit. I don't like driving his car at all. My FIL loves burning people at the lights in his Honda fit (LMAO).

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I think some guys are not at all choosy about who they do this to. I had some dude in a racy little BMW pull this on me when I was driving my pokey little '97 Ford Escort with my kid in his carseat in the back. He had to have been really bored and REALLY in need of an ego stroking! :p

My very first car was an RX7. I loved that car. Had to carry a case of oil with me because no one seemed to be able to fix the perpetual oil leak.

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Originally Posted by thekarens

My very first car was an RX7. I loved that car. Had to carry a case of oil with me because no one seemed to be able to fix the perpetual oil leak.

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I had a car like that but it wasn't an RX7. I *dreamed* of an RX7.

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Originally Posted by Wahine

I had a car like that but it wasn't an RX7. I *dreamed* of an RX7.

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I was lucky. It was my dad's, a 1979 rust colored rx7. He bought it used and when I turned 17 (1987) I got it. In hindsight he was crazy letting me have it, but I was the baby :-)

I learned to drive (the second time, long story) on my brother-in-law's 280Z. Manual transmission, natch. I've never been quite the same since. :p

I don't mind start-and-stop with a manual, at all. Steep hills kind of give me the willies, though. Way less on a car than on a moto that I'm on one tiptoe anyway ...

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Originally Posted by zoom-zoom

I think some guys are not at all choosy about who they do this to. I had some dude in a racy little BMW pull this on me when I was driving my pokey little '97 Ford Escort with my kid in his carseat in the back. He had to have been really bored and REALLY in need of an ego stroking! :p

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I'm amazing at the reaction my little Fiat get from the 'small package' guys(girly car in a girly color). Although , most older guy give me a thumbs up.
Bringing it back to the original topic, the thread has reminded me of the bent controversy back in the 1930's
http://www.cyclegenius.com/history.php
The argument for banning them wasn't they were dangerous or nerdy, but the riders were 'cheating'.

Here's a really informative review of Ultegra Di2, especially halfway down where Hannah Bussey provides her take on it: http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/tech/...tegra-di2.html

When I bought my new bike, my LBS had to special order the frame to get the smallest Colnago CLD (in a 40s) in the color I wanted. That meant I could pick the components--well, within my budget. After weeks of research the review above convinced me to pay the extra $600 to upgrade from Ultegra mechanical to Ultegra Di2. Since it is a Colnago, it would have been nice to have it be all Italian, and I actually considered Campy for about a day. However, Campy Chorus and Campy Record were about the same or a little more than Ultegra Di2, and I already had Shimano wheels and didn't want to spend even more. (BTW, the full Dura Ace Di2 groupset and Campy's electronic shifting Record EPS groupset would have been $2000 more and Super Record EPS was $3000 more than Ultegra Di2.) For racers I think the advantage of Dura-Ace, Record, and Super Record components over Ultegra is probably greater than the advantage of electronic over mechanical shifting at the same level, but as others have brought up before, those who can shell out that kind of cash always have those advantages.

As for dealing with a dead battery, there's a battery indicator light that's solid green (51-100% charge), flashing green (26-50%), and solid red (25% and lower). The typical Di2 battery charge should last between 1000-1500 miles, so you're probably not going to take a Di2 bike on a cross-country ride if you're not going to have access to a wall outlet. But in general the only way you'd have a dead battery is if your indicator light's been flashing green or solid red, and you've just been ignoring it for hundreds of miles. I've ridden about 500+ miles since I've had my bike, and the battery indicator just went from solid to flashing green.

As for Shimano pushing Di2 on consumers, so far only the higher-end carbon bikes are even Di2 compatible, and manufacturers don't even offer Ultegra Di2 as an option on complete bikes except for their highest-end bikes. If anything it seems like for the same price more and more of the newer carbon bikes are getting Shimano 105 or even Tiagra components and cheaper wheels.

For me, the Di2 upgrade was definitely worth it. I'm so much more confident on my new bike, maybe because the frame is smaller and it really fits me and/or maybe because the Di2 hoods are smaller, so with my XS-size hands, I feel more confident shifting and braking. In any case, I'm having a lot more fun riding my new bike, and I don't think we should discredit anything that makes riding more fun. Just my $0.02.

I'm glad you got something that worked so well for you! Thinking back to bikes I've owned over the decades, I have nostalgic thoughts about the rides I did on them, but wouldn't go back to down-tube shifters, toe clips, or deep drop handlebars for any amount of money. People who are overly nostalgic about the good ol' days of cycling often forget that riders at the extreme ends of the size spectrum - but especially small riders - were simply left out.

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Originally Posted by nuliajuk

I'm glad you got something that worked so well for you! Thinking back to bikes I've owned over the decades, I have nostalgic thoughts about the rides I did on them, but wouldn't go back to down-tube shifters, toe clips, or deep drop handlebars for any amount of money. People who are overly nostalgic about the good ol' days of cycling often forget that riders at the extreme ends of the size spectrum - but especially small riders - were simply left out.

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Heck, we're still left out in many ways. I'm frustrated as I look to upgrade my CX bike. If I want something more than entry-level frame and components I pretty much have to go custom...and at just under 5'4" I'm not THAT small, but women still make up a fraction of the field at local races (I think there were only 6-7 of us at yesterday's race...out of hundreds of racers. Most women I've ever seen in a day at our area series is in the neighborhood of 15). Just finding a frame small enough in the first place is a challenge, since the bottom bracket height is so much higher than on a road bike. To find bikes with top tubes that I can clear means that anything larger than a 44 (comparable to my 48cm road bike) is generally going to be too big. I love my Redline and was drooling over their carbon/disc Pro model...which starts at a 48 and would be far too big for me.

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Originally Posted by MarieV

As for Shimano pushing Di2 on consumers, so far only the higher-end carbon bikes are even Di2 compatible, and manufacturers don't even offer Ultegra Di2 as an option on complete bikes except for their highest-end bikes. If anything it seems like for the same price more and more of the newer carbon bikes are getting Shimano 105 or even Tiagra components and cheaper wheels.

For me, the Di2 upgrade was definitely worth it. I'm so much more confident on my new bike, maybe because the frame is smaller and it really fits me and/or maybe because the Di2 hoods are smaller, so with my XS-size hands, I feel more confident shifting and braking. In any case, I'm having a lot more fun riding my new bike, and I don't think we should discredit anything that makes riding more fun. Just my $0.02.

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I'm glad you like it! I agree with your last sentence completely. Would I buy Di2? No. Doesn't mean I don't think other people should buy it.

It's definitely harder if you're smaller.

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Originally Posted by zoom-zoom

Heck, we're still left out in many ways. I'm frustrated as I look to upgrade my CX bike. If I want something more than entry-level frame and components I pretty much have to go custom...and at just under 5'4" I'm not THAT small, but women still make up a fraction of the field at local races (I think there were only 6-7 of us at yesterday's race...out of hundreds of racers. Most women I've ever seen in a day at our area series is in the neighborhood of 15). Just finding a frame small enough in the first place is a challenge, since the bottom bracket height is so much higher than on a road bike. To find bikes with top tubes that I can clear means that anything larger than a 44 (comparable to my 48cm road bike) is generally going to be too big. I love my Redline and was drooling over their carbon/disc Pro model...which starts at a 48 and would be far too big for me.

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Beautiful bike...but I'd ride the 48. Maybe a 51 if I didn't want to actually race on it and wanted to use it as an off-pavement road bike. (My Charge is close to the 51.) Wow.

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Originally Posted by zoom-zoom

Heck, we're still left out in many ways. I'm frustrated as I look to upgrade my CX bike. If I want something more than entry-level frame and components I pretty much have to go custom...and at just under 5'4" I'm not THAT small, but women still make up a fraction of the field at local races (I think there were only 6-7 of us at yesterday's race...out of hundreds of racers. Most women I've ever seen in a day at our area series is in the neighborhood of 15). Just finding a frame small enough in the first place is a challenge, since the bottom bracket height is so much higher than on a road bike. To find bikes with top tubes that I can clear means that anything larger than a 44 (comparable to my 48cm road bike) is generally going to be too big. I love my Redline and was drooling over their carbon/disc Pro model...which starts at a 48 and would be far too big for me.

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Believe me, it's way better than it was 20-30 years ago.
Part of the problem with 'cross bikes, I think, is that they can't have a sloping top tube because there wouldn't be enough clearance to carry the bike over the shoulder. Compact frame geometry has created smaller frames that weren't possible years ago, but no-one is going to make a cross frame like that.
edited to add: Probably not quite what you had in mind, but this 'cross frame goes down to 42cm:
http://www.somafab.com/archives/prod...ble-cross-disc

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Originally Posted by nuliajuk

Believe me, it's way better than it was 20-30 years ago.
Part of the problem with 'cross bikes, I think, is that they can't have a sloping top tube because there wouldn't be enough clearance to carry the bike over the shoulder. Compact frame geometry has created smaller frames that weren't possible years ago, but no-one is going to make a cross frame like that.
edited to add: Probably not quite what you had in mind, but this 'cross frame goes down to 42cm:
http://www.somafab.com/archives/prod...ble-cross-disc

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That is lovely. What gets me is that my bike has the most amazing geometry for me (aside from toe-overlap, but I even know bigger guys who run into that), but Redline will only do that frame in low-end models. I guess it's not profitable for them to do carbon molds of that geometry, simply because they wouldn't sell enough of that smallest size. It's NBD for them to do that with aluminum and low-end components.

Kirsten, the Ridley X-Fire comes in a 41 (45 cm seat tube and 502 mm top tube).

http://www.cyclingnews.com/reviews/r...re-disc-review
http://www.competitivecyclist.com/ri...-complete-bike

Wahine, sorry about hijacking your thread, so those of us who are vertically challenged can vent.

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Originally Posted by MarieV

Kirsten, the Ridley X-Fire comes in a 41 (45 cm seat tube and 502 mm top tube).

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Yeah...unfortunately the only shop near us that carries it are sorta sworn enemies -- they fired "our guy" just before Christmas...ugly politics and they've alienated a lot of long-time area cyclists in the wake of that. As a result we're actually in the process of opening a new shop with our friend and 2 other friends (using some of the money DH inherited when his grandma died early this year -- couldn't think of a better way to invest that, really!). So far the lines we're likely to carry (trying not to duplicate too many other shops in the region) don't offer a lot of CX bikes for shorties. At this point custom is my likeliest route...which still sorta sits weird with me. I know it's my own insecurities, but I can't help but feel like my relatively slow, relatively casual riding doesn't "deserve" a $$ custom frame, even though I have legitimate reasons for going that route. I'm still bummed that I can't get a higher-end carbon Redline with discs, since that would be perfect (and probably half what a comparable custom will cost). My low-rent Redline is my very favorite bike. It fits like it was made for me.

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Originally Posted by MarieV

For me, the Di2 upgrade was definitely worth it. I'm so much more confident on my new bike, maybe because the frame is smaller and it really fits me and/or maybe because the Di2 hoods are smaller, so with my XS-size hands, I feel more confident shifting and braking. In any case, I'm having a lot more fun riding my new bike, and I don't think we should discredit anything that makes riding more fun. Just my $0.02.

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+1
For those of us with small arthritic hands, the Di2 is a Godsend. Interesting that you have to get old enough to have arthritis hands to afford one...?

I also looked at Campy because my previous bike of 17 years was Campy. But when I tried the Di2 I was sold. I have never ... knock on wood ... missed a shift in the almost two years that I've owned it. I've also never run out of charge because you get plenty of warning. If you ignore the warning light for weeks, you won't get stuck in a gear. The next warning is that you won't be able to shift your front gears but you'll still have all of your rear derailleur.

I "raced" a guy up a long hill a few weeks ago and beat him only because my shifting was smoother, quicker and more accurate. Hey, when you're pushing 60 hard, winning a race against a kid is a big thing!

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Originally Posted by zoom-zoom

At this point custom is my likeliest route...which still sorta sits weird with me. I know it's my own insecurities, but I can't help but feel like my relatively slow, relatively casual riding doesn't "deserve" a $$ custom frame, even though I have legitimate reasons for going that route. I'm still bummed that I can't get a higher-end carbon Redline with discs, since that would be perfect (and probably half what a comparable custom will cost). My low-rent Redline is my very favorite bike. It fits like it was made for me.

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Zoom, you are exactly the kind of person that should buy a custom bike. You know exactly what you want and you ride. That's all that matters. The fact that you have some difficult fitting issues just makes it even more important that you buy custom if you can. And, a custom cross bike doesn't have to be more expensive than a production bike. It's all in the build. You can order the custom frame and everything else you can buy and build up through your shop at wholesale prices. I built a very inexpensive custom cross bike. It's heavy as all get out, but that has more to do with the build than the frame. IMHO it doesn't make a lot of sense to spend a lot on a cross bike build since you ride those bikes in horrible conditions and have to replace parts frequently.