Oh boy...;) :)Quote:
Originally Posted by bcipam
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Oh boy...;) :)Quote:
Originally Posted by bcipam
No honestly I would read it... it has alot of good insight into relationships whether man-woman, woman-woman or man-man. Its always good to understand where our partners are coming from!
I wonder what kind of advice she has to give homosexual couples, given that she seems to have deep-seated views against homosexuality.
I honestly think Dr. Laura has a view of men and women out of the Jurassic era:
"The women who criticize their husbands in the stories that Schlessinger relates are depressed in their marriages and feel little love from their husbands. Unabashedly asserting that man is a "very simple creature," who needs only "direct communication, respect, appreciation, food, and good loving'" to respond with devotion, compassion and love, this controversial marriage and family therapist claims that every woman can achieve a deeply satisfying marriage if she adheres to certain fundamentals men require. Preparing dinner, caring for the children without complaint, greeting her husband with a kiss and engaging in sexual intimacy instead of "tearing down a husband's necessary sense of strength and importance" can result in the harmonious marriage women crave.
In short, spread your legs and keep his stomach full. I'm sorry, her understanding of both men and women are demeaning to humankind. As women in the twenty first century, we owe many of our freedoms to past generations of women who stood up for themselves and fought against "men's sense of self-importance." If it weren't for those women, I would not have many of the choices I have and because of that, I remind Dr. Laura that well-behaved women rarely made history
Wow, thanks everyone. This thread really took off :D
Ok first off, we are in no shape or form on the verge of breaking up over this crap. I was venting, though I did ask for advice on how to help a guy figure out how to not be such a slob.
bcipam, I appreciate your advice but it's not really applicable. And well, I'd never buy or read a Dr. Laura book. My mother would listen to her on the radio and I'd just sit and listen to her and scratch my head. I classify her a few levels below Dr. Phil, who's an embarassment to most of the people in the field of Psychology.
So after my big meltdown, which I agree that was brought on by stress, we had a talk the next morning. I think when I get under too much I have a harder time overlooking his messy ways. Anyway, I think he understood a little how upset it made me that he was ignoring/blowing off/whatever you want to call it my reaction to his messiness. You're right, we've lived together a long time and I know this is how he is. But on the flip side, he knows how I am so we need to compromise. And yes, this is a stupid thing to fight over - which I brought up. When I came home that night, the crap all over the counter was picked up and replaced with some flowers. :D
Anyway, thanks again for letting me vent. And for the tips. He'll "behave" for a while but I fully expect him to lapse. So I'll keep those in my back pocket for next time.
Well, we didn't want to tell you this, but we all chipped in and bought you the flowers...after we all got together and had a cheerful coffee with a friendly debate over the pros and cons of Dr. Laura and her books. Now we are all happy!! :p
Beta - Relationships are hard work, eh? It's all about compromise and choosing your battles. I've become an expert on living the Serenity Prayer (recognize what you can change, change what you can, and have the wisdom to know the difference). Decide what's really important and then try to find humor in the not-so-important things.
Anyway, feel free to vent. We all have things that drive us crazy about our partners.
Ironically, I'm the slob and my husband used to be a neat freak. After 17 years of marriage, I've become a little neater (I have only one coat "unhung up" instead of several) and he's realized that there is a certain freedom in being messy ;). Our three big golden retrievers really make it impossible to have a really clean house anyway.
Yes, my husband cleans the house! Although, of course, he doesn't do it "right." haha. However, I've classified that in the "not important enough to bring up" category. :)
I have learned relationships, from friends to parents, are about giving 100%. But don't take my word for it. I am frequently wrong.
I am of the belief before I make an opinion about something I go to the source. I realize there is alot of critique of Dr. Laura, especially from the gay community, but unless a person has actually read her works or listened to her viewpoint in order to understand her properly, it's hard to debate whether that person's viewpoint is right or wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by abuelitodimetu
I just have to assume you have read her books and that based on your own reading you agree with the analysis above. I've read her books and I don't get that feeling at all. In fact, she wrote a companion book called "Woman Power" and clearly does not avocate that a woman just sit back and spread her legs (man, in fact, she would argue the contrary!). Clearly women have a very powerful voice, especially in the care and health of a family. But women are different from men. A biological fact and I say viva la difference! Her book "Care and Feeding of Husbands" points out those difference and explains in order to be happy, we must, as women accept those differences. But that doesn't mean roll over and give in. There really are some powerful, concise and astute observations in her books.
And the Gay Community, on a whole, does not condemn Dr. Laura. Yes some do, obviously there is a very vocal minority. I am a Christian, Heterosexual female. I have some viewpoints about homosexuality as well. No, not what you think. That's a whole other thread. But I do believe that sex, regardless of one's bent, should be taken very seriously. I, as does Dr. Laura, feel casual sex is extremely hurtful and damaging. I also feel no one, gays or straights, should have sex without a true comitment, legal is best. There are biological and moral reasons for this. Anyway, enough said. This is the viewpoint of Dr. Laura and many conservative Christians. Now before anyone starts, aren't I entitled to my viewpoint just as you are entitled to yours? I condemn or judge no one, I just say this is my belief. It is not a liberal viewpoint but I do not condemn anyone's right to a liberal viewpoint.
Also I want to add: I realize alot of women who use this forum are very liberal, feminist and gay. OK exact opposite of me. If I were intolerate I clearly would not come to this site, participate in the community and add my own posts. I am interested in listening to everyone's viewpoint and what they have to say. We all have a common thread - the love of cycling. It's so cool we can all agree on that!
I can't really make an informed decision about anything if I don't know both sides of the coin. My beliefs and viewpoints work for me. I am older (55), have lived my life and have had alot of experiences which help shape my views. I started out in life very liberal (I graduated in '68 at the height of SDS - nothing more liberal than that!). My personal experiences and observations have made me more conservative about things. I also know not everything is so black and white, right or wrong. What works for one person may not work for another. But I know what works for me. I am not intolerant, close minded or harsh. I just different from you. Nothing more.
I have, in fact, had the appalling experience of listening to her talk show a few times when our truck radio broke and got stuck on her station. So, my opinion is informed. Furthermore, even if I grant Dr. Laura and you the point that there are certain qualities that are intrinsic to male and female nature, respectively, it does not follow that our behavior should/ought to adjust to those differences. No normative claims follow from factual claims. Honestly, I do not which context could make the phrase "tearing down a husband's necessary sense of strength and importance" a little less loathsome.
I can grant you that you're not intolerant; you have not shown intolerance. Nevertheless, Dr. is a judgemental hidebound pseudo-expert who has passed very misguided judgements with regards to both homosexuals and the feminist movement. And yes, I have evidence. So, not only is Dr. Laura annoying and ignorant, she is also spreading lies and hate. So I am sorry, but I am not going say "What works for you might not work for me; we're all cool." The world would be better off without scumbags like her:
So then they make babies without guys and that's part of the feminist mantra – men are not necessary.
Not only that, they are the oppressors. They'll rape and molest your kids and beat you and leave you. The whole mentality is bizarre. And so we have a large percentage of children who will never have a father.
"The well-funded and well-connected homosexual activist movement has become the McCarthyism of the 21st century."
"Of course a society should discriminate. Of course it should. It should discriminate against certain behaviors. And man-on-man and woman-on-woman sexual activity is a deviant sexual orientation -- does not promote any of the values set forth Biblically."
"I am so sick and tired of all the Arab-American groups whining and complaining about some kind of treatment... What culture and what religion were all the murderers of 9/11? They murdered us."
I have read one of Dr. Laura's books, and I listened to many hours of her radio program. She can be intolerant, and she can be ignorant. I have a problem with her making pronouncements in areas where she is ignorant. This, to me, is the real issue.
One example: a woman called in with an issue, and said that she knew that as a Christian, she was required to forgive, but she was finding this hard to do. Dr. Laura responded that the woman was NOT required to forgive. This was completely wrong -- she should have sent the woman to someone who understands the basic tenants of Christianity.
Another example: a woman called in asking whether she should go on a cruise with her husband. It would entail finding a sitter for her young child because the Coast Guard would not allow more than X number of persons on the ship (based, if I recall, on the number of berths). Dr. Laura said that was ridiculous; it was obvious that a baby could fit in the cabin. The real problem --which she would have realized if she knew anything about sailing and safety -- was not whether the baby would fit in the cabin, but whether it would fit in a lifeboat should there be need.
To give Dr. Laura her due, however, I have also heard one or two homosexual persons calling in with relationship problems. Dr. Laura did not condemn or lecture them, but addressed the problem just as she would have done had it been a heterosexual person.
bcipam..."I just have to assume you have read her books and that based on your own reading you agree with the analysis above. I've read her books and I don't get that feeling at all."
So many books, so little time, there are much more important things for me to do (like ride...and eat) and better things to read. Like I haven't read any of the Harry Potter books yet!
No, I haven't read her work but when a writer/speaker is generaly agreed to be homophobic, there's enough going on to make me mad during the day that I don't need more.
It's like when someone says "I think this milk is curdled, could you try it?"
You just told me it's bad, I don't need to try it!
"And the Gay Community, on a whole, does not condemn Dr. Laura. Yes some do, obviously there is a very vocal minority."
Oh? And since when do you speak for us?
"I am a Christian, Heterosexual female. I have some viewpoints about homosexuality as well...."
And you and your viewpoints and welcome here!
But you should be aware that speaking as I do for the global LGBT community as a whole (not) we're not asking for, concerned about, care one bit about, give a flying bleep about you think of us.
We're not asking for your approval but would appreciate it very kindly if you would convey to the Christian Right wing as a whole that we would kindly and repectfully appreciate it if you would do what I see (as a lil' Jewish gal from Petaluma, so what do I know?) as the Christian thang to do and get your foot off our backs.
Ya know, judge not lest ye be?..that sorta thing I think that's somewhere in there?
Eating shrimp is an abomination too, I don't see Fred Phelps picketing Red Lobster Surf and Turf Unlimited Shrimp Night ;-)
Want to protect marriage? Cool!! Do something USEFUL for a change. I'd like to see the Christian Right turn their wrath on child molesters, child abuse, elder abuse (honor thy father and mother? isn't that one a the top 10?), spousal abuse, drug and alchohol abuse, cruelty to animals (often the first step towards violence to humans)...those things and more truly endanger marriage and the family.
Do that and we'll be right there with you doing fabulous makeovers of mega churches.
"But I do believe that sex, regardless of one's bent, should be taken very seriously. I, as does Dr. Laura, feel casual sex is extremely hurtful and damaging. I also feel no one, gays or straights, should have sex without a true comitment, legal is best. There are biological and moral reasons for this. Anyway, enough said. This is the viewpoint of Dr. Laura and many conservative Christians. Now before anyone starts, aren't I entitled to my viewpoint just as you are entitled to yours?"
Too late, I'm gonna start.
Yes you are entitled to them. And we are so lucky to have this respectful space to share views.
But I'm confused, someone explain to me like a 2 year old how we got from talking about the gay community as a whole (like there is one, because we're as diverse in oppinions as we are people) to casual sex? Interesting segue (sp?). How do you get here from there?
I don't believe in casual sex either. Some do I'm sure, sigh, no one I meet that's for sure. I mean you don't have to wear a tux, or formal gown to bed with me but....oh I see...
Oooh. You mean sex without commitment?
Oh, now whose fault is that that we can't marry?
Two drunk total strangers married in a drive through chapel in Reno by an Elvis impersonator have more rights than a committed long term gay couple.
If I should be so lucky as to meet the future Mrs Trek420 I would like to have the same rights as my heterosexual peers. Don't care what you call it, don't have to call it marriage but what I'm seeing preached from the pulpit of the Christian Right (which is neither if you ask me) is that my right to provide health care, to visit a spouse in a hospital, for her to inherit property from me...all this threatens your marriage somehow.
I don't think we threaten your relationships at all, rather it strengthens and stresses the importance of commitment.
Trek, I'm glad you picked up on those points and replied to them. This morning while I was swimming in a mad rage, I realized what made me the angriest about this thing is the perpetuation of the stereotype of gay = promiscuous, which is a complete non-sequitur.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trek420
Also, to break the stereotype, one need not be gay + liberal + feminist + atheist to share a dislike for misogynous, homophobic views. I just believe that everyone is entitled to get a shot at the good life.
And just for laughs (because, although certain points have to be made, what I love about TE is the fun) the famous open letter to Dr. Laura:
Dear Dr Laura:
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you however, regarding some of the specific laws and how best to follow them.
a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:&. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanness (Lev. 15: 19 - 24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
d) Lev 25: 44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
e) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?
f) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
g) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev19:27. How should they die?
h) I know from Lev. 11:6 - 8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves.
i) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of threads (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24: 10 - 16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? Lev 20:14.
I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging. Your devoted disciple and adoring fan.....
Thank you Abu (can we call you abu for short?). I wasn't quite sure what to say but find a good workout clears my head. So after I got back from the dojo I've always found I'd rather use wit, humor and hopefully some logic to make a point, I'm rarely angry, or not for long.
And so because I love the way we use humor here and just in time for Valentines day the top 15 Biblical Ways to get a Wife:
1. Find an attractive prisoner of war, bring her home, shave her head,
trim her nails, and give her new clothes. Then she's yours.
- (Deuteronomy 21:11-13)
2. Find a prostitute and marry her.
- Hosea (Hosea 1:1-3)
3. Find a man with seven daughters, and impress him by watering his flock.
- Moses (Exodus 2:16-21)
4. Purchase a piece of property, and get a woman as part of the deal.
- Boaz (Ruth 4:5-10)
5. Go to a party and hide. When the women come out to dance, grab one
and carry her off to be your wife.
- Benjaminites (Judges 21:19-25)
6. Have God create a wife for you while you sleep. Note: this will cost
you a rib.
- Adam (Genesis 2:19-24)
7. Agree to work seven years in exchange for a woman's hand in marriage.
Get tricked into marrying the wrong woman. Then work another seven
years for the woman you wanted to marry in the first place. That's right.
Fourteen years of toil for a woman.
- Jacob (Genesis 29:15-30)
8. Cut off 200 foreskins off of your future father-in-law's enemies and get
his daughter for a wife.
- David (I Samuel 18:27)
9. Even if no one is out there, just wander around a bit and you'll definitely
find someone. (It's all relative of course.)
- Cain (Genesis 4:16-17)
10. Become the emperor of a huge nation and hold a beauty contest.
- Xerxes or Ahasuerus (Esther 2:3-4)
11. When you see someone you like, go home and tell your parents,
I have seen a ...woman; now get her for me. If your parents question
your decision, simply say, Get her for me. She's the one for me.
- Samson (Judges 14:1-3)
12. Kill any husband and take HIS wife. (Prepare to lose your son though).
- David (2 Samuel 11)
13. Wait for your brother to die. Take his widow. (It's not just a good idea,
it's the law).
- Onan and Boaz (Deuteronomy or Leviticus, example in Ruth)
14. Don't be so picky. Make up for quality with quantity.
- Solomon (1 Kings 11:1-3)
15. A wife?...NOT!!!
- Paul (1 Corinthians 7:32-35)
The following is an email exchange. A friend sent me the original. Being a helpful person, I tried to answer all the queries raised. My responses are in italics.
Dear Dr. Laura:
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.
I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them.
1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev.1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
No -- just invite them to the barbeque.
2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
Well, that depends. Do you plan to sell her on Hollywood Blvd, or Rodeo Drive?
3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual cleanliness (Lev.15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
The Biblical reference is to her bed, her chair, and having sex with her. Just stay away from all chairs and beds except your own. You're only allowed to have sex with your wife, so if you don't know when she's menstruating, you aren't living in the same town with her and won't have much chance of sex, anyway.
4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
Your neighbor is wrong. Under NAFTA, you can purchase both Mexicans and Canadians. (They can also purchase us.) When you schedule the depreciation of your slaves, don't forget to account for Jubilee Year, when you have to free them.
5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. (Exodus 35:2) clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
Let your neighborhood priests and elders handle it. They may call you in to help with the stoning, so always keep a good pile of small rocks on hand.
6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?
They are equivalent. Anyone who would indulge in one abomination would indulge in the other. Just as anyone who smokes marijuana will eventually progress to heroin and the downfall of Western civilization.
7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
Sit in the back of the room, just to be safe.
8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?
This isn't a killing offense, but it might involve another barbeque. Be sure they invite you.
9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
Just take a ritual bath after the game, and remember, no sex for a week.
10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them (Lev.24:10-16)? Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
Well, blaspheming is a sin against the community and might bring the Lord's wrath down on the whole town. I'm afraid everyone is going to have to dig into their rock piles for this one. (Are you sure you want to admit to being related?)
I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.
You're welcome.
I knew it! Dr. Laura is lurking here.
thank you, thank you Dr. Laura, such sensible advice. And when you have that BBQ, invite me and I'll bring the quiche, yogurt and Perrier (that's all we eat BTW.)
::surfs off to buy all your books:: and now, back to cycling?
[QUOTE=Trek420]Thank you Abu (can we call you abu for short?). [QUOTE=Trek420]
Absolutely!
And now I have to get to work: First, replenish rock pile; Second, wait for BF to come home and have nice evening of stoning (the neighborhood is full of infidels!).
abuelitodimetu's agenda:
"And now I have to get to work: First, replenish rock pile; Second, wait for BF to come home and have nice evening of stoning (the neighborhood is full of infidels!)."
"So I would not feel so all alone
Everybody must get stoned"
~Bob Dylan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trek420
bciPam did not say gay sex = casual sex. She said sex should involve a commitment, no matter what type of relationship you're having.
Personally I am aghast by how this thread has disintegrated into what I perceive to be a bashing of conservatives.
Veronica
Hello Ladies,
I've had a few PMs on this thread, so I think I'm going to ask everyone to step back and take a deep breath. I am passing no judgements on anyone's opinions here, but since it's a OT thread and we all still want to be friends in the morning, perhaps we should let this thread cool off a bit?
Tailwinds,
Susan
Yeah but my b/f is still a slob...... :D :D :D :D :D
...and the stoning, can't believe I made a joke about that, that's so not funny and on a personal level that should never have left my fingers. I'm sorry.
I'll try to make this long story my Dad told me short.
When my Dad was a small child the family lived in Israel, then called Palestine. One day the small family, my Dad and my Aunt in the care of an Aunt and Uncle took a vacation to the hills. Along the way they passed through a small town.
Up to that point my Dads childhood impression of the Middle East is that it was a very tolerant place, Christians, Jews, Muslims, everyone pretty much getting along. But according to my Dad the British were stirring up trouble between the Muslims and Jews, Dad was pretty good at history, don't know all the details of that part so anyway they drive into this tiny town as afternoon prayers are getting over and the congregation (I guess called the same) leaves the Mosque.
Seeing the small Jewish family the car was surrounded by the angry mob and ..well things did not good for Trek being here today.
Just then the Muslim cleric came out and saw what was about to occur as my Dad described it strode into the mob at risk to his own life.
I recall my Dad telling me that the cleric said something like "we're Muslims, this is wrong, we don't kill innocent people". Anyway given that lesson the crowd parted, the little family left and here I am today.
This made an impression on me. Though I'm not observent my family background was very religious Jewish and my core belief is that Christians, Jews, Muslims, Budhists, Pagan, straights gays, cyclists, roller bladers (well maybe not them) ....our core beliefs values are much the same and no one religion has a monopoly on what's right, all have value.
Sorry for any upset that I have caused. Off to do the dishes which are piled up.
I second both of your statements Hell-uv. Well said.
I should not be doing this, I should just go about my business and not post this - but I can't help it. I realize that this thread maybe appear to be disheartening to some people, but what's going on here is actually a good thing (stay with me, here).
A post of this nature is not going to change someone's views or beliefs or heal deep seated wounds that have been inflicted by harmful ideologies. BUT we are all women here and we have a lot in common just in that fact alone. We are mothers, sisters, wives ("legal" or not), daughters and friends. Regardless of whom we choose to love, male or female, or whom we choose to worship - it is safe to say that most of us, being the nature of women, would stand up for those things we hold dear...and we'll stand strong. The problem is that we need to realize that each of us holds different things dear. We are all individuals and we all have the capibility to love.
What I found most hopeful is that the women who have posted here have all been obviously intelligent and they have been brave enough to stand up for what they believe in. That is admirable in every case.
What we need to do now is go back and look at our peers here - on this women based group -and see them as individuals, not as representatives of stereotypical groups we dislike.
This world is kind of a mess - let's work together to make it better and kinder. :)
Well said cari!
So, basically, you have to treat him like a kid... to get him to help around the house.Quote:
My parents actually used the trash bag method on me when I was a child and I have to admit it worked. So that's not a bad approach.
He's not going to change. From what you said, he has been this way for 5 years. Only you can change at this point.
The underlying issue here though... is that you want to feel like he respects you and what you do... by helping out.
When you do EVERYTHING... he never does ANYTHING around the house... you start to feel... TRAMPLED ON and ABUSED.
Yes, I lived through this in a 5 year marriage. Everytime I would ask for help... he would give me excuses why he couldn't do anything... and trust me... he did NOTHING. He barely worked half the time we were married.
This is the very reason why I do not want to live with or marry anyone again.
But...since you seem like you want to stay with him... :) ... you need to have him pay for 1/2 of a maid service... problem solved. (I tried this too, but my ex *****ed about the expense, so I had to pay for it myself... but not like he had a job or any money!)
KSH is right. You both been living together for 5 yrs, I don't see why he would change after all that time getting away with that. You must ask yourself one question: What if you both have kids? Do you think he would help with the house shores then? See... If you have a messy husband how do you explain your kids that they must pick up after themselves? :confused: Kids get to be very messy and are "hard work" (no pun intended ;) ), if you got into an argument with him now because you had a bad week it will get ugly with the little ones around. :(
Suggestions: Get a dog (since they are like kids sometimes) and see if you would be able to handle a dog and a slob. :D
Oh... almost forgot. The "trash treatment" works.
Thanks gals. It's not like he does nothing around the place. We're both painting the house to prep it for going on the market. It's the day to day "tidying up" that he completely sucks at. We have a dog, and 2 cats. Kids aren't on the horizon, for reasons other than them taking after their father in the cleaning dept :D
I'm hoping when we move and he owns half the house, he'll care more. Currently I'm on the mortgage here and he pays me rent, but he doesn't own anything. Not that that excuses anything, but I'm hoping since I can't change him that his perspective will change. He told me it wasn't personal when I told him it reflected his respect for my feelings. I did my best to convey that it indeed was, even if he didn't think so. It's not the act, it could not be cleaning but something else that bothered me, but the fact that it bothers me doesn't phase him. And that was the issue that was making me so pissed.
Anyway, I have lots of suggestions. This by no means is a deal breaker to the relationship. I'm not perfect either so he puts up with my respective crap. And he's wonderful in most every other way. I just had to rant and knew you would lend a good ear and give some nice tips :D
As for the other stuff on the thread, I'm not getting involved there ;)
Personally, I think that is a forlorn hope. Either he doesn't notice or doesn't care, and ownership is not going to change that.Quote:
Originally Posted by betagirl
My big question is, was he ever trained to clean? I have a theory -- and it's been borne out by nearly everyone who has answered the question -- that if there are more boys than girls in a family, the boys don't do housework (doing dishes is excluded from the theory). If there are more girls, the boys share in the housework. The theory only holds when the siblings are relatively close in age.
If he wasn't trained and he's not in the habit, he's not going to change unless it's to his advantage -- i.e., he'll lose something important to him if he doesn't mend his ways.
Not necessarily, maybe his mom was a clean freak and since he's grown old he can do whatever he wants. I would call those "rebel slobs" :) . In my hubby's case both his parents worked and went to school and also they were kind of slobish so he did not know any better. With a little patient and the fact that HE WANTED to do the right thing, things got "cleaner". I am a clean freak but not to the point of making his life miserable. I have to admit, he is a great husband and goes out of his way not to see me mad, and I spoil him A LOT :) .Quote:
Originally Posted by Eaglewalker
Now that is entirely possible, but I still don't think that house ownership is going to change anything -- especially not shared ownership.
I will admit to a strongly-held position, based on my own upbringing: I will not clean up after a man, nor do I think women should -- not when it means that the woman has the major burden of homemaking/housekeeping. It's one thing if homemaking is her job, so that she spends most of her time creating and sustaining the home, while he spends most of his time making the money that enables them to have a life, or if she does the inside work while he does the outside work, and the amount of work is roughly equivalent. What commonly happens, however, is that while both partners have equally demanding paid jobs, the woman takes on the vast majority of the home work, and ends up contributing far more time and energy than the man does. Even if he takes on the "outside work", it rarely takes as much time as the "inside work".
I don't have the studies at hand, but I believe this phenomenon is well-documented.
Eaglewalker "I don't have the studies at hand, but I believe this phenomenon is well-documented."
I think what you're talking about is this:
http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/sci_cul...2/sansell.html
I've heard it called "the Second Shift" by some.
This phenomena that mostly applies to women. Does this ever happen that you get home and are asked imediately "what's for dinner?" that kinda thing. I think most here would agree that whatever your relationship status or kind, communication so that no one person feel taken advantage of or over worked or over stressed is important.
Trek--
I think that cites most of the US studies. Though one line in that article gave me the giggles -- "she wakes early to start her 9am job and doesn't return home until 5pm."
Starts when? Returns when? Dang! I get up at 6am to start work by 8:30am and think myself lucky if I get home by 6:30pm. Rarely do I take lunch. I have at most half-an-hour a day to do a household chore or two -- the rest of the time is spent taking care of the critters (and part of this time is multi-tasking: working my remote job while I exercise the chinchillas). I have lost some eight or ten pounds in the last two weeks because I have not had time to eat properly, either at work or at home. My place is a wreck. This is a sorrow to me as I am by nature quite neat, but there's not much I can do about it until I get more of the rabbits into permanent homes.
(And before anyone asks, the critter care is because I have a house full of rescue rabbits, from this rescue: http://homepage.mac.com/lauriekay/PhotoAlbum7.html . The chinchillas are from another rescue. I don't collect or breed animals. I have five rabbit pens in what used to be my dining room, two in what used to be my living room, another in my study, plus my own "free range" rabbit, who is in the process of becoming best friends with the bun in the study.)
Hot thread. I don't want to burn my fingers, but can't resist.Quote:
Originally Posted by pkq
First, PKG. I feel there are way too many on the right who insist that Strongly Objecting to the iraq war is the same as being unpatriotic. On the contrary, I believe open discussion is very patriotic. It says I love this country but believe we've made a mistake and need to fix it. It most definitely does NOT disrespect those who died on 9-11. That was a tragedy and I'm tired of hearing it invoked as the reason we invaded Iraq. The two are completely unrelated. There is no link whatsoever. I think (no, I KNOW) the Iraq war is an abomination. The CIA (Paul Pillar head of info on iraq) has come out to state that Bush had them massage and cherry-pick the information they had about Iraq in order to back a decision for war which had already been made. Many generals have also publicly disagreed with war. But the right keeps up the loud spin proclamation: if you disagree with the war you are unpatriotic. What??? I support those troops more than the warmongers. They'd be a hell of a lot better off at home. They should never have gone there and we should stop killing more of our young men. Not to mention, since when does dissent = traitor? And battling terrorism? You're kidding right? Cuz I don't see how killing afghanis and iraqis has been helpful. We destroy their infrastructure so they don't have basic necessities like electricity etc. and then we call ourselves heros? It has increased the hatred towards us and doubtless increased the ranks of those who would perform evil upon us. And as for defending my way of life? I really don't think a president who believes he is above the law and can wire tap whenever whoever he wants is protecting my way of life. He is infringing upon it. Then renaming his activities anti-terroism is BS. Plus lying to start a war? Hmm, that doesn't defend my way of life either. My way of life includes peaceful coexistence with other countries. I heard a really good plan for peace. First, don't start any wars....
As for morality issues etc. I'm with trek420 et al. I'm married and straight. I simply cannot figure out how a gay/lesbian couple getting married defiles the sanctity of my marriage. Or anyone elses. Could someone explain that to me? Just the idea that state and federal politicians would consider adding to the lawbooks (or constitution) laws that are intrinsically prejudiced (i.e. no gay marriage) is beyond me. Did we not learn anything from those old laws forbidding interracial marriage? That's based on the bible too. By the way, I love the dear Dr. Laura letter. I think everyone needs to admit that no-one follows the bible to the letter. So note that while male homosexuality is forbidden in the text, female homosexuality is not. And alot of my clothing is made out of multiple fibers what with stretch jeans being so popular and all...
Conservative viewpoints are fine. But not when that includes forcing those beliefs upon others. So, if you think gay marriage is wrong then marry someone of the opposite sex. But let others who have made that choice (although homosexuality is not actually a choice) live their lives too.
OK. I've got my protective gear on now. I'm ready for the fallout.
I love the fact that we all have a place to voice our opinions, be they similar or not. We should all be thankful for that.
I have to add my Dr. Laura gripe. I used to really like alot of what she said -not all, but alot of the opinions about women wising up and not being doormats. However, one woman called in. She was pregnant, out of wedlock. She was already a single mother of a 12-year old. Dr. Laura strongly suggested, insisted in fact, that she give the baby up for adoption. 'How can you even consider raising this baby without the benefit of a father?' I was so outraged, and never listened to her again. What should this woman do with her 12-year-old? Give her up for adoption too? What should every divorced or widowed woman do? Give up their kids? Because by virtue of being single they are no longer fit to raise the child on their own? Argghhh! So, while Dr. Laura's advice, books and shows (yes, I have read her books) helped me get out of an awful marriage, sometimes she completely misses the mark. By a mile.
I could not have said it better. While I wanted to bring about some of those points myself, I feared that I had thrown enough fuel to the fire (with the Dr. Laura letter) by now. May I add one thing? The only individuals that were "bashed" are a loosely identified group of people that adhere to the outrageous beliefs espoused by Dr. Laura (as expressed in her quotes about discrimination) and those who would take to heart a literal interpretation of ancient scriptures. I do not want to put my foot in my mouth, but I do not think being socially conservative equates supporting those views... In fact, those who want to preserve traditional values of respect and neighborly love (as I myself do) would certainly find those views repugnant.Quote:
Originally Posted by doc
I am starting to feel like Lizzie in Pride and Prejudice:Quote:
Originally Posted by abuelitodimetu
And by the way, I don't think that this discussion is really very far off the original topic. What are we talking about, all the way through, but what we can and cannot tolerate in others? We don't like the thoughts of others, or the way they live their lives, or where they do or do not leave their dirty laundry; where and how can we express our opinions; are we entitled to interfere? Poor betagirl at least has the strength of position: she is sharing her life with the person whose opinions/habits/dishrags are in question!Quote:
"Oh! shocking!" cried Miss Bingley. "I never heard anything so abominable. How shall we punish him for such a speech?"
"Nothing so easy, if you have but the inclination," said Elizabeth. "We can all plague and punish one another. Tease him -- laugh at him. Intimate as you are, you must know how it is to be done."
"But upon my honour I do not. I do assure you that my intimacy has not yet taught me that. Tease calmness of temper and presence of mind! No, no -- I feel he may defy us there. And as to laughter, we will not expose ourselves, if you please, by attempting to laugh without a subject. Mr. Darcy may hug himself."
"Mr. Darcy is not to be laughed at!" cried Elizabeth. "That is an uncommon advantage, and uncommon I hope it will continue, for it would be a great loss to me to have many such acquaintance. I dearly love a laugh."
"Miss Bingley," said he, "has given me credit for more than can be. The wisest and the best of men -- nay, the wisest and best of their actions -- may be rendered ridiculous by a person whose first object in life is a joke."
"Certainly," replied Elizabeth -- "there are such people, but I hope I am not one of them. I hope I never ridicule what is wise or good. Follies and nonsense, whims and inconsistencies, do divert me, I own, and I laugh at them whenever I can. But these, I suppose, are precisely what you are without."
Sigh! What a great line quoted at such an appropriate moment. Jane AUsten never disappoints and anyone who can whip her lines out like that is forever admired by me. :D
Eaglewalker
OMG I just was looking at the conditions those bunnies you rescued were found in. Depolorable! Thank you for doing what you do.
But one good thing is that Betagirl, compared to that house your BF is Martha Stewart. Heck we're all Martha compared to that.
(Off-off-topic, I'm pleased to be able to report that the unfortunate couple are now in a decent home. They were allowed to keep one rabbit, a three-legged bun that sleeps with them. So it's not only the rabbits that were helped by this rescue.)
Quote:
Poor betagirl at least has the strength of position: she is sharing her life with the person whose opinions/habits/dishrags are in question!
Thanks Eaglewalker :) And yes, kudos for your rescue work.