Women in Sci-Fi and Fantasy/Game of Thrones

Cool thread - I haven't read or seen the series that got this started, but I have read some stuff that has good strong women as lead characters...

Kristen Britian's Green Rider series is full of strong women (not to mention they are good old fashioned page turners). It is set in a medieval type society, but gender roles are definitely not medieval.

I love Sherri Tepper - who couldn't be called anything but a feminist... most of her books center around either a strong female lead character or upside down gender roles.

Elizabeth Moons trilogy about Paksenarrion was quite good and she certainly qualifies as a strong woman.

and just for fun.... Scott Lynch's Gentleman Bastard series, while not particularly being about women or featuring them (but certainly the ones who appear are neither weak nor taken advantage of...), just because it is one of the most captivating pieces of fiction that I have read in a long, long time. He's got a real way with words and images.

I have to admit I do love Tolkein - though really just the Lord of the Rings... most of his other work I find rather like reading a history book - dry and dull.... Maybe it's just because I really started there - I think I was only in 5th grade the first time I read them, but every once in a while I still feel like pulling them out again.

I'll even admit to liking Anne McCaffrey - though I think her books generally read like SF romance novels.... guilty pleasure I guess... but her characters are always so likable, even the prickly ones.

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Originally Posted by tangentgirl

+100 on KSR.

Irulan, I've always wanted to ask, is your username from the Dune books?

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all these years and are you the first one to figure that out?:D

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Originally Posted by Irulan

all these years and are you the first one to figure that out?:D

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Yay!

Ok, I had more to say than yay...

This is a great topic, Irulan. Even though I don't particularly agree with the blog post that kicked it off, the portrayal of women in SF and fantasy books (and movies and tv) is near and dear to my heart.

This is especially true of science fiction. I would like to think that women have it better in the future, and that human beings - or at least human society - will continue to evolve past the ol' rape'n'pillage mentality. When I read sci-fi, I get much more offended when the women are objectified, than when I read something that's set in the past or in a past-like world. It's a little strange, since I gravitate towards the dystopian, which shouldn't be ideal, but whatever.

Take Robert Heinlein. Great writer, but, dangit, sometimes I'd like to resurrect him from the grave just to kick him in the nards. He's got all this stuff where he's living out his old man playboy fantasies in his books, and it gets pretty transparent. I can't help but like his books, but I do tend to read them saying, "Really, Robert? Really?"

And I recently read the first book of Isaac Asimov's Foundation series. On the flip side, that made me sad because there were basically no women in it at all. All these super smart people, and the women are invisible.

Thanks gals for some ideas for new authors to search out.

Anyone else on Goodreads? I find it's a great way to keep track of what I'm reading, get recs from friedns with similar tastes, and discover totally new stuff.

As for "guilty pleasure" lol that probably needs its own thread.

@tangentgirl re Heinlien... so true. One has to remember that the authors of his area were really groundbreaking, even if it seems so dated now.

I'd like to recommend Tamora Pierce's books, especially the Alanna the Lioness quartet and the Protector of the Small quartet. Both are about lady knights in the medieval world of Tortall. Another good series if you like medieval-set police procedurals is the Beka Cooper series - Terrier, Bloodhound, and the newest is Mastiff, which comes out in a couple of weeks.

Talk about girl power, these books have it.

Roxy

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Anyone else on Goodreads? I find it's a great way to keep track of what I'm reading, get recs from friedns with similar tastes, and discover totally new stuff.

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I am now. Really neat site. I wish I had thought of that idea.

I had dinner with Robert Jordan and his wife once when he was on a book tour in NZ and I was working as a buyer in a bookstore.

He admitted he didn't feel able to write female characters so hence no ladies in his first book of "The Wheel of Time" series. He said he was going to use his wife to help him write female characters. That might explain why he did not have many and they might not be very believible.

BTW Robert Jordan was a pen name, not his real name.

I love Elizabeth Moon books, both her fantasy and Sci-Fi women characters are very real, strong but with flaws. And they continue to learn. Like real people do.

So I finally read the first game of thrones book... It took me multiple tries to get past the first chapters for about a month till I actually got into the book.

I guess I could deal with the constant rape... The incestuous control of sisters by their brothers by nipple twisting and sex was just freaking weird. Does George R.R. Martin have a sister? Has anyone checked to make sure that he didn't molest her when young? I think part of the weirdness is reading the book and it just seeming like the author finds it exciting or titillating.

I liked the Wheel of Time series, even with the lack of female characters, until the whole Aes Sedai story line developed - that made me far too uncomfortable and while I finally managed to read through those volumes over the years I didn't care as much for the books in the series that were post-Aes Sedai...

For the C.J. Cherryh fans, I just happened across her blog. Homey, engaging, altogether charming. Never mind it's titled after one of her early books that has always been my favorite.

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Originally Posted by channlluv

....Another good series if you like medieval-set police procedurals is the Beka Cooper series - Terrier, Bloodhound, and the newest is Mastiff, which comes out in a couple of weeks.

Talk about girl power, these books have it.

Roxy

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Ooooh, I am reading Terrier now, and it is fantastic, thanks for the recommendation!

Ugh, I am still slogging my way through A Dance with Dragons. I really don't care about new characters, but I'm sticking it out so I can find out where is leaves off. This is excruciating though. I'm thinking this guy must have fired his editor.

Just discovered a new fantasy author. R. Scott Baker. While I've not yet finished "The Darkness That Comes Before", I am finding his writing to be refreshingly different. Very few female characters, at least so far, but this isn't a carbon copy of any other fantasy world/stories I've ridden in the past. The protagonist is both sorcerer and spy, and it is a promising beginning.

Also, on the advice of women in this thread, I've read several books by Tamora Pierce and found them enjoyable. I probably won't read all of them, but have read both of the Trickster books (Trickster's Choice, and Trickster's Queen) along with Terrier, Bloodhound and Mastiff. All well worth reading. I especially enjoyed the latter three.

Reviving this thread for a hat tip to a couple of authors I've just discovered.

Ann Leckie's first novel, Ancillary Justice, is one of the best hard SF novels I can remember reading, ever. I've been kind of buzzing through brain candy, and that one was like three books ago, but my mind keeps coming back to it. Some really interesting concepts of distributed intelligence.

Also, Nnedi Okorafor, best known as a YA writer (which, I've enjoyed her YA stuff too), but her first adult fantasy, Who Fears Death, completely blew me away. It's intense, violent, could trigger some people, but for heroic female characters, just wow.

Thanks for the suggestion of Ann Lecki. I'm going to see if I can find her on audible.

I've only skimmed this thread, but I didn't see any mention of Brandon Sanderson or Patrick Rothfuss. Two of the best contemporary fantasy authors IMO, though not many women characters.

Tolkien is my all time favorite author. I read the Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings for the first time when I was 8 and read the series almost once a year every year.

I admit I only read for entertainment. I get plenty of reality in my life and appreciate the break from it when I have the time to read.

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Originally Posted by thekarens

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Tolkien is my all time favorite author. I read the Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings for the first time when I was 8 and read the series almost once a year every year.

I admit I only read for entertainment. I get plenty of reality in my life and appreciate the break from it when I have the time to read.

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This! What movies I watch are for the same reason - so I love fantasy/sci-fi/fun/satirical/historical drama films. I've not found many contemporary fantasy authors I care for, the authors I've read have been too...well...dark for me though that may simply be a sign of the times with all of the real world events over the last decade. In my younger years I loved dark fantasy/horror fiction but not these days. Lovecraft and Ambrose Bierce were two of my favorites - though I must admit to still having a soft spot for Lovecraft when I am in the mood. He was certainly original! I will check out the two authors you mentioned - all of the contemporary fantasy authors CAN'T be dark!

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Originally Posted by Catrin

I will check out the two authors you mentioned - all of the contemporary fantasy authors CAN'T be dark!

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Just a warning ... don't read Who Fears Death if you don't want dark. Okorafor's YA stuff is much less wrenching.

For humorous fantasy, I really liked Max Gladstone's Three Parts Dead, and his new novel is on my list. Strong female protagonist, to keep the thread on topic.

If I want silly and occasionally over the top I read Piers Anthony's Xanth series. It's polar opposite of the type of fantasy I normally read. I guess I'd consider it my guilty pleasure.

I'm currently reading Simon Green Deathstalker series. My boys convinced me. I've already read his Nightside series and enjoyed it.

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Originally Posted by thekarens

If I want silly and occasionally over the top I read Piers Anthony's Xanth series. It's polar opposite of the type of fantasy I normally read. I guess I'd consider it my guilty pleasure.

I'm currently reading Simon Green Deathstalker series. My boys convinced me. I've already read his Nightside series and enjoyed it.

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I love Piers Anthony! I also really like his "Incarnations" series, those aren't as light but well written. The Nightshade series sounds interesting and have already checked out an e-book version from my library :) The Deathstalker series does as well, and both series appear to be quite different from each other - that is encouraging. I've recently given up on a series - Tad William's Otherland series. The premise is very interesting, but by the time I got to the last 700+ page book in the series I was just tired of it. That isn't like me, I don't mind long books and am a fast reader so I prefer them - but the writing must be up to it. When I got to the last book (>900 pages), I simply no longer cared about the characters and hung it up after the first ~300 pages.

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Originally Posted by thekarens

Tbut I didn't see any mention of Brandon Sanderson or Patrick Rothfuss. Two of the best contemporary fantasy authors IMO, though not many women characters.

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I got halfway through the second in his series and had to put it down as absolutely nothing was happening. 700 pages of nothing happening.

I'm always fascinated by the range and variety of what's out there for people to enjoy, and how we are all so different in what appeals to us.

I had the same reaction to many of Robin Hobbs' books. I love them, but I keep waiting for the plot to actually go somewhere substantial. It does, eventually, but in the meantime you'd better enjoy the characters!

I read a really good series recently by Lynne Flewelling - the Tamir Triad - full of very strong women and a bit of gender bending (it's crucial to the plot, so I won't give anything more away)
The Bone Doll's Twin
Hidden Warrior
The Oracle's Queen

She also did (does? not sure if there will be more) the Nightrunner series, which in addition to being just plain old good fantasy, also has well rounded and non-sterotypical LGBT characters

One thing I really loved about Ancillary Justice is that the narrator speaks a language that has no gender, and to "translate" the narrator's thoughts into English, Leckie uses generic feminine pronouns, even with respect to characters that she identifies as biologically male. It's pretty much incidental to the plot, other than a reinforcement of how many of the characters are distinctly post-human, but it forces the reader to confront their own gender stereotypes CONSTANTLY.

Catherine Asaro has some great sci-fi. Some really great and very strong female characters. It's an inter-stellar empire political/battle series of books. Some of her descriptions of faster-than-light travel and other technologies are short and very readable but there are a sentence or two in those sections which are very enjoyable if you took a few graduate classes in quantum mechanics. You don't need to know any science to appreciate the novels.

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Originally Posted by Kiwi Stoker

Robert Jordan ... admitted he didn't feel able to write female characters so hence no ladies in his first book of "The Wheel of Time" series. He said he was going to use his wife to help him write female characters.

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That just strikes me as incredibly lazy. He only knows one woman? And rather than get to know a few of the other half of the world's population, as maybe just some kind of prerequisite to being a writer, he wants the only woman he knows to do his job for him?

Contrast that with this, from a recent interview with Max Gladstone:

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When I’m writing a new character, especially in a fantasy, I try really hard to reject the idea that ol’ straight white normally-abled cis Max is the Default Norm Human. It’s just not true. I hard about who my characters are and what they could be, demographically speaking, and then build those character traits into the story.

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I think that saying "you write what you know" may apply. I don't see anything wrong with a writer not writing about women, men, blacks, whites, whatever if you don't know them/understand them or know enough of them to truly understand them.

Thanks for all of the reading suggestions, I've added some to my list. I also want to get back to writing myself - it really is for me more than anyone. I am considering joining a writers group this winter, we will see. Since I am pretty much confined at home right now, and I feel well enough to read (finally), I checked out an electronic version of one of the Nightside novels by Simon Green from my library recommended above. I do like how it is starting, perhaps I've a new series to read through :)

I have discovered that I enjoy novels by women more than I expected. Much better characters and more deeply and richly defined. The different point of view is refreshing as well.

Catrin - I don't know what you like to write, but please work on it.

Don

Hi Don,

Ok, I'm curious and I have to ask - why are you on a cycling forum for women? This isn't a closed forum, of course, so anyone can read and post, but you should be aware that we've had heated debates in the past about men participating. Some don't mind, but there are regulars here who are quite protective of the women-only atmosphere.

I probably shouldn't, so for those who mind, you can stop reading now :cool: and for the rest, apologies in advance for the meta drift - but the conjunction was just too glaring, to me.

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Originally Posted by lph

Some don't mind, but there are regulars here who are quite protective of the women-only atmosphere.

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Originally Posted by thekarens

I don't see anything wrong with a writer not writing about women, men, blacks, whites, whatever if you don't know them/understand them or know enough of them to truly understand them.

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Attachment 16791

Hey girl,

I know you get really tired of explaining male privilege to clueless guys. But thank you for doing it. The thing about privilege (whether it's based on race, sex, gender presentation, sexual orientation or whatever) is precisely that those who have it don't have to be aware of it. The test of character is, when someone learns to be aware of their privilege, what they do with that information.




I'm not innocent of this [me Oak, not Ryan Gosling]. I live in a pretty segregated place. I didn't choose it because it's segregated - all other things being equal, I'd be a lot happier living somewhere more racially diverse and egalitarian - but I'm well aware that I'm able to live there without major hassles, because I'm white. And that race was something I didn't have to think about when I chose this neighborhood. It's not something I'm proud of.

If a man wants to write women out of his own life, well, his male privilege allows him to live a pretty full life while doing that, and given the above, it's hard for me to object to someone's personal choices that way. But a writer … to me, their work is supposed to reflect the world - not necessarily the entire world, but a reasonable cross-section of it. For a writer to write women entirely out of his works, especially when he has to create a whole fictional world in which there are no women (rather than choosing a historical setting where segregation by sex was the norm) - and to be explicit about doing so because he doesn't feel that women are an important part of the world, or that getting to know people different from himself is a very big part of a writer's craft - to me, that's just not OK.

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. If you disagree with a writer and how he writes you can vote with your money and not read it. I'm fine with a writer not including women in a world he made up.

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Originally Posted by tangentgirl

Connie Willis! Hooray for Connie Willis and her time-traveling heroes, female and male. I wish her futures would happen. I'd like to be a historian.

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The Doomsday Book - one of my all time favorites

Hi -- I try not to make a pest of myself here since I understand it is on Team Estrogen. I can understand why some women want this to be restricted to women only so I rarely ever post anything. So why am I even a member of the forum?
1. I do cycle. (Until I crashed and cracked the frame. Will be looking for a new bike in the spring.)
2. I asked Renata over 2 years ago if I was OK to participate in the forums.
3. Other than these few posts I doubt I have posted more than a few times in the past 2 years.
3. Because of a medical issue I do wear sports bras when I cycle and run. I was shopping for a new bra and asked if she could recommend a few. I chose the Shock Absorber Run Sports bra.

OK ... let me break it down a little better ...

In our culture, places where women can come and hang out and feel like the default plane of existence is that we are going to be safe, heard, and respected, aren't the norm or the majority of places. That's what "male privilege" means - women can't just walk into a strange place, be it an online forum or a neighborhood bar, and expect that we're going to be taken seriously, or even that we're going to be safe. That's why many women find it really important to preserve an online space where we CAN expect that respect and safety.

This is a cultural phenomenon that goes way beyond major negative experiences of particular women, and is represented much more often in microaggressions. But as lph pointed out, in my memory we have had one male stalker on this forum targeting a particular female forum member, and several "creeps," although the admins have been stellar (as they are with most things) in nipping that stuff in the bud. That is all much LESS than most women have to deal with in our daily lives, and that's an illustration of why this space is important to us.

We also have a small number of men who participate respectfully. By "respectfully," I mean they add their experience or ask their questions about cycling when it's appropriate and gender-neutral - such as traffic skills or bike handling tips, for instance - but they don't belittle women's contributions, deny or ignore our experiences (neither of which you have done here, I'm not saying you have) ... or insert themselves into social conversations that have nothing to do with anything except women's experience of the world.

Some of us - me included - would be a lot more comfortable with your occasionally contributing to a thread like this *if* you'd participated more in threads related to this forum's raison d'être, cycling and other sports. It raises a question in lph's mind, and mine, as to why you would choose to hang out and talk about science fiction and fantasy here, with women who are strangers to you, in a women-oriented space. You wouldn't just walk into a physical bike shop and engage the first stranger you saw in a conversation about books, would you? Even more so if it were a bike shop that catered primarily to women, sold only women's clothing and primarily WSD and smaller-framed bikes, right? That's what Team Estrogen is. A bike-accessories shop that sells women's gear, with a great big lounge in the back where the customers hang out and chat. We get to know each other by talking about bikes or other sports, which is what brought us here in the first place, and as friendships develop, we step aside and shoot the sh*t about whatever, too.

So. I speak only for myself. I'm just a customer and a participant, not an admin. From conversations we've had here in the past, I'd say I'm pretty much in the middle of active forum participants, as to whether men's presence is welcome here. As you already know, the admins say men can join, and I personally am comfortable with that, though as lph said, there are also some who aren't. I hope I've explained the reasons why some women here are uncomfortable with the presence of men at all, and why some would be uncomfortable with your personal participation in this particular thread ... though the bottom line is, part of being a safe space is that forum members will challenge you if you violate our boundaries, whether you understand the reasons or not. It's basic good manners to learn and respect those boundaries.

Who is Renata and why does she get to speak for me?
I much prefer the Ski Diva model, where the forum is actually CLOSED to male participants. Guys have the whole fricken internet as their playground. Why can't we have one little corner all to ourselves?

…… being the internet and basically being anonymous any of us could pretend to be something we are not… Don could have simply registered as Dawn and no one would have any idea he wasn't a she. At least he was honest about it.

Does anyone here read Jasper FForde? The Thursday Next series are fantasy of sorts, as the main character travels between the book world and the real world. And although she's written in the tough girl mode in places, in other places she has to worry about things like arranging child care while saving the world.
I've re-read the series several times, as there always seems to be something I notice that didn't come to my attention the previous readings. And of course, there's a lot of wit and humour woven in.

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Originally Posted by Don Deitz

Hi -- I try not to make a pest of myself here since I understand it is on Team Estrogen. I can understand why some women want this to be restricted to women only so I rarely ever post anything. So why am I even a member of the forum?
1. I do cycle. (Until I crashed and cracked the frame. Will be looking for a new bike in the spring.)
2. I asked Renata over 2 years ago if I was OK to participate in the forums.
3. Other than these few posts I doubt I have posted more than a few times in the past 2 years.
3. Because of a medical issue I do wear sports bras when I cycle and run. I was shopping for a new bra and asked if she could recommend a few. I chose the Shock Absorber Run Sports bra.

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Don, you may be a terrific guy, and I bear you no ill-will. But your post does not answer my question. Cycling and needing a bra are not reasons for a guy to join a womens forum. Thank you, Oak, for a thoughtful and well-written post on the subject. To add to it - there are some legitimate reasons for a guy to join a womens forum, and there are some pretty creepy reasons. Unfortunately, we've seen both.

Struggling back on topic, and I'll try to stay there: I've done sooo little reading recently because of our kitchen remodeling. But I've been reading this thread and noting down tips. I'm looking forward to a hot date with an online bookstore in a week or two, armed with recommendations ;-)

I read a couple of Fforde's early novels and thought they were hilarious, but I'm really not conversant with Victorian novels, and I think one needs to be, to appreciate his work. [Weird for an English major. I was happiest with pre-Norman homilists and poets. So sue me. :cool:]

To stay on topic, obviously his protagonist is a woman, and from what I remember from my limited POV and after a very long time, it did seem to me that perhaps he gives agency to minor characters, many of them female, who may have lacked any in the original novels.