BTW - Zia, you got some funky feet! 3rd longer than 1st! Ok, now we're talking structural funny business! (not a posture problem, eh?)
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BTW - Zia, you got some funky feet! 3rd longer than 1st! Ok, now we're talking structural funny business! (not a posture problem, eh?)
Sweet. Thanks (((((Knot))))) you're the best! :D
Thanks Knot:)
Well I don't know about that... every time I visit southern California it seems like everyone else, regardless of race or sex, has spontaneously mutated into blondes. I'm afraid to stay too long in case it happens to me. It could be spreading to the rest of the country. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by KnottedYet
Oh, don't make me post pictures. I look like I'm missing a toe. They're pretty ugly to look at... :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by KnottedYet
I'm just amazed we've managed to fill three pages of discussion about FOOT BONES!
Hon, there have to be at least 20 pages on this board about @ss bones. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by zia
Not to mention the beloved Diva cup......:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by OakLeaf
Knot, thanks for posting those exercises! My met arch disappeared when I was 26 so I'm guessing my problems are not as structural as I have been led to believe. I'm going to give that program a try.
Well I don't have an X-ray to know how long the bones actually are, but just from looking at my feet, my 3rd met heads are farther from my ankles than the 1st, too. Actually on the left, 2, 3 and 4 are pretty much the same length, 1 and 5 are about equal. Right side's a little bit better.
But stretching and strengthening will still help, right? Between that and digging on my calves trying to work out these trigger points, I'm going to be half chimpanzee before it's over...
Wish I knew a good PT around here. There's a trainer I might talk to when I get down south.
It's interesting what an x-ray can tell you -- looking at my feet, it looks like my joints are aligned in a fairly gentle arc, but when I had my feet x-rayed some years ago, the most striking thing was that my first metatarsal was much shorter than I would have guessed.
OakLeaf, I just got back from trigger point therapy. The therapist recommended using medical-grade felt as padding. I guess it's denser than foam and lasts longer. This web site http://eGeneralMedical.com has some in 1/16, 1/8, and 1/4 inch thickness, though you have to buy LOTS of it, so not cheap -- around $35. She gave me some to experiment with in my shoes...
Good luck!
Zia -Quote:
Originally Posted by zia
The met pads that I've been using are made of felt (don't know if it's medical grade, though). You might want to give these a try as a cheaper option to buying a boatload of medical grade felt padding.
http://www.hapad.com/hapadonline/pro...cat=278&page=1
Ah, interesting, except I want something for just under my first metatarsal, though I suppose I could trim those down... Thank you!
Neoprene's pretty darn dense, though not as dense as felt. I figure it has roughly the same amount of give as my shoes' outsoles, though more than my orthotics. Might be hard to find an old mouse pad thinner than 3-4 mm though.
Giving my old, stinky, too-small, kayaking wetsuit a second look...Quote:
Originally Posted by OakLeaf
Oakleaf -- thought you and others watching this thread might find this article interesting:
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/1...etter-for-you/
So how are the exercises going, ladies?
My experiences so far:
(1) Oddly, it's the skin over the top of my foot that needs to stretch. The internal structures don't seem to lack flexibility, but the skin sure pulls when I stretch.
(2) My feet are weaker than I thought. :o I'm pretty good at picking stuff up with my toes - and I know wearing Crocs has strengthened my feet quite a bit - but I definitely get some fatigue with the exercises.
(3) The biggest impediment to doing the exercises is taking my socks off in late October - especially with my history of frostbite. Brrrrrrrr. Where are my wool Injinjis???
I am so psyched to find these pages of discussion about metatarsal pain---I have morton's foot, hammer toe, and big ole bunions--SO I'm trying to get the whole padding idea down, i've read through all of these pages @ 3 times, ordered the pads--2 kind, one from Pro Tec and the the HAdpad ones---thanks everyone for all the amazing info. I still can't figure out where exactly to put the padding--and I can't figure out how to figure it out?? What exactly am I going for ( ob-vee pain reduction!!) in terms of sensation? My first met head is way out of whack so padding under that? My biggest pain issue is on my bike and I've moved around my Look cleats all over but haven't figured out what is best ( yet:D) Though it's tempting to get rid of the clipless pedals I can't imagine not being clipped in and being able to get any real power? I hope this thread keeps going, the more input the better!!!
So far, so good. What I notice is that when spread my toes, I feel like I have more control in my right foot than my left.
I feel like it's getting incrementally easier to transfer my weight to my first met rather than my second met when I'm walking on carpet.
This has me wondering about foot exercises that I could be doing for my flat feet, and oh heck, it probably wouldn't hurt to be doing some ankle exercises too. I've been putting off buying/making a balance board for that very purpose.
Incidentally, I've been shopping for a new Pilates studio and one of the places I've checked out also incorporates some Yamuna body rolling into their classes. They've got these bumpy half-spheres called "wakers" that you stand on, on different parts of your foot. They're great for developing awareness of how you distribute your weight around your foot, and for a general massage of the bottoms of your feet! I'm thinking I might investigate this a little more.
Jasmine, welcome to the discussion. I haven't messed with any of my padding yet. One thing at a time for me.
ETA: Oakleaf, I think for the first time I'm considering buying a pair of Injinjis!
Thanks for the welcome, I have a set of those little Yamuna foot bumpy things, actually I have one, my puppy chewed the other, they are cool and/but painful to get used to. Great for working out soreness and knots but hard to use when pain is acute.
Hi Jasmine...
Listen, Knot knows what she's talking about. The rest of us are just muddling our way through, trying self-help solutions because we don't have access to a competent professional.
So if you don't have anything else keeping you from good posture other than your 1st MT being shorter than the second one, I'd recommend taking her advice.
If you have something else structural keeping you from good posture - as Zia does, and I still need to find someone to actually look at my feet - then pad away and/or try to find a professional who can help you. If not, then I'd really urge you to take Knot's advice.
yah thanks Oakleaf and thanks Knot I am determined to do all of Knot's foot exercises and recommendations re padding---i have gone to so many "professionals" who look at my feet and gasp and push surgery---so far this thread is the most helpful thing I have come across ever:)
Follow this link: http://www.triggerpointbook.com/mortons.htm and look at Figure 3. I bought new insoles today, and have it perfect on one foot, still tweaking the other. The perfect foot leaves me with a slight sensation of padding directly beneath the first metatarsal, with the weight of that area being transferred directly onto the pad. My "off" one feels too far to the side, like my foot is sliding off, a little.Quote:
Originally Posted by jasmine
Remember the pads should go under the insoles. I'm also experimenting with thickness. I'm at 1/8" right now. That feels about right. Another knee pain free five miles today -- absolutely a miracle, considering I literally had to crawl up the stairs after running a 10K this summer!
Good luck, and report back!
That's been my experience, too -- I've basically been told (by podiatrists) that custom orthotics can be used to correct some of my mechanics and to slow down the development of my bunions, but I will probably need surgery someday.Quote:
Originally Posted by jasmine
I had asked about exercises for my arches was told that other than orthotics, there wasn't anything else to be done. Don't get me wrong, the orthotics have been great, but it seems that maybe exercise and stretching has not been part of the training of the podiatrists that I've gone to in the past.
Maybe in the future I need to consult a doctor or other professional with a different set of training/broader range of skills in this area. I'm not at that point right now, but I think it goes to show that it's important to really research the professionals that you consult, which can be tough if you don't even really know what you're looking for.
Hey I just got a pair of Keen wool clogs--maybe they are called Hybrid's not sure--anyway they are far and above the most comfortable shoes I've worn for my poor achin feet in a long time! It's such a big deal for me to find shoes that feel good I thought I'd share:D
ooo, cool! I've had good luck with Keens, but I didn't know they made wool clogs! Time to start writing out my Christmas wish list . . . :)
So I have an interesting post-script to this thread. During the course of this thread, my knee pain was nearly 100% eliminated by placing a small pad under my first metatarsal.
Well.
I have been upping my mileage to train for a half marathon, and was very worried after a 9-mile run. My right knee was in intense pain from 5 miles on, and I was concerned 13.1 just wasn't going to be possible.
Nonetheless, I scheduled a 12-miler with my running partner and crossed my fingers for the best. Right before the run, I decided to check the pads I'd put under my insoles, and -- lo and behold -- the right one was missing! I'd been fiddling with the shoes and forgotten that side. I put a new pad on, ran 12 -- at a brisk pace! -- and had no kneed pain at all, and felt great the next day! (Last August, pre-padding, my knees hurt so much I literally had to crawl up stairs after my first Olympic Tri.)
Maybe it was just my body adjusting, but, given my 20 years of fairly persistent knee pain, my bet's on the Morton's Foot diagnosis and subsequent insole changes.
Just thought I'd share.
... I'll update too in case anyone's missed my posts from the general running thread...
I'm experimenting with barefoot running, just a weetie little bit so far. Between Knott's exercises, the hip exercises my own PT has me doing, yoga, and the muscle strengthening I got from putting the pads in my walking-around shoes... I started to feel like I was ready to try it. So far, so good, but just a little so far. With the marathon looming, barefooting isn't my #1 focus right now, but I'll continue to build.
Still, it's pretty apparent that all the cr*p people have been putting in my shoes since I was six years old has only exacerbated my problems. It's impossible to tell at 44 years' remove, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was starting to wear shoes that caused my problems to begin with. It's going to take a lot of work to undo 44 years of imbalances, but little by little.
Zia, that's so great that you've had such positive results with that little pad!
Oakleaf, hope the marathon training continues to go well.
I've been struggling a bit. I was pretty religious about doing Knott's exercises for about a month, and then we got really busy moving out of temp housing and settling in to our new place. I usually do the exercises 3-4x a day, but rarely 6. Definitely have increased flexibility in my met arches, especially on the right (not surprising, I'm right-footed, so that foot seems to work a little better).
Other things I'm doing: I work on the trigger points in my shins and calves when I'm watching TV or reading in bed. I've also added in that exercise where you scrunch up a towel using your toes and then push it away, just the toes. I try to do that a couple of times a day. I'm looking to find a balance board/wobble board so that I can add some ankle strengthening/proprioception work.
The barefoot running thing is intriguing but I thought I'd try barefoot walking first, so I've ditched the Birkenstocks I usually wear inside and try to be conscious of my foot posture as I move around the house. I've reduced my use of Rx orthotics and so far no problems. I've been keeping my feet warm this winter wearing Ugg clogs or snowboots, and my orthotics don't fit into either, so it's been great to have that option!
OMG you guys! What perfect timing to bring this thread back up!
I consulted on a patient today who had a classic Morton's foot, with a profoundly dropped 2nd met head and the associated ills.
She had the intense orthotics and the intense shoes... but her over-all leg posture was excellent, especially barefoot.
She wasn't my patient, so I couldn't tell her "do the exact opposite of what you've been doing, and change it soon!" but I gave her a couple websites and strongly suggested she take a look at them.
I used to work closely with a podiatrist who was very anti-surgery. He inspired me and he taught me so much. Working with his patients was a joy, because he let me get creative with treatments and was always willing to teach me, to the point of letting me accompany patients to their appointments with him.
Feet are amazing and beautiful things, and given their 'druthers, they will work! Don't be afraid to try stuff. You'll know pretty quickly if it is going to help you or hinder you.
Glad this thread popped back up too Knot. I had thought to revive it myself because I had something to add.
I had been seeing a podiatrist since September for what he finally diagnosed as Morton's Foot. First he diagnosed a stress fracture (which I'm not sure now that I had), told me to stop running for 6 weeks and sold me a very expensive pair of orthontics. Then he told me he had never heard of Morton's Foot or Morton's Toe and told me I was confusing it with Morton's Neuroma, then a month later tells me I had Morton's Toe, gives me a cortisone shot, talks to me about surgery and tells me to stop running again. That was January and my last visit to him. I went to see a chiropractor instead who is amazing. The adjustments, therapy and pressure point massage have fixed the problem--without drugs or surgery! I'm training for a half marathon and up to running 5 miles and the foot is doing fine (it's everything else that hurts --Ha! Ha!)
Oh, and by the way, the chiropractor told me what my problem was the minute he saw my foot and then looked at the x-ray. He also gave me the same exercises to do that Knot had suggested. The podiatrist told me to never, ever walk barefoot and not to even put shoes on that didn't have the orthontics in them. Gee whiz!
The other thing I've been doing, self-prescribed, is working to strengthen the muscles in the anterior lower leg. As my calves loosen up, it's become clear that my calves were doing all the work holding me upright in a slight forward lean, and that the dorsiflexor muscles are extremely weak. Right now I can work the muscles to fatigue without resistance, just sitting at the computer like right now. ;)
Hello!
I just signed up to this forum just to post in this thread. I am hoping any of the people who started to wear some sort of correction are still subscribed to this thread . If so, please, please respond!
Anyone else with Morton's foot who is wearing or who has tried correction, I would really appreciate hearing from you too.
Did the correction work long term?
Did you continue biking/running long term?
or anything else.
For me, I did a couple of "double centuries" from Ottawa to Kingston return about 20 years ago and never had a problem. I now do a spin class about once a week and no problem.
But I took up Ballet & Modern dance a couple of years ago and have discovered I have Morton's feet and have a big problem now!. Ballet & Modern dance would be considered like barefoot running because we are basically in bare feet. Except with ballet, the slippers have a pleat gathering on the bottom of the slipper which is about 1/8 inch thick so it is like dancing on a couple of quarters stacked right under the second metatartsal joint. Ouch! It doesn't hurt non-Mortoners because they don't step on the pleat but for people like me it's like stepping on a stone.
Now even walking barefoot hurts a bit- but I am hoping it is just temporarily swollen.
So I am very interested in any longer (or shorter) term stories. I have researched it all but have not come across and long term feedback. Do people have success with the corrections and then just stop talking about it or do they give up ?
I have been to 5 experts so far. 2 say orthotics and don't waste time on exercises. 2 say exercises & training the big toe and possibly orthotics.
thanx & I look forward to hearing from you!
I've been taking Knott's advice and so far it's working out great.
Foot exercises (also hip exercises) - yoga, plus some isolation exercises.
Ditched the custom orthotics (and all other medial arch support).
Metatarsal domes in my running shoes for the time being, but not in my other shoes. I foresee the day when I won't need those - I can walk and stand for hours in flat shoes now - but I can't run without them, yet. (Actually it's been months since I tried, but I'm not changing anything until after my second marathon, October 17.)
Shoes long enough for my toes (and also wide enough for my forefeet, but that's not necessarily related).
General postural work to correct the forward lean that resulted from the unstable base. (yoga again, especially the backbends, and just really being aware of my posture as often as I can).
None of this is an overnight miracle, but I expected it to take some time and work. Learning that my body can heal itself if I learn to stop hurting it ... priceless. :)
Thanx Oakleaf! I was hoping you were still around :)
I am also wearing metatarsal pads.
I really hesitate to build up the area under my big toe & big toe joint as the whole Morton's foot theory suggests. I don't know why those Morton's inserts aren't mainstream- why just sold on an internet site?. And theories are just that- theories.
Which is why I am hoping to hear from someone who has worn them long term.
Have you been successful in training yourself to step down and toe off on your big toe?
Is your first toe knuckle closer to your body than the second toe knuckle? You can see by putting your foot over a tennis ball to make the knuckles show.
Good luck with your Marathon!! I did a couple of 10k's in the past- that was enough for me!!
I'm training myself not to toe off at all. My calves were sooooo over-stressed. I'm getting there....Quote:
Originally Posted by Morticia
Flexibility in my feet is/was a huge issue. When I started I couldn't even begin to get the head of my first MT on the ground with my ankles neutral. The stretches Knott recommended are helping, and so is rolling out the trigger points in my feet on a spiky stick or spiky ball. That's one thing I forgot to mention in the last post that has been really, really helpful.
Yep, I thought that was the definition of Morton's foot.Quote:
Is your first toe knuckle closer to your body than the second toe knuckle?
Thank you! I'm feeling a little odd about it right now so the encouragement is welcome. :oQuote:
Good luck with your Marathon!!
hmmm... there is a slight forward lean in ballet. I'm confused. but thanx for mentioning this. My calves are chronically tight.Quote:
Originally Posted by OakLeaf
Wow, that`s huge! For me, I have to keep my 1st MT head on the ground when in "demi pointe" (tip toes). That is how this whole thing started for me, I would roll outwards off my first MT onto my second.Quote:
Originally Posted by OakLeaf
Quote:
Originally Posted by OakLeaf
ok, so just to make sure, this is the recommended:
Quote:
Originally Posted by KnottedYet
I don`t really feel anything when doing the taco shell stretch.. do you feel anything?
just fyi, I had a bit of plantar faciitis in my other foot and used the underside of a car mat (the removeable mat ) laid over a hard block, and OMG it was good! I haven`t been using it for this- didn`t know, so thanx.Quote:
Originally Posted by OakLeaf
One of my PT`s also has me doing a `bowstring stretch`. You sit down, grab foot in hand, bend the big toe and then press in on the flexor hallux longus tendon.
I just wanted to make sure- there is confusion out there- it is possible to have a longer second toe but not have a Morton's foot. So I am hopeful then because you have a real Morton's foot. I do too.Quote:
Originally Posted by OakLeaf
hmmm, why odd, I think it is great :)Quote:
Originally Posted by OakLeaf
Did the correction work long term?
I have custom orthotics, which never addressed my Morton's Foot issue specifically. Exactly a year ago, I put 3 mm padding beneath my first metatarsal in my running and biking shoes. My knee pain has been greatly reduced!
Did you continue biking/running long term?
Oddly, that little bit of padding has made a huge difference. I'm running faster than I ever have before with only occasional knee pain. I have never had much pain cycling, but my feet feel more "even" on the pedals, if that makes sense.
I have been fooling around with my own padding, toe spacers, massage, foot exercises--and am much better off ( also thanks to reading all these posts, esp knottedYet) than anything podiatrist or orthopedist says --which is essentially surgery!! Wearing toe spacers functionally has really helped move me along, this was suggested to me by structural integrationist wonderful person and it makes sense. So yup, trust your own knowings and don't listen to naysayers! Believe you can get better and you will:)
@Zia, this thread isn't that old. ;)
I ditched the pads under the first MTs within a few months. If anything, they were making my feet weaker and more rigid than the custom orthotics did.
The point of all this is to get your feet both strong and flexible enough that the parts of your feet that are supposed to support you, actually are supporting you - getting your weight equally in your first and fifth met heads and both sides of your heels, with your ankles in neutral. That takes foot and hip strength, as well as foot flexibility.
I read something a while back, and I can't remember whether it was something Knott said or someone else, but it was along the lines of, "If someone said they can't lift five pounds, would your first suggestion be putting their arms in a cast permanently?" That's what orthotics do - it's like casting your feet - and while a few people obviously do need them, it makes no sense to do that before you've even tried letting your body do what it was born to do.
Now, if a quack ortho put you in orthotics when you were six years old, old biomechanics die hard, weak muscles take time to strengthen, and anything that happens in your feet has consequences all the way up your postural chain. So I'm not "there" yet by any means. I'm still wearing the metatarsal arch supports in my running shoes (they support the second through fourth mets so the middles of my feet don't collapse). I have to mentally give myself posture corrections and tell myself to stop toeing off whenever I do aerobics, stand or walk. Head over shoulders, shoulders over hips, hips over knees, knees over heels. Much of the corrections have to do with correcting a forward lean and a flattened lumbar curve - yoga has been great for this. I can stand for hours barefoot or in flat shoes now, and I'll be tired, but I won't have the back or foot pain I used to get. :) So I can see the day when I'll be able to run without the domes, too.
As far as running, my second marathon is this Sunday. :eek: As far as cycling, I haven't been riding nearly as much this year, only about 2500 miles, but that's not because of any physical issues. I've also been correcting issues on the bike, but not directly related to my feet. Still, it's been instructive, because on the bike, learning to stop ankling, and lowering my saddle to an appropriate height, have had to happen in tandem, little by little. Now my Achilles, my calves and my knees are all happy on the bike. :) It's a good parallel for all the different corrections that are happening in my posture.