Pretty much what I said to her, except I said "athlete" instead of "sprinter." Cripes, we all know that swimmers have more body fat than any other athletes, and we've all seen Dara Torres' six-pack.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trek420
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Pretty much what I said to her, except I said "athlete" instead of "sprinter." Cripes, we all know that swimmers have more body fat than any other athletes, and we've all seen Dara Torres' six-pack.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trek420
Yes, and her biceps and her quads and her delts and near total lack of bQQbs and have you seen her lats???? ...... but she's a Mom so nobody gives her any guff nor questions her femininity. :rolleyes:
So I ask is a woman athlete at the elite level held to a different standard than men that one obviously has to be strong enough to compete at that level yet look girly somehow. Are there any of us here at any level that we ride (and some here are competitive so I'd love to hear the pro's and semi pro chime in) who have felt this as a conflict.
And if you don't feel it's any conflict how do you juggle strength/power and femininity?
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by Trek420
Hopefully whatever the outcome for this 18 yr. old athletic star, she will have unconditional support from her loved ones who have known her the longest..for years ahead.
Of course, her upper body fit physicality and perceived flat-chest ....I am willing to bet you that quite a number of women with small or near-non-existent developed mature breasts don't wear the crop tight track tanktops precisely because it flattens them out. Those things do great things to me in the change room....I look like a 11 yr. old up top, not 50 yr. Same effect for a one piece swimming suit. :p
I'm hoping all this negative hoorah from competition judges...may be wrong. Maybe we'll see more women just wear it for comfort/speed, etc. instead of being concerned about looking masculine/butch.
Alot of women's faces if they cut their hair very short or have it all pulled back from face...would make them look quite masculine..plus forgetting to pluck/bleach facial hair.
Chanelluv: By the way, with your new avatar pic, you look totally different without the helmet and sunglasses. I had a different image of you altogether.
How wrong we can be! :rolleyes:
Warning: OT....Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Silver
I was going to ignore you, Mr. Silver, but for some reason I feel compelled to respond. You, as a white male, no matter how empathetic you are, will ever be able to understand large segments of the population. I'm white, but if the black community feels that Semenya is being judged unfairly due to her race, it isn't my place to say "don't play the race card", it is my place to ask them why they feel so. It is my place to try to understand. With all people under all circumstances, we have to remember that scars run deep and what may seem to be benign to us, may be a trigger. Racism is a very painful scar.
http://www.womanist-musings.com/2009...dominates.html
Back OT....
When a male dominates his sport (and doping has been disproved) we jump up and down and grant a god-like status. On the other hand, when a woman dominates her sport, she doesn't just have to fight accusations of doping, she has to "prove she's a woman". That is just wrong.
Semenya didn't "come out of no where". If you read the short bios that don't focus on her appearance, you discover that she's been running all her life and she's been playing on teams with boys. Recently, she has started with a coach and her performance jumped.
Now, any one of us female cyclists can attest that riding with the boys will make you stronger. And, many of us here, female and male, will attest to the amazing performance gain you can see initially under the tutelage of a good coach. So, should the world be that surprised at a jump in performance? I think not. But, then, I find this whole affair to be disturbing.
Important Mr. Silver to understand it is within living memory of non-white women who are older here, that it wasn't until around the late 1970's and onward, where we started to see alot more non-white female models in fashion publications here in North America. It's when marketers woke up and realized the demographics of their audience /potential customer base in North America. I keep on saying North America, because as a teenager I would see the fashion magazines from Hong Kong with their Chinese/Asian models and wonder why on earth people like them were not showing up in English language media.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorn
There is a subtle standard certainly in the fashion world, acting/drama world and in popular women's spectator sports involving womanly grace (ie. figure skating, gymnastics, synchronized swimming, ballet, dance etc.), that beauty/what is considered womanly is: long legs, tall, female-looking face preferably with "refined features of lips not too thick, etc., beautiful skin, breasts, narrow waist, a bum not too big, etc.
Thankfully the beauty /womanly desirable standard now is bit more "elastic" these days, but not a whole lot.
If you don't believe me...then here is a story:
Last year, one of engineers from Philippines she complained to me she was getting too dark from all the sun here at our construction site. She said didn't look nice on her. STILL, having paler/whiter skin is seen as better than something richer in hue.
This woman was university educated and over 35.
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Let's look at who else has had gender questioned (in track): A polish sprinter, Eva Klobukowska and an Indian runner, Santhi Soundarajan. So, those who have a tendency to blame everything on race will surely do so, but they're not correct. (By the way, though they're hard to find on the net, the one photo I saw of Eva on CNN showed a not-very-masculine blonde-haired girl. Probably had/has blue eyes, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorn
My (step)sister spent a lot of her early life blaming everything on race. She then found greater happiness when she realized that the only person she was punishing was herself; by blaming everything on race, she was actually holding herself back. She decided, Am I being unfairly judged sometimes because of my race? Surely. But just as often I'm probably not, so why go around with this chip on my shoulder? She launched her life fantastically after that epiphany.
Anyway, I've been reading quite a bit on this case... and this is the first and only article I've found bringing race into it. Why? Probably because it's the only article to ignore that all athletes at the top of their game are questioned in one way or another, regardless of gender or ethnicity. Every single one.
Maybe she just had a personal preference. Why do we always read so much into these things? My (step)sister would lay out and tan her naturally dark skin. (She said that, without enough sun, her skin would look "pisswater yellow". Her skin always looked lovely to me, but I was just jealous because I have this easily-burned, nearly-never-tanned German skin.)Quote:
Originally Posted by shootingstar
In many cultures, including our own, there is a definite perception that white skin is better. This isn't about personal preferences, did you read the Autobiography of Malcolm X? He was the favored child because his skin was just a shade lighter than the rest of his siblings.Quote:
Originally Posted by witeowl
I'd love to have darker skin too, but I'm not blind to the advantages I've had for being caucasian in this crazy world we live.
I understand completely that there is/was, for a very long time, a desire for people of color in the U.S. to look "whiter", preferably so that they could "pass". But, is this universally because of the perceived (and/or real) dominance of white people? I don't know that it always is. In parts of Africa, people separate themselves into classes based on appearance (in subtle ways that my U.S. eye can't see). White people, also, find particular differences preferable which have nothing to do with "looking whiter" (long legs, etc.).Quote:
Originally Posted by Biciclista
Regarding advantages? No, I don't ignore those. But not everything comes down to appearance. I spent years blaming various flaws in my life to people treating me differently because I was so overweight. I've lost about sixty pounds so far and... guess what... people are treating me the same. We don't always see the world accurately, and often blame our problems on the wrong thing.
My neighbors across the street can easily complain that my anger at their loud music is because I "don't like Mexicans." I'd be surprised if they don't talk about me like I'm a racist gringa. But guess what? I get just as angry when the wife blasts her American pop music as when I do when the husband blasts his Mexican music. I'd simply like to enjoy peace and quiet within my own home, and it doesn't matter whether or not I like their music and I certainly could care less about their skin color or ethnicity. But they likely interpret my anger differently.
Malcolm X attributed his "favorite" status to his skin color? From his father, perhaps, but he claims that his mother was harsher on him because of his skin color. In any case, can we not agree that Malcolm X had a bit of a chip on his shoulder? Not that he was always wrong, mind you, but he certainly was one to see things in the worst light possible.
Nevertheless, I don't think that my sister is/was the only black woman in history who preferred her skin to be darker. I stand by my point that the motivation of the woman in shootingstar's anecdote may have just been an issue of personal preference.
Quote:
Originally Posted by witeowl
I'm not sure that racism plays much of a factor in the Semenya issue... if a white girl looked that masculine, I think there's be an issue about it as well... however, maybe they would have been more discrete about it - it is way easier to pick on a poor south african girl than a german or american athlete. Having just looked up Eva Klobukowska, it looks like her case was found through mandatory genetic screening at that time in the olympics and it wasn't because of her amazing running ability that made people question whether she was male. But not having ever been black, but having dated someone who was - I'm fully aware that my view of the world and how I'm treated by the world is much much different from the reality of how they are treated by the world.
Okay, complete tangent, but claiming that it's not always about race and ignoring such issues really doesn't make them go away. The fact that america has a black president doesn't mean that we don't have a huge number of racists.
No, if you go all over asia, there's a definite preference for white skin and western eyes. Farm workers & poor people get tans, light skin means you don't have to do menial labor. Go through Vietnam, and you will see all the women riding bikes and motorbikes in big brimmed hats with gloves that stretch up to their shoulders and long pants.
I'm half Vietnamese... The vast majority of my mother's vietnamese friends have had breast implants, their noses done to get a prominent bridge like westerners, their eyes cut to get a western fold, whatever it is done to get their cheekbones more western, and then their hair streaked lighter. They all look like this carbon copy charicature of each other... They also all do anything and everything to keep out of the sun. Holding parasols, whatever.
Look at Asian rockstars/superstars/models/tv stars... most of them are fairly western looking. I took some facebook quiz the other day where you were supposed to guess whether people in photos were korean, chinese, japanese, or vietnamese... They were using photos of singers or tv stars and seriously, I couldn't tell the difference on most of them because their features were so western, either by mixed breeding or plastic surgery. Look at anime cartoons... the characters while asian, are still western looking in features.
When I've traveled in Asia, I get a lot of comments - looking vaguely asian, but having western features... I got stopped innumerable times in China with people saying "Where are you from? You look chinese, but your eyes are so beautiful" It is really really sad that so many asians cannot realize that their eyes are pretty as they are. In vietnam, I heard a lot of "fat beautiful" comments... Yes, there's an actual word for fat = beautiful in Vietnamese, because basically only the rich people could afford to have excess fat.
If you travel through South America or Latin America, you will see the same preference for lighter skin.... the indigenous populations (more native indian) and those with darker skin are looked down upon and discriminated against.
Um...thanks. I think. <g> Yeah, I have dreams of one day looking more like Knot in her avatar photo.Quote:
Originally Posted by shootingstar
Roxy
I'm 100% with you here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catriona
Sure. But pulling the race card all the time also doesn't make them go away. If anything, calling attention to "race" all the time, particularly when there's a dubious connection, does its own amount of damage.Quote:
Okay, complete tangent, but claiming that it's not always about race and ignoring such issues really doesn't make them go away. The fact that america has a black president doesn't mean that we don't have a huge number of racists.
There was a fantastic line on Saturday Night Live when they had "Hillary Clinton" and "Sarah Palin" together in a press conference. At one point "Sarah" talks about how fantastic it would be to have their shared dream of getting a woman into the White House fulfilled. "Clinton" responds, quite on point, that she never cared about becoming a woman president. "I never wanted to be the first woman president. I wanted to be president, and I happen to be a woman," she retorted. That's the attitude I wish we could all take.
Since you brought it up, I think that's the view Obama took. He didn't set out to be a black president. He set out to be president. Period.
Continuing to make such a big deal about "race" (which really needs to be recognized for the myth it is) continues to point out a physical difference that we really need to learn matters about as much as hair color.
True enough. And, as you say, this occurs around the world. But does that mean that it has anything to do with race? Does that mean that they're trying to look "whiter"? No, it means that they're trying to look richer. Little if not nothing at all to do with race.Quote:
Farm workers & poor people get tans, light skin means you don't have to do menial labor. Go through Vietnam, and you will see all the women riding bikes and motorbikes in big brimmed hats with gloves that stretch up to their shoulders and long pants.
I always thought that was an intelligent way to avoid the heat. I grew up in San Diego and we always thought it was just smart... and I kind of envied people who didn't care so much about looking "foolish" that they'd rather fry in the sun.Quote:
They also all do anything and everything to keep out of the sun. Holding parasols, whatever.
OK, anyway, I've contributed to the derailment of this thread for long enough. I'll find another pot to stir. ;)
Um, that's not really Knott. :cool: But then she looks better than that :DQuote:
Originally Posted by channlluv
I think Obama's position on this is that he doesn't identify himself as a "black" man - America sees him as one, so that is what he is. A black friend who grew up in the Caribbean, south America & Europe puts it the same way - He was never "black" until he moved to the US. Previous to that, he was just himself. I can say the same with my childhood - I never identified as half asian or anything other than just me or human until at some point in elementary school I started getting the chink comments or the chanting "chinese, japanese, nursery rhyme stuff" with the accompanying eyelid pulling. I'm not going to complain about any issues of racism or anything like that, but I do notice it when it's directed against my mother, even when it is subtle.Quote:
Originally Posted by witeowl
And the problem with what you're saying - is that the people that keep saying let's not make an issue of race or talk about it are typically white people who never have to deal with it and aren't comfortable discussing it, especially with black people around and in some ways that's a form of racism. And they're typically very ideological nice ones - but the problem is that's not all of the US and parts of the US is racist, and ignoring that by sweeping it all under the rug is not the solution.
I do completely know where you're coming from with the "playing the race card" thing, and I know people that are overly sensitive and scream it all the time about stupid stuff... My sister will get super hypersensitive when her hispanic husband is told that he needs better written english skills by his boss, and how it's discrimination... but the reality is that the guy does need better written english skills, especially for a management position.
Nah, in south America it has more to do with looking whiter, because then you have more Spanish ancestors than indian ones... It's actually a pretty huge insult to tell a south american they have indian blood.Quote:
Originally Posted by witeowl
As for the Asian example - when shooting star brought it up, you said why is this about race? what if it's just personal preference? And I explained that it wasn't just personal preference. And how a lot of it in asian society was an attempt to look whiter (hence all the plastic surgery examples)... The whiter vietnamese and the richer ones have mixed with the French during colonial times... Darker skinned vietnamese are looked down upon whether or not it is from the sun or their genetic heritage. Now, whether you want to call this racism or not (given that there really aren't any true races anyways), it is discrimination based on skin color.
Color me disillusioned. Alas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trek420
:)
Roxy
I don't think there is any advantage to being female so male athletes get tested for a LOT of things but perhaps not genetic advantage. (Except Manny Ramirez, didn't he have female hormones in his system when he was suspended?!) Runners World (http://footloose.runnersworld.com/) has a fair amount of interviews and documentation as to what could be going on.
I was a runner who also broke records. Unfortunately (or probably fortunately) the records I broke were from mediocre people. I trained with a team that brought up Olympic athletes and in that elite group, I was not so great but when I competed for my school, I was really good.
I didn't realize this when I ran (I was really young) but unethical things do happen. My parents refused to allow it with me and it wasn't so much of an issue because I never would have done great things. I DO remember seeing the metamorphosis of some of the female runners from average girl to muscular (and sometimes hairy) athlete. Those parents that allowed it to happen had a child that might become famous and the coach got lots of fame for that athlete's skill. It benefited everyone but the runner though I don't think any of them understood what it was at the time.
I don't approve of the way Caster's testing is being done in the limelight. I don't think SHE is a bad person or is trying to work the system, if in fact there is something amiss. Adults have been known to do anything they can to produce a great runner. If anything, this proves that the IAAF needs to have clear standards on what is allowed or not allowed and if that is deemed to be unfair, then it needs to be challenged. It will be interesting to see how the tests come out.
As long as we keep making it all about race... it will be all about race. I'm not saying we should sweep it under the rug so much as I'm saying that we should point out the ludicrousness of it when it does happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catriona
The first time race was ever an issue for me was when a group of girls on the playground came up and asked, "How does it feel to have your mom dating a black man?" I was befuddled. "I don't know. How does it feel to have your mom married to a white man?"
That question made as much sense to me as would, "How does it feel to have your mom dating a redhead?" I don't blame my schoolmates, mind you. I blame their parents who were clearly discussing the "scandal".
Look, I'm plenty fine discussing it. I've faced prejudice: as a child in an interracial family, as an ESL learner, as a woman, as a lower middle class person, as a manager younger than my employees, as a significantly overweight person, as a white teacher in a school with a large population of Latino students.
(In fact, I love it when, as has happened a couple of times, I'm told, "You're just picking on me 'cause I'm brown." I respond, "Half my family is browner than you, so try again. Now get back to work." It's never failed.)
But I'm more than happy to say that we need to start shutting up about it when it isn't really an issue. When it is an issue? Sure, stomp on it and call it out for its idiocy. But when it's questionable and likely more imaginary than real? Why beat a dead horse that isn't even there?
So it hit me: Why don't they just implement this? Sure, we can't go back and change what's happened to Semenya, but it looks like it needs to be done now. If we're going to put some biological requirement on gender (other than equipment), then people need to get tested before they ever step foot on a truly competitive track.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catriona
The only thing I know about her is that her trainer is Ekkart Arbeit. He is a former east-german coach who gave his athletes so much anabolic stereoids that at least one female athlete is now a man. Just google Heidi Krieger.
It was implemented from 1968-1999 and it just raised more questions than answers. Where exactly do you draw the line?Quote:
Originally Posted by witeowl
I don't know, but I do know that a line must be drawn before we hold people accountable to one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catriona
Hmm.. now it should be interesting for test results. Thx for info. papaver. Hope he learned from his flawed "coaching"..to put it quite mildly.Quote:
Originally Posted by papaver
Whiteowl: As for my comments, it wasn't about race at all for the gender testing she is undertaking which the public is interested in now, ...but the hard reality how many ordinary folk are judging her ..appearance. People's opinions on what is "minimally" a female-looking woman is coloured :p by cultural, as well as pervasive mass media projections of what we think a woman should look like physiologically in terms of her face and body.
Catriona has given some great examples on ...aiiiiiyaaah, :p on nose plastic surgery (sounds like Michael Jackson as the male extreme), breast implants, etc. A few months ago, I walked into a retail store close to home that is a Japanese-based home and personal care products. Saw a display of skin whitening cream ..explained in both English and Japanese. Groan. :p:D
Glad you didn't ignore me (wouldn't have accomplished much...) AND I'm glad you did respond (I welcome discussion/debate about contrary views).Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorn
Mimi, that's interesting since I recall you're Italian...and I am too. Frankly, it's been my experience that Italians tend to be viewed as "2nd Class" among "Caucasian" people...add to that the fact that I'm "vertically challenged" and not athletic makes me an additional potential object of scorn among my own gender. I don't feel that I have had any advantage except that I was by God's grace adopted by loving parents at the age of 4 days, was well educated, graduated in the top 10% of my class AND practiced HARD to interview well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Biciclista
At the core, even the most challenged have found the road to success...
Italians are second class?
I thought everyone claims to be italian and irish. The latter around saint patty's day, of course.
Absolutely not:cool: Just to the uninformed...Quote:
Originally Posted by Catriona
A couple of links for you, Mr. Silver. white privilege Owning unearned white privilegeQuote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Silver
Karen
And another one.
http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/...%20connect.htm
Italians were not considered white at one time, this is true. But they are now.
The fact that people were crowing about Scalia being the first Italian supreme court justice is proof that someone is still paying attention. And being married to a W.A.S.P. makes my Italian-ness not obvious anyway.
I'm talking about the way I have been treated compared to people who are Black or Asian. I've always been pretty sensitive to these things.
this is from Life Magazine 1911
Understood ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Biciclista
However, I believe we're much closer to a world of people succeeding on merit than we were 30 years ago. I believe that, because I see it everyday and believe it's time to push forward and not back...
But, I'll let it rest. Sorry for the hijack.
Apparently tests have shown that her male hormone levels are 3 times higher than normal
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-sto...5875-21622252/
But did you read the links?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Silver
Do yourself a favor and read the links.
You can't push forward until you acknowledge the past.
Karen
Thanks for those links, Karen!Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuckervill
These links were excellent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuckervill
I was reminded of when I was 18 or 19, and returning home from travelling alone in Eastern Europe, mostly hiking in the mountains in Romania. I had met and seen so many people with vastly reduced choices compared to me, and been met with everything from adulation to hostility. I remember very vividly the feeling of stepping onto the air-conditioned, clean, quiet, well-functioning train home, and realizing how massively privileged I was.
I skimmed them, and they're the same stuff I've known and was "learned" (how do you learn something you already know?) in certain classes at the university.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuckervill
I used to use an analogy to people claiming that everyone has the same opportunity to succeed, pointing to people who successfully pulled themselves out of ghettos, both figurative and literal. The analogy involved two runners (seriously), one with a flat course to run and one with obstacles (puddles to slosh through, hills to climb, stuff to crawl under). In this race, can the one running the obstacle course win? Sure, some particularly talented people would end up successful no matter what. But, overall, it's clear that the runners on the smooth course have a distinct advantage. You can't point at the few obstacle course winners and say, "See? Equal opportunity!"
Nevertheless, that said, I'll respond to your closing remark with:
You can't move forward while you're only looking behind you.
So all our wailing and gnashing of teeth about discrimination based on appearance may have been based on naught...Quote:
Originally Posted by papaver
Well, it was an interesting intellectual exercise nonetheless. ;)Quote:
Tests carried out before the start of the World Athletics Championships proved the 800m gold medallist had very high levels of the male hormone, according to sources close to the investigation.
It is believed this information led to the IAAF's decision to ask the South African athletics body to carry out a detailed "gender verification" test on the athlete.
I really feel for Semenya. I think I would be crushed if media started in on me to say hey that's a man there!! A wolf in sheep's clothing to get on a podium.
My understanding is that IOC has dropped karyotyping because lot of women came up as XXY? or XY female???
So if you look like a dude, have dude parts, and XY obviously you can't compete in women's category.
But if you are XY female or XXY or mosaic, are they allowed??
The other thing too is that what was her name Merriam Bagger? the semi- or professional golfer who had the sex change operation to become a woman. I thought LPGA as allowing her to compete. so XY with sex change can compete.
I looked up on "intersex" on the internet and came to a non-profit organization on intersex. Reading some of the explanations just made me more confused. I thought your body chromosome were uniform but this isn't so in person who is mosaic. they could have XX for part of their body and XY in another. and they were talking about androgen insensitivity where no amount of testosterone will make you masculine and so XY could end up looking like a girl. Pretty strange stuff...
so where do we draw the line??
some girls are born without uterus... so specifying need for it will exclude them.
has to be XX chromosome will exclude some women.
has to have female genitals... will a guy could have a sex change surgery...
and how much testosterone is too much??
I am too illiterate in this area to speak on this matter. And let the officials and medical experts decide. And I sure wish the stupid media stops hyping the story and let the poor girl alone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by papaver
At the bottom of that article, it says that a man's testosterone is 40 to 60 times that of a woman. Should only 3 times as much really be enough to disqualify someone?
In 1996, 8 female athletes tested XXY. All were allowed to continue competing. The cases were not made public. Semenya's was leaked to the press.
Reuter's summary
http://www.reuters.com/article/sport...dChannel=11611
Interesting historical document
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conw...erTesting.html
Oh, and Mr. Silver, take Karen (Tuckerville)'s advice. Read the articles. She took the time to find them for you, take the time to read them. You may find them enlightening.
Normal Average testosterone for a pre-menopausal female: 0.6-0.7 nmol/L
Normal Range of testosterone for a pre-menopausal female: 0.2-2.9 nmol/L
That new article is horribly written -even to the headline....
Well yeah she has "male" hormones - we (women) all do.....
and there's lots of natural variation between human beings. What they appear to be intimating in the article is that the testosterone in her system may be synthetic, but it really doesn't look like they have any evidence of that, so they can't come out and make the claim. She's just associated with a coach who's been caught doping his athletes in the past....
You all want something interesting to listen to? This American Life did a show based all around testosterone once, including the staff being tested for their own levels - and yes some of the women had higher levels than some of the men...http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radi...spx?sched=1230 This is much more about feelings around masculinity and femininity than hard core science.