PansyPalmetto (of BikeJournal Fame) has a sweet pomeranian.
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PansyPalmetto (of BikeJournal Fame) has a sweet pomeranian.
Chances are everyone posting in this thread is, or intends to be, a responsible dog owner. Several of them are involved in rescue and could tell "bad human" stories that would make everyone turn pale and faint.Quote:
Originally Posted by MM_QFC!
So it's really not necessary, and really not conducive to productive discussion, to presume that people reading the thread are idiots in desperate need of advice.
Making an imperative statement (which technically Mimi did, not you) tends to turn the discussion in an argumentative direction. The polite thing to do is assume that the bad guys are "them", and the good guys are "us." Trust me -- it works. If "them" are reading, they will still get the point.
ETA: Just ran across a perfect case in point. I have a bulldog, and I moderate a bulldog internet group. So you bet I'm going to post about the bulldog I saw tonight tied up outside a store. No dog should be left unsupervised, especially not in Manhattan and especially not a bulldog (because they are well-known to be expensive). Partly I'll post to let off steam (this kind of thing makes me so mad I could spit) and partly in the hope that someone, somewhere might be educated (it's a huge group).
However, I wouldn't dream of posting in a lecturing fashion, e.g., "Don't leave your dog tied up outside a store." I shall write with the assumption that of course none of US would do such a thing (most of the people who post probably wouldn't; the lurkers I have no idea). We'll have a productive discussion (I have great anecdotes about the lengths I go to to avoid leaving my dog alone in a car) and possibly do some good.
Oh. hm:Quote:
However, I wouldn't dream of posting in a lecturing fashion, e.g.,
KarenQuote:
I doubt if you are accomplishing much by posting about it here.
I wouldn't dream of posting in a lecturing fashion in the dog group because I want it to be a place where people new to dogs can learn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuckervill
This thread is an entirely different matter. The internet is full of people taking a bold stand against evil and in favor of good. I love annoying them.
Just for the record, cos I doubt that anyone cares :D, I really like dogs. I prefer cats, but I still like dogs and have had two. But when a dog behaves really annoyingly I'm just not a patient enough person to not get annoyed at the dog, even though I know it's the owner who should take the rap. So I probably will continue to post about the Pom that I want to boot across the fence, and anger some of you for being childish, but still assume that most of you realize I wouldn't touch the dog IRL. A sweet-tempered dog is welcome at my door at any time, it doesn't even have to be under full control as long as it's friendly.
Peace, all.
This thread definitely took a turn.
I think anyone who takes the responsibility for a life (whether it be human or animal) has a responsibility to make the right choice when they decide to do it. I've seen pets (both cats and dogs) taken to the shelter due to convenience and lack thereof.
When you first adopt an animal, there is adjustment. NONE of our cats are perfect (though they'd probably like you to believe it) and all went through a lot of time before they learned the rules.
I really feel sorry for offleash/poorly trained dogs because no matter what the breed, it isn't their fault. There are some less than stellar people who seek out certain breeds just for the status factor. Yeah, I get scared when I am riding or running and there is an offleash dog but to be honest, the most nipping ones have been the smaller dogs. I've been known to yell at the owners, especially if the dog is circling me and looks menacing.
I guess I put a lot of thought into life decisions and a pet is one of those. We can't own a dog due to time constraints and as much as I'd love to, I realize it wouldn't be fair. I have little patience or tolerance for people who take these things lightly and if I could have them put down instead of the dog, I'd probably be good with that.
And Mimi's right re the nature of animals and size. We have a 25 lb cat who really IS a nice guy but if he takes a swipe at us (or jumps up on the bed using his claws), it is a lot more damaging than one of the 9 lb cats. It just is...it's not that he is bad but he has the capacity to hurt us even if he doesn't intend it. He also knows his size and I'm sure most animals do. Lesson learned...always cover your feet at night :)
A 25-lb cat?? Picture, please!
Unfortunately, pit bulls and rottweilers are the dogs that inflict the most damage. It's difficult to find a reliable source citing which breed actually bites more. I suspect that we'd find they are mixed breeds. And, as we know, people often mistake one breed for another - like a border collie mix for a pit bull. :mad::mad::mad:Quote:
Originally Posted by OakLeaf
GSD's are being replaced by the Malinois because American GSD's have health problems. Many of the GSD's used by police are imported from the Czech border. The Malinois have not been tainted (yet) by irresponsible breeders. Unfortunately, many GSD's I see these days are difficult to handle because people won't take the time to train. This is a breed that needs guidance - early and often.
As an aside -- I don't know one cop who likes the Malinois. They call them "mayonnaise dogs" because they are hard to warm up to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by teigyr
lol...I forgot about that 25lb kitty of yours, Teigyr!
Yes, like you, I was chiming in on the rant, in agreement against irresponsible pet owners...and not lecturing anyone here - sheesh, I've been an appreciative member of the TE forum for years and trust that most others here read my remarks as intended: speaking generically to those who let their dogs run loose...hmmm, maybe it's time I checked into that 'ignore' button for those types who state their enjoyment for annoying others...;)
I love bunnies. :p
What she said!Quote:
Originally Posted by tulip
Interesting -- I saw an explosive-sniffing demo with a Malinois and the guy raved about his dog (but it was a public presentation, so of course he did). I do notice the police here still have GSDs, but had heard they are going out of favor as you saidQuote:
Originally Posted by Dogmama
I can't determine any preferred breed among the dogs that sniff for explosives. They are handled by private contractors, not police. There's such a variety of dogs, and I've wanted to ask the handlers, but usually have my dog with me when I see them, so I can't.
It's difficult to show his size unless you realize that what he's standing on is about 2.5' long. He's a good boy but he knows his size (ie when he wants food in the morning he knows that sitting on my chest and staring at my face will usually get me up) and he's been known to accidentally hurt us :)
Sorry for stirring up a poop storm. I have a very low tolerance for self-rightgeousness, and I felt compelled to 1) correct some facts and 2) add some balance. The statements seemed to be very much anti-dog and pro-cat. That was my perception, and I stand by what I wrote.
The cat that bit me did latch on to my hand, which is why it took my slamming her against a wall to get her to "release" -- maybe she was part shark? ;) I still have a scar from that encounter and it happened more than 30 years ago. The cat, by the way, was petite. In this instance, size had nothing to do with it.
I agree that dog owners should both train their dogs and keep them under control. I also think that cat owners should show the same courtesy. Believe it or not, I've had more CATS run out in front of me when I'm out riding my bike (there is a strictly enforced leash law where I live---applies to dogs). Why is it ok for cats to roam free? By the way, that last sentence was tongue in cheek so please don't attack. ;) I do appreciate them keeping the rodent population under control, so long as they don't use my garden as a bathroom.
I have lots of scars from where my (former) parrot bit me over the years. Ouch.
Why should that be tongue in cheek? Don't want to make the kitty owners mad? I detest the neighborhood cats that run free in my neighborhood. They are unlicensed, untagged, they go after the birds that nest in my yard, they use my garden beds as a toilet...Quote:
Why is it ok for cats to roam free? By the way, that last sentence was tongue in cheek so please don't attack.
I've always had mixed feelings about outside cats. As a cat owner, I let mine run free when I was very young, but got more conservative as I got older. I have often enjoyed visits from neighbor cats
I can see why people think cats need to go outside, but my indoor cats seemed quite happy. One of them ran out during a snowstorm, made a fast U-turn, and never went anywhere near the door after that.
I think part of the decline of american birds is the well fed house cats that can afford to hunt for sport, as opposed to just what they need to eat... So pit a human fed cat against birds that have to struggle for their own food (unless someone's feeding them close by as well.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Irulan
I'm not entirely sure why with the skyrocketing divorce rates wehre people trade in their spouses on a whim, you guys find it odd that people abandon theirpets. Husband/wives, kids, pets can all be disposable.
I think the lady in the original post who took the dog back to the human society did the right thing - if she wasn't prepared to take care of that dog or fully committed to it, then she should have brought him back as soon as possible. Ideally, she wouldn't have adopted him in the first place - but if you've never had a high energy dog before, you may not realize how much time and work they can be. I'd love to have a dog, but I'm fully aware that I don't have time for a dog and it would be neglected terribly - so I don't get one.
The rest of this thread - I'm not entirely sure why everyone's so touchy here lately, lots of threads seem to devolve down these routes.
the major part of the decline of bird species is habitat destruction.
blame humans. cats do not demolish forests and put in apartment complexes nor do they build sky scrapers that are so immense and reflective that birds fly into them by the thousands nor do cats build automobiles which move so fast that they kill millions of birds every year and the drivers don't even notice them.
and this is very seriously off the subject ridiculously so.
teigyr - wow, that is one HUGE cat! I'm glad to see that he's just big, too...not a fatso. I love that he knows that sitting on you is punishment enough to wake you up!
I was friends with a guy in college who intentionally over-fed his cat because he liked fat cats. His cat was about 25 lbs too...but super fat. It just pissed me off.
Of course, this same guy shelled out the dough for an Anatolian Shephard (at 165 lbs) and a Ford Expedition. Had to have the biggest of everything. Wonder what he was compensating for? :rolleyes:
Humans have cats.Quote:
Originally Posted by Biciclista
I do blame humans.
I've known people that overfed their pets for that reason too. Incredible.Quote:
Originally Posted by GLC1968
You can see Teigyr's cat is huge because his large head looks SMALL on his body!
I feed several feral cats in my backyard. They all get one trip to the vet for neutering and then they are free to hang out. I've watched them lay about on my deck while birds will come down and eat their cat food. They watch the birds intently, but I've yet to see them catch one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catriona
Veronica
For anyone who wants to be off topic about cats & birds:
http://www.abcbirds.org/abcprograms/.../predation.pdf
http://wildlife-conservation.suite10...s_to_songbirds
http://www.animalliberationfront.com...reNotGreen.htm
Of course, read with however many grains of salt since some of those sites have anti-roaming outdoor cat agendas.
You have well behaved feral cats.Quote:
Originally Posted by Veronica
My Mom's garden has several ponds and lots of bushes/plants - and all the neighborhood cats like to hang out in her yard - she doesn't have a cat, doesn't feed them, but has 4-6 of the neighbor's cats in her yard. They eat the goldfish in her ponds (she's put them in to eat the mosquitos), and there's often dead birds about.
We did have a siberian husky once that had a dog run in the back yard - the the the end of his leash/run was a magnolia tree with a blue jay nest in it... any time the dog got near the blue jay nest, the blue jay dive bombed the dogs head. The happened 5 or 6 times before the dog got sick of it and opened his mouth and the blue jay was no more.
You know I'm sure cats do eat birds. Cats are carnivores after all and higher up on the food chain then small birds. That doesn't mean I'm going to kill off all the ferals that happen to be in my neighborhood. They didn't ask to be dumped or be born as ferals.
I'd rather neuter them, feed them, give them fresh water and make their short lives just a tad less miserable. They have a safe place in my backyard, away from the coyotes and the occasional stray dogs. I suppose I could take them to the Humane Society when I catch them and they could euthanize them. But I've gotten rather attached them over the years and they seem to have gotten attached to me as most of them will now allow me to pet them. Even when I don't have the food bucket in hand. And just like my two strictly indoors cats, the outdoor cats have distinct personalities that I find interesting.
Veronica
Your moms goldfish are probably eaten by raccoons, not cats...... I had fish in my back yard for a while too - the raccoons made a huge mess of everything and I had to give up.
I have strictly indoor cats (for their safety and welfare) but I too have had indoor outdoor cats in the past and the best they were ever able to do were tiny mice. I never had a cat who was a successful bird hunter. Do I think no cats can do it - of course not, but I certainly don't think house cats can be pinned with the disappearance of birds..... Chemicals - specifically DDT (think Silent Spring) nearly destroyed bird populations and they are just beginning to make a comeback. I've noticed a huge increase in the numbers and species of birds even just in my neighborhood in the past 10 years. We had only pigeons, house wrens, finches and starlings when I moved here. Since that time I've seen eagles, peregrins, flickers, scrub jays, owls, bush tits, oregon juncos (in the winter) and many more.
In any case the OP was complaining about a stupid *human*, not even a dog or a cat...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eden
all stupid/obnoxious pet behavior can more or less be traced back to a human
lol I'm glad THAT's settledQuote:
Originally Posted by Irulan
I think there are plenty of us cat owners who don't think it is ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by mickchick
IMO, people who let their cats roam, don't really care about them, and probably shouldn't own them.... and unfortunately, many don't for long.
Whenever our cats sneak out, we literally freak out trying to find them and get them back in - there are far too many predators out here for us to be comfortable letting them out at any time. Our kitties are indoor only!
If more kitty owners thought like you, there would be less people using their legal right to check out cat traps from the pound.Quote:
Originally Posted by sarahspins
Yes, but it's still very good that those programs exist.. for a while in areas surrounding me, TNR was illegal :eek: (it's not now, thank goodness!)Quote:
Originally Posted by Irulan
This seems illogical to me. Cats like to play, of course, but their reason for hunting is to eat. If they're not hungry, they will hunt way way less, don't you think? And you think the birds are in some kind of weakened state because they are doing what they do, and the cats are super-cats because they are fed by humans?Quote:
I think part of the decline of american birds is the well fed house cats that can afford to hunt for sport, as opposed to just what they need to eat... So pit a human fed cat against birds that have to struggle for their own food (unless someone's feeding them close by as well.)
I have two cats in my yard, and rarely ever see them catch birds or find dead birds in the yard. They do, in fact, sometimes kill birds, but not nearly to the extent that they are decimating the local bird population. I scared away about 30 doves off the edge of my pool the other day--it was amazing. All the stray cats in the neighborhood couldn't have taken care of that bird population. (My dog hunts birds every single day, but she never catches them. :) )
I agree with Mimi that it's development and loss of habitat that hurts the birds. Cats are just part of the food chain.
Karen
I'm not going to take the time to google up links,(you can do that yourself if you want) but the statistics are out there that housecats hunt for the kill, not to eat. When was the last time that you saw a cat actually EAT what it KILLED? They don't, they play with them, then leave them lying around, preferably on the door step.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuckervill
Honestly, the last time I saw a cat kill something it ate it. But I grew up on a farm and killing was expected of the cats (that was their job, and food from humans was a treat and incentive to stay around, not what they survived on)Quote:
Originally Posted by Irulan
I can believe some cats kill for sport. I cannot believe that even if every feral/outdoor cat killed for sport that it would equal the amount of damage to the bird population from other sources (loss of habitat, pesticides, cars, etc). Honestly, it would take quite a bit of scientific evidence to convince me that cats even came close to any one of those numbers.
My cats eat the heads of the birds when they kill them. :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Irulan
But they don't kill enough to even come CLOSE to decimating the bird population.
There are always way way more birds alive and flittering around than there are dead on the ground or in a cat's stomach.
Karen
When I had outdoor cats, like I said they never got anything bigger than tiny field mice and they always ate them. We'd only know they got one if we saw then with it or if we found the little stomachs around. They didn't like that bit, but everything else was eaten.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irulan
Cats who bring things to your door think you are stupid and incapable of feeding yourself... they are bringing you prey so that you can eat and/or learn to hunt....
Cats often play - and often that wounds birds and cats don't have clean wounds. I'm not going to argue it, studies have been done which show that cats, not being a native part of the local food chain do decimate bird and small mammal populations - you can look at the links I posted which do link to independent studies of what effect cats have on the native wildlife and cats do contribute to the decline in bird populations. Yes, there are a lot of other factors that contribute to the decline in bird populations... But the term I used was part of the decline. Not are solely responsible for.
And the number of people that claim "oh my cat doesn't eat/kill birds" is just silly.
No raccoons in my Mom's yard (least never been seen in the last 30 odd years) - the cats which hang out underneath the bushes right next to the ponds are a slight indication that they're the ones going after the fish - ocassionally a deer will fall in the pond, but it's usually fairly obvious when that's happened and there's fish death from that.
Just because you haven't seen them, doesn't mean that raccoons are not in the yard.... They are everywhere and plenty of them too. I've only seen them once or twice, but their destructive habits I've had plenty of. They love water and they love fish. Cats may enjoy fishies, but they don't generally like water. Unless the pond is extremely tiny and shallow or the fish congregate at the edges waiting to be caught something else is likely doing the fishing. Around here people also have problems with herons visiting their koi ponds.
Ok, I looked at all three links. NONE of them show a scientific study and NONE of them cite their sources. I'm sorry, but I'm a trained scientist and these articles might as well be pulling numbers out of their rear-ends as far as I'm concerned. And I'm not convinced they are independent (I'm inclined to think they are all "quoting" Kress and not giving him credit, but I could be wrong of course.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Catriona
The link to Steve Kress' article in the Audubon magazine is the most credible being that he does have a PhD in Environmental Studies (I had to go dig for that info). But, he should know better. There's no mention of how he came to the number of deaths from cats (but he did say how he got to the number of cats in the US and how he got to the number of window/glass deaths...). I'd loose my job and get kicked out of grad school if I tried to pass off something like that as scientific (and honestly he probably wasn't trying to, but he should cite or link to the scientific work as well). The info would never get through a peer reviewed journal like that, but unfortunately he's a scientist so it's automatically credible to the public even when it's not credible. IMO, that's an abuse of the trust put into scientists and it makes me ill. (I'll resend that last statement if he in fact has published a peer reviewed scientific work with his data on this).
In the end I'm not arguing that cats do not contribute at all. And in fact I agree with you that the vast majority of cats should be kept indoors and confined when outdoors.
In fact here's a scientific article that actually agrees with your point, ranking cats as potentially equal to glass strikes in deaths (however, they still don't cite or explain the data behind cat deaths (at least in the intro where it is mentioned)...so I still don't "trust" the information, though I'm more inclined to believe it's plausible):
http://www.muhlenberg.edu/depts/biol...ent%202004.pdf