My Motorist Exchange...

Other canucks are welcome to give their opinion on the use of ma'am:

Where we are in this part of Canada or Toronto, simply rarely hear to it or it's used rarely at all the where I've worked where the biz dealt with customers/public.

However methinks I do hear 'sir' abit more often.

I don't use it. It's just not part of my English conversational style which is partially influenced where I grew up. HOWEVER, I have noticed if I attempt to speak French, I will use "madam".

And in Chinese, there is a similar term to use for a woman in conversation. I will use it.

I can't even explain why on earth I don't use ma'am or sir hardly at all.
But it doesn't bother me if people address me as ma'am, even though more people tend to refer to me as 'miss'...without using my name. :p
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I can't remember when I ever spoke with an errant motorist. I've dealt with angry strangers before in the past, but it had absolutely nothing to do with cycling or while on bike. Because of these non-cycling-related, angry stranger situations, (well actually they were racist incidents), I have no interest in challenging any angry stranger when there is only a few mins. or secs. to remind /warn/explain anything to them while they are in a car and I'm in on bike.

Umm, I'm not saying that I was annoyed at the gent using the term " Ma'am"..i was honoured to be called "ma'am" & don't hear it at all down this way. I just had to giggle about being called "ma'am"

I'll use Sir if i don't know the person but for a woman, not "ma'am"..

I too was taught early to show respect by addressing my elders as Ma'am and Sir. A simple "yes" or "no" was not acceptable.
Not following through with this expectation might have dire consequences as a youngster.

Mr. Silver I'm glad you talked to the driver. She definitely put her back up, but I imagine she learned something good from the confrontation.

I may be speaking only for myself, but I don't know anyone who was taught to address people as ma'am and sir and the impending dire consequences if you didn't. It definitely is a regional thing and it will always make me bristle. I don't say anything unless it's in a comfortable situation; like in a store i don't say anything, but the chance of someone calling me ma'am around here is slim.
My son in the Marines uses it now and I have told him to cool it when he's around me. He doesn't address me as ma'am, but I heard him saying it in stores, etc. when we visited him last fall.

Up until my middle twenties, I bristled a little upon being called ma'am, but that's gone away since I certainly can no longer be called miss. (Besides, I actually feel "miss" is a rather dismissive term, as in, "Don't you worry your little head about that, miss.")

So, for those that are offended by the use of ma'am... What is the alternative? In a situation in which you would use "sir" out of deference or respect, what would be the way to respectfully address a woman?

I'm genuinely stymied.

On a competely different tangent, I hate when people use "lady" to call out to a woman (or, worse yet, address a woman). I can never keep myself from hearing in my head, "Hey, Laaaaddddyyyyyy!" a la Jerry Lewis.

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Originally Posted by Crankin

I guess to me, the use of ma'am connotes the attitude that Oak speaks of. And yes, it represents a whole lot of culturally loaded regional/political things that I don't like. When I moved to Miami as a teen and some of my friends started calling my mother ma'am, she had the same reaction. I do not see it as a sign of respect. It seems like a "false" respect.
I have no problem being called "Mrs...." in a work situation, because for 30 years that's how I was addressed as a teacher. But, I couldn't stand being called "Mrs..." by my kid's friends. In my social circle in AZ all of the kids called parents by first names. When we moved here, it was different. Although, once I told the kids I wanted to be called by my first name, they did. And in the end, all of the families we became friends with felt the same way.

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If I catch my kids calling anyone younger than 20 (or on their own, living as an adult, paying their own way) anything but Ms. so and so, or if they are friends, Miss Jane or whatever (for some reason the rule doesn't apply to men? They are Mr. Lastname or just firstname....go figure) they better start running because my hand will BLISTER their backsides. They address all adults as "Yes, Sir, or "No, Ma'am" in a deferential, obedient, polite tone. They are 15 and 11, and I have never gotten anything but compliments on their behavior in public (at home we have the usual issues, but they know there is no pushing anything in public). Ma'am or Sir gives them something polite to use when they are not sure what else to use. Me too....and saying, "Excuse me, Ma'am" or whatever is better than "Hey you!"

Manners have so gone by the wayside....part of the reason (on topic) we get our butts run off the road! People have forgotten how to be patient and polite!

Ps.
+1 on hating "hey lady!"...tacky, tacky, tacky.

As I said, I think "sir" is as insulting as "ma'am" - sometimes even more so. It's obviously a regional thing and it's not just "when in Rome," because when it's a matter of usage, not language, then the recipient of the term might not realize that usage where they currently are is different from usage where they're from. But it appears it's good for all of us to be aware that there are other usages, and we shouldn't assume an insult from the use of "sir" or "ma'am" or from its absence.

But to the person who asked "what is the alternative," I'd say, "why is a word even necessary?"

If you're trying to get the attention of someone you don't know, then a simple "excuse me" or "pardon me;" if they don't realize you're speaking to them, then a reference to a piece of their clothing ("In the red dress") will identify them to themselves better than a simple reference to their sex.

If you're speaking to someone whose name you don't know, but want or need to learn it, then "Ms...?" or "Mr...?" or simply "I'm sorry, I didn't catch your name."

If you're speaking to someone whose name you do know, then use it.

That's all.

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Originally Posted by OakLeaf

But to the person who asked "what is the alternative," I'd say, "why is a word even necessary?"

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Because I want to show respect, even to strangers. Is that such a bad thing?

I don't know why or when ma'am or sir became insults. I spent way too much time googling it just now, and it seems that people in the South use sir/ma'am, and the rest of us don't. Except for the Northerners who piped in and say they use sir/ma'am. And I'm a Westerner (born/raised in CA) who uses sir/ma'am, and I've never run into anyone who showed the least offense when I used it (in CA/WI/NV). People here keep saying that it's a regional thing, but I can't for the life of me figure out what region that is.

The only good news I can find through my googling is that the people who appreciate sir/ma'am as respectful seem to far outnumber the people who see those terms as insults. That gives me hope that we're not doomed to a world where we all call each other "dude". :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by OakLeaf

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But to the person who asked "what is the alternative," I'd say, "why is a word even necessary?"

If you're trying to get the attention of someone you don't know, then a simple "excuse me" or "pardon me;" if they don't realize you're speaking to them, then a reference to a piece of their clothing ("In the red dress") will identify them to themselves better than a simple reference to their sex...

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Well, personally I'd be more put off by "excuse me you in the red dress" than "ma'am" or "excuse me ma'am". I'd take the former to be of a tone more of "hey you!" and imply less respect than the later.

In the end I feel tone, more than word use, is important. For instance I could be offended just as easily (if not more so) by "excuse me" than "ma'am" depending on the verbal and physical cues I'm getting from the speaker (this of course causes issues on the internet).

Being from the south I was raised on "yes, ma'am" "no, ma'am" (or sir where appropriate). I can say it politely with respect or I can be a sarcastic little snot about it; all in the tone. Incidentally I'm much better at conveying "annoyed sarcastic snot who thinks you are an igmo" tone when saying "excuse me" than when saying "ma'am" (and I'm getting better and better at conveying it when saying "on you LEFT"...which generally comes out in a tone of "MOVE OVER MORON"...:o)

And I'm sorry, but to some extent it is "when in Rome". If you are traveling somewhere where social norms and conventions are likely different than yours (and the US is big enough for some of these differences to occur even within the country) you should know enough about their customs to not be grossly offended or offend (you don't have to LIKE it...just know enough to understand and respect the different convention of the area).

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Originally Posted by witeowl

Because I want to show respect, even to strangers. Is that such a bad thing?

I don't know why or when ma'am or sir became insults.

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That was my question also!

12 years in the US Marine Corps keeps me saying Sir and Ma'am 12 years later:p

So yesterday I rolled up to a stop sign and make my stop and go simultaneously with the car to my left. All of a sudden, as she is almost midway in the intersection she turns right -- right in front of me no turn signal by the way. Older lady in her mid 60's totally in shock as I yelled "Whoa!" and she looks over her right shoulder to see me almost in her passenger seat.

I motion for her to go ahead and make her right as we are both now in the middle of the intersection. She waves me to go but her CAR is blocking my path. So I motion again for her to go.

So what does the heavy-set jerk motorist in the SUV behind me yell out the window? "THERE'S A BIKE LANE ON THIRD!" (A street that runs parallel to where I am on the coast) I am two short blocks from a dedicated bike path (with barrier) from where I am if I continue in the direction I am heading.

What jerk motorist doesn't get is how the lady in the car was totally at fault totally absent minded and had it not been for my skill level I would have T-Boned her. She had no turn signal and she was almost halfway in the intersection before she had a "oh sh!t I should be turning right" moment.

Yeah he sped off before I was able to explain to him in great detail how asinine his comment was.:mad:

KenyonChris, if you knew me, you would know that I am a stickler for manners. But what you describe is not considered a necessity for being well mannered here. My grown up children are extremely well mannered and I let them know what was acceptable and not by *showing* them. Heck, I even made them wear dress up clothes to religious school, until I realized no one else did! If an adult they knew wanted to be called by his/her last name, they did. But here, there are even schools where the teachers are called by their first name. Not any where I worked, but one where a lot of my kid's friends went. And guess what, all of those kids are now very successful people who generally have abided by society's rules.
I wanted my children to behave and be well mannered because that's what nice people do. I did not want "obedient" kids. They questioned me plenty, yet there never was a major problem with either of them.
This is definitely a cultural and regional difference. Probably the reason why I hated living in the south and decided I wanted to leave the west, so my kids would have the same values as I grew up with. So, I am done with this discussion.

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Originally Posted by witeowl

Besides, I actually feel "miss" is a rather dismissive term, as in, "Don't you worry your little head about that, miss."

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Me too!

I won't even tell you what association I have with the word "Madam" (unless I'm in France).

I don't buy that its a regional difference - as a kid, visiting family in New England, all their friends marveled at my use of the word "sir" and "ma'am"...so to the New Englander's, I'm sharing my own life experience in New England...and it further reinforced my commitment to the practice.

Anyone remember Beverly Hills Cop where Axel was being arrested :D:D

wow. I am amazed at the number of people who take offense at polite terminology. As kids, we also had to call my parents and all other adults "sir" or "ma'am". After 20 years in the army, I will continue to call people sir or ma'am when being polite. We must be the only society in the world where people get offended when you try to be polite.
When I was in Korea, one of the first things we learned was the polite way to address people. They weren't offended, even though it was the equivalent of our sir and ma'am (different for older married lady and young lady, but the male word was the same regardless of age)
So many things to be offended about, and people get offended when others try to be polite. I will continue to be polite, even knowing this, and if someone is offended by it, I will figure that's their problem.
vickie

While I don't mind people occasionally using "ma'am" for myself, (fastdogs did you actually use these terms for your parents???), I think I figured out why I rarely use "sir" or "ma'am" when speaking English vs. using non-English equivalents when I speak (Chinese or French):

If I am in a social group that is predominantly white and they are all adults, like me and they don't use ma'am nor sir, I will not use it. ....to me that sounds too deferential...as someone who is non-white in a predominantly white social group situation.

I hope you understand what I mean and not take offense. Do understand that it is a unconscious style on my part, it is not an active decision I thought about years ago. I suddenly realized the possible reason..just now. Yea, 1/2 century later. :D

The reason why I instinctively use the polite equivalent terms when attempting to speak French or Chinese, is that I speak both of those languages badly but I probably have better nuanced language "feelers" for Chinese expressions compared to French. To make every attempt to save face from mangling a foreign language and poor grammar, every word of politeness counts. :D:D:D:D But seriously...it has helped me in such situations.

To those who worked in the army, I worked in a government dept. which included alot of communication with the police and firefighters. Predominantly male workplace. Decision-makers were primarily male. I rarely used 'sir'. And none of the guys expected it either. I rarely heard other women use 'sir' either. I choose the culture of police and fire depts. as similar to army/military, since there is a shadow of the rank and file/order chain-of-command in management style and working relationships.

And this was 15 yrs. ago.

When we responded to my folks it was - yes sir, no sir, yes ma'am, no ma'am. A habit I carry with me long after my father has been gone. I'm Pittsburgh born and bred, but the sir/ma'am thing I believe had much more to do with my fighter pilot father. :) But where I lived, NO ONE called adults by anything other than MR or MRS lastname. And I like it that way. I was never a fan of the Miss firstname, though I was amused that my friends that had their kids use that form of addressing adults, had them call me Dr firstname. :) That wasn't as bad. But again, it is really all about tone and how things are said. As long as people are respectful, I'm OK. Even if being called ma'am does remind me that I have more years behind me than I have in front of me.

His children have called me by my first name ever since their early teens. I never had problems with that and it is an exception that I make since 2nd marriages and partnerships create more complex social /family situations ..compared to 50 years ago.

But normally for young children and teens up to a certain point, not at all related to the adult, to use Mrs/Ms./Miss/Mr., is safest and easiest for everyone.

I've never known any Chinese-speaking family use Chinese equivalents of sir or ma'am to their parents. There are other expectations of respectful behaviour by children to parents which cut across all cultures.

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Originally Posted by fastdogs

wow. I am amazed at the number of people who take offense at polite terminology.

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I don't take offense if a military/ex military or southern person ma'am's me. I understand that they've had it drilled into them that it is the polite thing to do and I recognize that they are not trying to insult me. That said, I still don't have to enjoy being called ma'am.

The point is that yes indeed we are not a homogenous society - ma'am is not always considered to be polite.... In fact in some places it is generally used as something of an insult if used on a younger person. While there can be understanding, it still doesn't take away the creepy feeling.

You learned the respectful terminology when you were in Korea - you didn't insist that sir and ma'am should be good enough for them since it was polite where you grew up - correct? Don't expect that everyone in places in the USA will understand that you were raised that way and don't expect that every place in the US has the same social graces and insults either. Some people - especially those who perhaps have not travelled and or have not be exposed to other ways of thinking so much may get their hackles raised quite a bit if you ma'am them and you may get a reaction similar to CC's experience.

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Originally Posted by fastdogs

We must be the only society in the world where people get offended when you try to be polite.

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No, you're missing my point.

Where I live, "sir" and "ma'am" are terms that people use EXCLUSIVELY when they're trying to be RUDE.

Unless they're in the military or recently discharged - which is a culture all to itself.

Oakleaf, do you mind telling me what region you're talking about? I've told several friends (all living in US now but wide variety of nationalities, cultures and backgrounds) about this discussion and no one's ever heard of such objections. I do know women who assume "ma'am" has to do with age, but that's it.

Pam

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Originally Posted by OakLeaf

Where I live, "sir" and "ma'am" are terms that people use EXCLUSIVELY when they're trying to be RUDE.

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May I ask where that is?

Only just now read this thread. I think a point that seems to have been missed is that it makes no difference if you're using a term of respect or not, if you aren't showing respect. Like the teenage girl back a whole lot of posts. Then it becomes a faux show of respect, just to get out of trouble, or even to increase your show of disrespect, sarcastically.

And if you are being respectful and polite otherwise, it's not necessary to use a term of respect. The tone of voice and your manner is enough. eta: not quite true, though, I do appreciate it and have taught my son to use "please" and thank you" liberally, which strictly speaking are just niceties. But said sincerely they do reduce friction.

In Norway we have no terms like this in usage, and I can confirm that they are not necessary to get someone's attention. If I were called ma'am or miss or whatever in the States in a polite tone of voice and setting I wouldn't get offended though, just figure that it was meant well. But I would hesitate to use them myself, because I don't what the labels "mean", and it feels strange to me to use labels on strangers in the first place.

Someone calling me miss here would be over 80 :)

I'm in northern Appalachia. But Crankin is in Cambridge, MA, which could hardly be more different culturally.

Except, I suppose, that both regions have a pretty ingrained class consciousness, from opposite ends of the spectrum; maybe that's the common thread.

Anyway, I'm out too. :cool:

Interesting footnote:

According to wikipedia:

"After addressing her as "Your Majesty," it is proper to address The Queen of the United Kingdom as "Ma'am" for the remainder of the conversation..."

Not sure where "sir" came from, in english vernicular, but "ma'am" is short for "madam", which comes from the french "madame", which directly translates to "my lady". SO in a way it is a title of respect or patronization depending on your point of view. "Sir' is the title given to Knights, but not all men were members of the chivalry.

I think the use of titles, especially in the south, is a holdover from the age of gentility and the fascination with the renaissance. It became ingrained with the idea of what someone with "good manners" "should use". And there it is today.

As many have pointed out, often however, it's not what you say, it's how you say it. With a smile or a sneer? I found moving back to the south, I fell in to using "sir" and "ma'am" more frequently as it is expected, where I didn't use them so much living out west (in Arizona and California).

Having been raised southern, and in the military, I have the biased point of view that the use of titles does show respect, and position in a pecking order. Children are not on equal basis with adults, therefore should use titles when addressing adults. And in professional, or formal settings, not all adults are equal either, so we use titles there as well.

And sometimes, when Officer Friendly is asking you why you blew the stop sign? A deep breath, and "yes sir/ma'am, "no sir/ma'am" are the only correct answers. I didn't see the sign, sir. Bunch of leaves in front of the sign, sir. Yes, there's a warning sign, I'll do better next time, sir. Deep breath.

Kenyonchris we love you and the crap you and your compatriots that walk the thin blue line put up with!

I agree with Beth on this one. It's a sign of respect in my book, too, especially when used with sincerity, and having been raised with good manners, it would never occur to me to use those terms in any other way.

As a 44-year-old, I'm often called ma'am, even out here in Southern California, and while reading this thread and reviewing my own use of those terms here, I'm pretty sure I only use them with people older than myself. People who are my peers in age just get a "Pardon me," or "Excuse me." I'd never examined that before reading this thread.

I've also caught myself calling friends of my daughter Darlin' and Sweetheart. Also terms of endearment as these are kids - male and female - who I genuinely like a lot. I've known most of them since they were all in Kindergarten together and they're about to go into 6th grade. Many of them call me Roxy, which I have to admit I found disconcerting at first, but I asked my daughter what she calls their mothers, and she replied with their first names.

Maybe it's an enlightened Southern California thing and I'm still getting used to it, but there you go. I don't think I've ever heard my daughter say "Yes, ma'am" to anyone now that I'm thinking about it. She's very good on the pleases and thank yous, but man, I've got some hometraining to do.

...Okay, so I just went and asked her if she ever uses those terms and she said no. I asked her why not and she sort of chuckled and said, "'Cause it would make me sound like the most polite person in the world." Read that nerdy, I guess. At lease she recognizes the implication of the use of those terms.

Yep, some hometraining is in order, especially before we head to Florida next week to visit my family there.

Roxy

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Originally Posted by lph

Only just now read this thread. I think a point that seems to have been missed is that it makes no difference if you're using a term of respect or not, if you aren't showing respect. Like the teenage girl back a whole lot of posts. Then it becomes a faux show of respect, just to get out of trouble, or even to increase your show of disrespect, sarcastically.

And if you are being respectful and polite otherwise, it's not necessary to use a term of respect. The tone of voice and your manner is enough. eta: not quite true, though, I do appreciate it and have taught my son to use "please" and thank you" liberally, which strictly speaking are just niceties. But said sincerely they do reduce friction.

In Norway we have no terms like this in usage, and I can confirm that they are not necessary to get someone's attention. If I were called ma'am or miss or whatever in the States in a polite tone of voice and setting I wouldn't get offended though, just figure that it was meant well. But I would hesitate to use them myself, because I don't what the labels "mean", and it feels strange to me to use labels on strangers in the first place.

Someone calling me miss here would be over 80 :)

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Nice post, lph.