Dress Code - Bare Legs OK or Not?

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A concession to wearing pantyhose even in hot climates, is incredibly small, folks. It's not like being asked to wear a head covering in an fundamentalist Islamic country.

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Work/office culture is a little different from religious/political culture.

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Or being a firefighter wearing rubberized turnout gear jackets in hot climates, fighting a fire... many other situations where people in certain jobs work in FAR more difficult environmental conditions.

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Panty hose is not safety equipment.

For me, the the above two arguments are a real stretch for the reasons I stated.

Hmmm..work-related 'cosmetic' stuff.I haven't looked up the latest rules on full beards for police officers. But I do recall there was sufficient debate in this area in Ontario for the police officers there.

If I can recall correctly, of all the images and tv footage of Royal Canadian Mounted Police, and they do police work, not just ceremonial work...alot of them don't wear beards.

The reality at construction sites, is that we had foreign workers from hot climates, Panama, Thailand who found Vancouver winter cold..which Canadians would consider quite mild. Only a couple degrees below freezing at the foothills (not up in mountains).

In the summer, Thai male construction workers were wearing balaclavas over their faces..to prevent further skin darkening (cultural cosmetic reasons)...and keep themselves warm in cool mornings. It bewildered Canadians and others...but it wasn't a big deal.

When I worked for the judges in the courts, the judges were pissed off that some of the law students/law clerks wore jeans and bare legs with skirts. Judges fumed because they had to wear their judicial robes at all times in court even if the courthouse was not properly air-conditioned (and ours was a historic building, early 1800's) and hot summer temps. So they asked the law clerks to wear complete business attire.

Hey, some of the lawyers would be billing later on in their careers at $200-$400 per hr. for their services. Might as well get used to dressing for the part.

__________________
I agree a person's skill and competence on the job should form the basis of one's judgement. But that's not total reality.

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Originally Posted by Irulan

Work/office culture is a little different from religious/political culture.

Panty hose is not safety equipment.

For me, the the above two arguments are a real stretch for the reasons I stated.

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These two things may be true, but if you work in an environment where panty hose are required, it's really no different. If you want that job/career, you take the good with the bad.

I have to wear static lab coats and straps on my shoes at my job. This means that I can't ever wear heels to work and that I'm often hot. I deal. It's part of my chosen career. If it bothered me that much, I'd find a new one.

I once saw an elderly lady come out of a rest room in Central Park with her skirt tucked in to her pantyhose :eek:. I haven't worn them since.

SK, my comment about wearing pantyhose in AZ is based on 15 years of working in various school districts there. But, it was almost 20 years ago. No one would have thought about coming to work without them. Even in 1990, I noticed that in the same profession, when I moved to MA, less people wore them.
Personally, I think hose make legs look nice and professional looking. I would not care if they were required for my work. I go bare legged when it's warm enough, but not in the dead of winter. I wear knee highs under pants, sort of the kind a cross between stockings and knee socks. I do not like the look of being professionally dressed in a pants suit/dress pants, sitting down, and then seeing ski socks under the pants. I solve the issue by wearing short boots with my pants a lot of the time.
I know it's a generational thing (mostly), but it also took me a long time to be able to wear pants to synagogue, even when I was there for a meeting, not a religious service.

As part of the over 50 crowd there was a time when I would have been absolutely mortified to go to the office without hose on! Even showing bare ankles when wearing pants was tabu. But I think the times are changing and if the skirt is a proper fit, ie: not a mini skirt showing your behind, that it's ok. This week, for the first time in my professional life, I wore a skirt without hose to work. A cute pencil skirt that comes to my knee. It freaked me out a little, but I survived the day and was a lot cooler. My company has our A/C set at 79 degrees to save money/energy. I am roasting away in my menopausal misery, so the skirt gave me some relief.

I also think you have to be careful not to go too far at the office -- no flip flops , see-through fabrics, belly tops, etc.

I agree totally that an interview is different. You need every advantage you can get and professional dress is a big one.

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Originally Posted by CA_in_NC

I've also been asked during the last year in job interviews: 1) whether I have children; 2) whether I want children; and 3) whether my husband would quit his job to take care of kids if we had them. :rolleyes::rolleyes::mad:

CA

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These are lawyers or people that work for law firms asking these questions? :confused:

Baffling.

I once worked at an office that didn't allow open-toed shoes, AND required hose.

I think it's interesting that a person from Canada thinks it's no big deal to wear hose when it is hot outside. A superior from Minnesota once told a group of us that we should always wear a suit jacket, no matter what the weather. Yeah. right. Try that with Arkansas humidity or Florida temperatures!

Karen

You won't catch me dead wearing a suit. I wore them for the first 2 or 3 year in the work force and grew to hate them. Then I gave them all away to a coworker, who couldn't believe what I was doing. That was in the mid-80's. I've never regretted it.

No more runs, no more sagging hose, no more uncomfortable clothes. No more skirts or dresses. In my job as a software engineer I was occasionally required to crawl under tables following cables, rerouting computer connections, what have you. I made the mistake of attending a "professional development" seminar for women - I have no idea why I did this, it turned out to be a VERY bad idea - and got held up to the rest of the women as a bad example (I showed up wearing silk trousers, a silk blouse, and a heavy sweater because I'm cold all the time, they were NICE clothes but not a suit). When I pointed out to her the practical problems with wearing skirts and dresses and then having to crawl around under tables, up ladders, and poke my head up into ceiling cavities checking connections and what not, she primly informed me I should wear CULOTTES.

I burst out laughing right in her face (which also pissed her off, but I was PAYING for this crap, LOL!)

I cannot imagine the looks if I had shown up to work in CULOTTES. Actually I can. Pants raised no hackles, bothered no one, but CULOTTES? Culottes are for gym class, LOL!

BTW, I have no idea how you could tell the difference between ski socks and any other knee sock, but if I sit down and someone peering under the table at my ankles can somehow tell they're ski socks (as opposed to "plain ol' kneesocks", whatever that means), tough. Who pays that much attention to someone else's ankles anyway? I get COLD and I will do whatever it takes to counteract that. My physical comfort trumps everybody else's sense of propriety, especially when it's over something as unobtrusive as socks under nice trousers.

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Originally Posted by ilima

These are lawyers or people that work for law firms asking these questions? :confused:

Baffling.

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These were lawyers. Who represent plaintiffs in employment law matters.

For some odd reason, lawyers seem to think that the law does not apply to them.

CA

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Originally Posted by CA_in_NC

These were lawyers. Who represent plaintiffs in employment law matters.

For some odd reason, lawyers seem to think that the law does not apply to them.

CA

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I had a job interview with a federal judge once, in which he repeatedly asked me whether it was "Miss or Mrs." After about three rounds of "Ms." I finally answered his question. (I was young.) As soon as the interview as over I mentally kicked myself. I still wonder whether my willingness to stand up to him for what I knew was right, was part of the interview. (For that reason or whatever, he didn't offer me a job.)


But to the OP: I think it depends on your clientele. There are definitely people who think bare legs are "gross" in a professional setting. Even if you disagree with that, you don't want to alienate your patients. In an office where there was less contact with the public, if I were the boss, I wouldn't make pantyhose part of the dress code (even though I personally wouldn't dream of dressing "nicely" without hose). In a medical office, I might. Honestly, what would you think of men's bare legs in your office?


Aside to Tuckerville: Minnesota in the summertime is hotter than most of Florida (regularly in the high 90s to low 100s) and at least as humid as Ohio. I believe the same is true of much of south central Canada. Just because it's cold in the winter doesn't mean they don't know what summer is like.

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Originally Posted by GLC1968

Luckily, I'm now an engineer and having any 'style' at all is clearly optional for my profession so I never have to worry about it again. :p

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Bahahahahah! As a fellow engineer that tickled my fancy bigtime!:D

I know just what you mean. Sometimes I think that a plastic pocket protector is the highest fashion item they own!

Mind you - when I started out as an engineer I was the only female there, so I pretty much got to set the dress code since nobody knew what a female engineer should wear. I upset my boss on the first day by listening to my mother (thanks Mum) and wearing a skirt (no hose by the way) because she insisted that no woman should ever start a new job in pants! He was apalled!:eek:

Since then the crimes against fashion that I have perpetrated are truly worthy of my profession. The denim shorts were probably the worst - patched them until all the patches damned near joined together! Sometimes I wish there was a giant trapdoor that could swallow the stupid moments of the past!:o

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Originally Posted by shootingstar

It's not like being asked to wear a head covering in an fundamentalist Islamic country.

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Ahem. Is it like a French woman being asked to wear something above the waist when she sunbathes on American beaches?

Okay, discussions about hijab are pretty far beyond this thread... but it raises my hackles when people suggest that OUR standards of modesty are reasonable and properly enforceable by law, and OTHER cultures' standards of modesty are not reasonable and should not be enforced by law.

I do not "look under the table" and peek at people's socks. What I described is just available to view, when people sit down.
I *do* care how I look. I love living in my athletic type clothes when not in a professional situation and I like being outdoors and getting dirty. But, when I am at work, I like looking a certain way. For 30 years I worked in a profession where the range of acceptable dress was wide. When I was young, I looked really young. In my second job, the lunch lady tried to stop me from going behind the counter to buy the teacher's salad. This was in a school that only went up to sixth grade! So, I wore suits, dresses, or dressy skirts. And hose. I found both students and parents reacted in a different way, as opposed to when I was dressed down.
In the last 15 years I changed my style to more business casual. But, I rarely wore jeans to school. I like buying clothes, so be it. But now, I spend more on my cycling and running stuff...
Now that I am in grad school full time, I have observed that the younger students actually dress better than most of the ones closer to my age. I was surprised to see that many of them wear skirts. I am not talking about prim, dressed up clothes, but stylish skirts and pants that look quite fashionable.
Wow, this thread has morphed a bit. To me, it's like the make up discussion that comes up every so often. Yeah, I wear make up, get my hair highlighted, wear nail polish. And I like to dress up. I guess I don't get why people think this is so horrible. I am not really a girly-girl, but even if I was, so what?
Those lawyers asking those questions :mad::mad:!

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Originally Posted by CA_in_NC

These were lawyers. Who represent plaintiffs in employment law matters.

For some odd reason, lawyers seem to think that the law does not apply to them.

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Is it perhaps because it in fact is not applied to them, i.e. there are not sufficient complaints filed against them and cases that end up in courts to cause them to bother? What if every female candidate sued their @$$ off for asking such questions?

Crankin, caring about how you look is fine. But extending the same standards to other people - not so much. Again, I wonder how you can tell the difference between "ski socks" and any other socks. But then maybe it's socks altogether you find objectionable? I'm really not sure, maybe you were only speaking for yourself after all, it just seemed you were setting a standard for everybody. I actually did not remember who said that, so it was a response to content and not person, and may very well have been taken out of context.

Anyway. One time in my life I have run up against someone I considered hypersensitive on the issue of modes of dress, and she justified it for similar reasons that you give - being short, female, and very young looking, she became overly concerned with appearing "professional" at all times, which for herself might have been fully warranted, but as a university professor, she turned around and tried to apply these same standards to her students. Some of whom (me for example) were significantly older than her.

Now keep in mind that she was not an employer, she was a university level professor at a small regional public college, and we are not talking about comportment and dress at work, but in class settings, not by employees, but grad students. She actually made whether or not she approved of your dress part of your grade.

The fact is that in a therapy setting, dress is appropriate or inappropriate IN CONTEXT. There are settings where you'd better dress to the nines if you want your client's trust and respect, and there are settings where you'd better NOT show up dressed to the nines if you want your client's trust and respect. You need to use a little common sense.

This woman believed and tried to enforce the idea that her standards of dress were ALWAYS appropriate in all situations, and took it a step further in my case to the point where she was downgrading me in class for wearing sandals (not flipflops but sandals) OUTSIDE of class. Then she gave me a C (the graduate level equivalent of a flunking grade) because, she told me, "the profession needs to be protected from you".

Guess who didn't teach that class anymore by the time I was done with her?

Harkening back to another thread, if my only choice in job hunting was a job that required a standard of dress I didn't like, I'd take the job, I'd conform, and I'd keep looking for something better. It's all arbitrary anyway.

But doing so (or not) doesn't change my personal standards. Pantyhose? Haven't worn them in almost 25 years, won't ever wear them again. When I first left home I was so self-conscious of my bare legs I wouldn't wear SHORTS without pantyhose. I got over it, and so has most of society, as time has passed.

I don't wear makeup, and I never will. If I came upon an employer who tried to require me to wear makeup you'd see a lawsuit shortly. IN CONTEXT; there is no job I'm going to be applying for that would have any excuse for making such a requirement.

As far as the hijab and purdah being compared to full frontal nudity, we don't stone women for going topless on the beach. Women in certain areas of the world where Islamic law is trumping secular law are beaten, raped, and killed for so much as showing a strand of hair. It's not even mandated by the Qu'ran. It's something that's barely mentioned in the Hadith, based on varying translations of 3 different sentences.

That's hardly the same thing as going topless and getting fined and maybe arrested.

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Originally Posted by ZenSojourner

we don't stone women for going topless on the beach.

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First of all, the comment I was responding to was one about women being "asked to" cover their hair. In the context of a discussion about what women are "asked to" wear on the job. Not what we're being stoned for doing.

Second, although it's certainly true that some of the behavior you mention is sanctioned by law in some countries, most of it is extrajudicial. A woman in the United States who was raped after walking topless down the street would get very little sympathy from most quarters, either, I'm sorry to say.


And I still think there's a strong chance that asking those questions in a job interview is a test, not a real search for the answers.

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Originally Posted by Crankin

Wow, this thread has morphed a bit. To me, it's like the make up discussion that comes up every so often. Yeah, I wear make up, get my hair highlighted, wear nail polish. And I like to dress up. I guess I don't get why people think this is so horrible. I am not really a girly-girl, but even if I was, so what?

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It's perfectly fine if someone *chooses* to do those things because they like it. The issue is with making it a requirement or an expectation and "forcing" people to do it in order to be acceptable. Especially for impractical, uncomfortable and potentially unhealthy things like hose and heels (and neckties for guys--especially in a clinical setting where they have been SHOWN to be an infection control problem). As for people thinking bare legs (in good condition and under a skirt of a decent length) are "gross", I still don't get it.

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Originally Posted by OakLeaf

Ahem. Is it like a French woman being asked to wear something above the waist when she sunbathes on American beaches?

Okay, discussions about hijab are pretty far beyond this thread... but it raises my hackles when people suggest that OUR standards of modesty are reasonable and properly enforceable by law, and OTHER cultures' standards of modesty are not reasonable and should not be enforced by law.

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I was responding to what is enforced by law, not what is "asked".

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Originally Posted by Grog

Is it perhaps because it in fact is not applied to them, i.e. there are not sufficient complaints filed against them and cases that end up in courts to cause them to bother? What if every female candidate sued their @$$ off for asking such questions?

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Maybe they'd stop asking the questions and using the answers in their hiring decisions! Imagine that! :)

Karen

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Originally Posted by OakLeaf

Honestly, what would you think of men's bare legs in your office?

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This sits in the back of my mind as far as dress code. Is it really fair for women to go hoseless with a dress saying panty hose is hot, yet require men to wear slacks and not shorts? If I hire a man, I might have to face this. What's the difference, really? We like our legs but not men's?

I'm really not trying to force my preferences on my employees. Like I said, we're leaning towards NOT making panty hose a requirement, but I want to be fair - and there are a lot of opinions and preferences, some of them pretty strong -

I am not opposed to socks... in fact I have many many pairs of cycling socks because they are cheap fixes for my addiction to cycling apparel.
My standards are only for me. Your former professor seems slightly, uh, strange. I don't think bare legs are "gross," I just don't think stockings are, either. So, when it's a bit too warm for tights and too cold for bare legs, I wear them.
I have never worked anywhere with a dress code, but I don't think they are so bad in certain situations. I remember when girls had to wear dresses and skirts to school; a bunch of us started wearing jeans to class (in 1968), until the school gave in to us. So, I am not totally unaware of the effects of dress codes. I guess I won't speak any more about the way I dress (except for my wool purchases), because I seem to be in the distinct minority here, which is the total opposite of my real life.
I wish I were still "young," when dressing professionally meant the difference between others thinking whether I was 16 or 30!

Men in shorts . . .

Men in kilts . . .

Be still my beating heart! LOL!

SO MOTE IT BE!

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Originally Posted by Tuckervill

Maybe they'd stop asking the questions and using the answers in their hiring decisions! Imagine that! :)

Karen

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I used their answers in my decision as to whether to accept their offer, that's for sure:)

CA

My two cents on the hose issue is they should not be required, however, I support an HR policy that states "professional and neat appearance". This would cover you if you need to request somebody where them for whatever reason.

Personally, for me, it all depends on the shoe. Hose seems to prevent foot sweat from building up in the shoe (don't ask me how, that's just an observation). Some of the shoes I wear with a suit just start making noises if I don't wear hose. IMHO that is not professional and makes me self conscious and uncomfortable, so I wear hose with those particular shoes.

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Originally Posted by ZenSojourner

Men in shorts . . .

Men in kilts . . .

Be still my beating heart! LOL!

SO MOTE IT BE!

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Sorry, I just get flashes of that guy in "Reno 911." :eek::p

My first job in a department store, they wanted us to dress professionally (in dresses), wear hose, 1977 to 1980

1980 to 1986 Corporate headquarters for retailer, hose, professional, slacks were okay, no open toe shoes.

1986 to 1999 Law Firms of various sizes and types of law (except entertainment law) in downtown Los Angeles Professional attire (suits) , hose, towards the end of the nineties, this started to slack off a bit. Heck for a while when casual fridays first started, they told us no jeans.

1999 to Now-Large corporations, engineering and accounting, no mention of hose, just professional attire. A professional skirt, blouse usually does it.

Thing is I've always worked in HR or Office Management. So I've always had to dress one step up from everyone else, to set the example. If I came into work in a mid-driff or worn clothing, low cut tops, jeans, dockers, sandals, t-shirts, short skirst, etc, well it would be very frowned upon very much.

I don't know how to not wear hose with some shoes, heels, pumps. So I wear hose depending on the shoe and the skirt.

Right now I'm wearing Jeans, with slack socks and heeled hush puppies and a blue sweater set. Boring I know, but I'm not hear to impress people with my stylish outfits, I have a job to do.

On weekends, it is sandal, shorts and a t--shirt.

Hope this helps.

Mind you I have to wear these outfits, but do style my clothes for my tastes. I can't wear

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Originally Posted by OakLeaf

Sorry, I just get flashes of that guy in "Reno 911." :eek::p

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Oh thank you very much!

You just HAD to go and spoil it for me, didn't you?

LIAM NEESON! COME BACK! SHE DIDN'T MEAN IT!

Thread hijack, I know, but on the subject of dress codes: U of Oregon to Frisbee team: No pants, no season :eek:

Anyway, back to the work place - when I still worked in the office (I telecommute full-time now), one reason I rarely wore skirts is that I hated wearing hose. Perhaps now it is more acceptable to not wear hose, but I also hate wearing (work-appropriate) shoes with bare feet.

I really enjoyed reading the various viewpoints in this thread. I recently read an article about how millennials, Gen Xers and baby boomers get along in the workplace, and the issue of dress code (and even panty hose specifically) was discussed as well in the context of generational differences. Reading this thread, to me it seems as much a practical issue as a generational one.

I never liked hose, and here no one wears hose anymore. (not even in the courts as far as I've seen.) pantyhose under pants?????

as for with some shoes, here we can get mini-socks that are for pumps or ballet flats. They're very thin but thicker than panty hose and just cover the part of the foot that is in the shoe. I think its a japanese/korean invention.
I wear those...