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I have a small idea for the for sale area.
Over at BNA, a person needs to have at least 10 posts prior to selling anything on the forum. It is possible to think about that one here?? I see someone with only one post selling something & think..who is this person & why should i buy from them? We've had a few of those here haven't we?
It's just a thought.
If it helps any Bike4Ever is heavily involved in the biking community here, especially promoting women's cycling. I don't know her as a friend but I know of her and I've seen her many a time at the Trailnet rides working on people's bikes and I've noticed the many women's mountain bike rides she's led. Nearly every time I've seen her she's helping someone out. Seems that's just how she is. I'll be honored when I finally get the chance to ride in one of her groups. :)
My 2 cents, just 'cause we've not all met everyone here and while she might not be going about things the right way on this issue, she's still a decent person who'd be good to know, if you get the chance.
I've been following this thread the past few days and one thing has kind of struck me in the conversation.
People have mentioned that it's very generous of Team Estrogen to have created a forum on their dime. Other people have compared the feel at this forum to other cycling boards. What seems to be being overlooked is that this message board is not affiliated with a group or organization, it is affiliated with an on-line store. Personally, I'm impressed not by the fact that they created a free message board, but by the fact that they felt it benefited the forum to create a FS section.
Amongst the many functions that it serves for us, this message board is a marketing tool for TE. While the FS posts in question in this thread are for an item category that TE doesn't sell (bikes), other items have been posted that could be considered to be in direct conflict with the Team Estrogen on-line store. To me, that's what's generous of the TE folks, that they don't seem to be highly concerned about that competition and apparently willingly created a place for board members to trade and sell used items, many of which are from the same categories as the TE store. While I don't feel strongly one way or the other about the specific situation in this thread (though I will say the original post reminded me a teeny bit of Smurf's recent hurt feelings/I'm leaving post), I do think that says something about the character of the people running both the on-line store and the forum.
Exactly, it's a marketing tool - therefore I'm sure TE have looked very closely at how the forum benefits them as a company. If there was any danger of the FS section having a serious impact on their profits, I suspect it would not be here. However, chances are the benefits of people attracted to the forum partly by the FS section far outweigh any potentially lost sales. Afaic it's no different to companies giving away freebies - they might have sold those items instead, but gain more in the long run by giving away a certain amount of goods for free.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalidurga
I haven't got a problem with that, at the end of the day, it's perfectly clear when you sign up that the forum is affiliated to a store, you know what you get - I'm just too cynical to take it at face value and believe it's all just a random act of kindness.
I'm curious about one thing: IIRC and excepting the recent used/unused bike that someone never took out of the box :confused:, the OP's numerous bike FS ads have promised that the bikes are 'professionally boxed' prior to shipment. If the OP's shop is boxing the bike and charging for it, then the FS ads are in violation of the Forum rules. Therefore, this is not "personal," it's a matter of abiding by the guidelines, which is a reasonable expectation of anyone making use of a free service.
I still wonder why the OP would threaten to leave the board because of this. I'm sure others have had posts removed, for whatever reason, and remained active members. It's also very troubling that the OP would take this public & accuse others of "targeting" her, knowing that it would potentially make the Admins look unreasonable.
Precisely. :cool:
+1
And now folks, move on, after 45 posts, there's nothing more to see here....
http://home.arcor.de/m-g-b/Bilder/london/bobby.jpg
That's your interpretation. I wouldn't think it strange at all if a private "personal" party selling a bike paid to have it professionally packaged to ensure it would survive the trip via UPS or FedEx. Just seems prudent and not "commercial" to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by mickchick
Take a look at ebay, for example. It's common sense to pay someone to pack up an expensive item professionally.
I find this whole thread rather strange. And I agree with tantrumbean that it's very weird the way people are jumping on the "follow the rules" bandwagon. Americans (and I am one) are just plain weird about "rules."
If you had a guest in your home and you had asked them to stop swearing in front of your children and they didn't, what would you do?
This forum is not ours. It belongs to TE. We are guests in their "home" and as such we need to abide by their rules.
Veronica
And if prior to holding a private conversation, they publicly berated you for asking you not to swear in front of their children, what would you do?
My teacher father always swore that he ran a democratic classroom with full freedom of choice. You could do what he said or get out. I'm an American and not weird about "rules" when in someone else's business, home, classroom, etc. It's simple courtesy and respect to obide by them.
There's an additional consideration:Quote:
Originally Posted by Veronica
- The Admins have a life! Let's not impose an unnecessary burden on them by pushing the envelope.
This group generally does a good job of self-policing the debates...and frankly I'm concerned that Susan felt in a position to have to actually defend her actions in the debate. JMHO
That, I will agree with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by ilima
Actually I will go as far to say that I find this thread disturbing and downright disgusting.
Well, that's where you lost me.Quote:
And I agree with tantrumbean that it's very weird the way people are jumping on the "follow the rules" bandwagon. Americans (and I am one) are just plain weird about "rules."
It's not rules, it's courtesy.
It's consideration.
It's respect.
You think that's weird?
Well, then maybe you would be happier at another forum.
I think you're all weird that we should have 4 pages of people going back on this. And I don't think this thread should degenerate to suggesting other people need to find another forum as well.
Yes, this forum is a courtesy provided by team estrogen that I'm quite happy to have found and be on - but let's not forget that this forum also brings team estrogen quite a lot in terms of customers and advertising. Many women who would not necessarily have found team estrogen for buying clothing or whatever (because... the prices are often the same as the local bike shop or rei... the selection is definitely better), have found this forum through searching on the internet looking for comfortable saddle reviews or something like that... have found the forum to be a great resource, and have thus chose to support team estrogen's store. And I think it's a great strategy by the owners of team estrogen - they provide a service to the community and build a base of customers simultaneously.
As for biking selling, I really am not bothered too much either way. I like for old bikes to get recycled to new owners that would be happy to love them. I bought a frame off here that I'm quite happy with. It does say in the rules no commercial postings - but I know I've posted a couple of times items that were going to end up on ebay if I don't sell them here and stated it. Does that make me a commercial seller? I don't buy anything specifically to resell on here or ebay, but I do try to clear out stuff that I'm not using and I'm usually happy to break even or lose a little bit. If my sister wants to sell her old bike rack - can I post it on here, or should I have her make a new account, make at least 10 posts so you guys know who she is and then post it to sell?
You're losing sight of what started all this in the first place. You're talking about selling a few of your own things here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catriona
If I understand it correctly, the OP has been selling items on behalf of other people, many things, and thus acting as a dealer.
Like you pointed out, it says in the forum rules no commercial postings. According to her own posts, a couple of pages back :) ,Susan did discuss the matter with the OP (contrary to the OP's assertions).
But the OP didn't like Susan's decision. Apparently the OP didn't think the forum policy should apply to her, so she went to the forum to try to paint Susan as unfair and unresponsive. Those of us who know Susan (even only slightly, like myself), know that she is neither.
Some of us, myself included, have been up in arms about this it is because we admire and respect Susan and deeply appreciate what she is doing for the women's cycling community by hosting this forum. Jeff and Susan set up some forum rules and policies with the assumption that posters would act like grownups and accept those policies as a condition of being here. The only condition of being here.
Speaking only for myself, I'm dismayed at how easily some people here are willing to disregard and second-guess and re-interpret the requests of our hosts. Jeff and Susan deserve better.
You know, I'm developing a headache from beating my head against a wall here.
Many of us have posted items for sale, that's what the For Sale/Wanted forum is for. But, when a bike shop manager posts 9 different bikes for sale, the alarms go off, the complaints pour in. After receiving a number of said complaints, I deleted her posts. It's done, it's over, let's move on.
As my son would say: Dead horse smoothie...
Who exactly do you think you are to tell me to go to another forum?Quote:
Originally Posted by jobob
Yes, I realize Susan/te provides this forum and others volunteer to be moderators. For that I am grateful.
But I was also under the impression this was a community. A community with fluid boundaries of decorum.
You are exactly the type of "rules" person I find baffling. The type that doesn't realize that rules are never meant to apply to 100% of situations. Rules are meant to apply to the vast majority of situations, but not all. And that's the problem.
Rules folks like yourself think they are black and white "well it says right here" without even trying to logically think about said rule. Sometimes rules need interpretation (hello Supreme Court for an example!).
I like the genial demeanor of this forum. But I have found this thread strange in many ways.
I have always been very happy with the customer service from te and will continue to order from here (although it's been quite a few months). Perhaps I will stick to RBR, though.
But isn't that the point? It wasn't "genial" of the OP to attack her host. I kinda like the rule that says you don't attack your host unless they are about to commit bodily harm.Quote:
Originally Posted by ilima
I don't know any other specifics about the OP's behavior except what's been posted, but I did witness the lack of courtesy by the OP - and I'm really surprised at the people who seem to think this is acceptable.
I think part of the problem is that there are now (at least) two different issues on this thread that have got mixed up:
One: The commercial selling aspect. This is clearly not allowed and if it has been established for sure that that is what the OP is doing, then obviously TE is totally within their rights to remove those posts. That's clearly covered in the forum guidelines, makes perfect sense and therefore should not really require too much discussion (apart from the fact that the OP's idea to what constitutes a commercial post does not necessarily match admins). I have not seen the posts, but I can see that there might potentially be a grey area.
Point 2 is the discussion if this should have been discussed publicly on the forum or not. Now that both admin and the op have stated what happened, it's pretty clear that there are two different versions of the story. I don't know which one is the right one, but both parties clearly feel they have done what they should have done to sort it out. Which leaves the discussion about should forum members be allowed to take things public when they feel (note the word: "feel") that they have not had the response they feel the issue warrants from admin.
Afaic that is a completely different point and has not necessary anything to do with the OP at all, it's a general issue that could probly apply to lots of situations.
I thinks it's throwing both those issues in the same pot that's caused this discussion to get quite heated and possibly caused members to misunderstand each others responses.
Maybe it would be worth adding a "Feedback" or "TE office" subforum, most forums I know have these, and it might be a good place to post anything from "Could the background colour be changed, I'm struggling to see it", "Anybody else having problems with the forum running slow?" to "Why was I not allowed to sell my puppy on here" and it would possible make some of the decisions taken in the background more transparent and a more public conversation with admin would allow everybody to get their views across.
I agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by snapdragen
I think this whole thread should be deleted. It's really a matter between the forum owners and the OP and doesn't need to be endlessly dissected and debated by the rest of us.
Yep, I'm with Lisa. It's a bit of poison in an otherwise tranquil lake.
Karen
Quote:
Originally Posted by BleeckerSt_Girl
Put it on ignore, hopefully it will die a quick death and not get resurrected.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuckervill
It's Susan and Jeff's sandbox - we just get to play in it.
Wow. I love getting to know people over the course of such an elaborate discussion!! Yet another reason I love TE!!!
One point: whether or not it was commercial, whether or not it was OK or not, etc etc etc. At the heart of the matter if I am seriously shopping for a bike I am going to be all over roadbikereview, ebay, craigslist, etc. Its just overkill to list two places at once. Really.
Not that I really feel that I should extend this discussion (but yet I can't resist this train wreck). I think to some extent Bike4ever bringing this up publicly is valid since her messages are being flagged, which is what's alerting the mods to them to delete them. It's not like she can explain what she's selling and why to the people that are flagging her posts, any other way than to start a thread on it. So now the people who are flagging her, know her side of the story. We didn't really need to know the details of her interactions with the forum moderators or owners though.
And since as far as I can tell, even though I haven't been around here very long... Bike4ever's really helpful & knowledgable with her suggestions, I think we should all give her the benefit of the doubt and not instantly suspect her of nefarious commercial selling or attack her or anyone else over this. I'm sure that the bike shop she works for has way more than the 8 or 9 bikes she's listed on here for sale.
+1 Couldn't have said it better myself!Quote:
Originally Posted by Catriona
So rules only apply to people who are new to the forum and only to people who ask for advice, not to those who give it? What if they give bad advice, does that count?
Veronica
Nope, I said to give her the benefit of a doubt, not to let her run rampant all over the forums doing whatever she wants. Assume honesty and not guilt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Veronica
It's part of being civil about a dispute.
If a newly created account posts 8 bikes to sell, then go ahead and assume the worst about their motivations.
And if a newly created account posts 8 bikes to sell and hates on steel, mixtes, ti bikes, and wool, then we should just go ahead and stone them.
not that I should be adding to this.. but I just can't help myself.
Seems someone got her hand caught in the cookie jar, and now is upset about the "punishment".
I remember last fall, nov/ december maybe there were ad's for some small womens bikes- I want to say trek wsd models, but my memory is fuzzy. I remember that the seller had multiple units of the same bike for sale.That seemed VERY commercial to me. I remember thinking that I didn't feel it was appropriate to use the forum in that way.
I can't remember if that seller was the OP, but I think it was???
I put my old used road bike up once, but it's a 5 yr old specialized so hardly a commercial post.
Heck I have a few 08 models I'd love to get rid of, and a boatload of sugoi clothing taking up space on my racks. But I would NEVER think of posting that stuff here. It just wouldn't be right.
I'm sure that the OP is a great person, and she has offered me advice in the past. But there are rules people. Rules... And when it's known that you work in a shop your FS items are going to be scrutinized a bit more than others. Esp. if you post FS items often. I would think anyway??
Cheers to all.
Oh- and I have spoken with Susan on the phone in the past about some charity items. She is my role model! A very warm caring person, and a savvy businesswoman too!
Oh gawd, I thought this was dead.
Before she has a private discussion with Susan? Color me astonished.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catriona
. . . .
I'm sure she's been helpful, but that doesn't excuse the public attack on her host.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catriona
Susan is probably one of the most approachable people/business owners I've ever spoken to. I can't imagine any reason anyone needs to publicly state a beef about her decisions and her forum before talking to her.
Mods, can we kill the thread?
I don't think I'll ever understand this new way of thinking that the anonymity of the internet gives one permission to disobey common rules of courtesy.
As much as I might like to see the thread die, closing the thread would regrettably play into the hands of members who feel like we (admins) are squashing an open discussion of policies.Quote:
Originally Posted by SadieKate
So, no matter what I do, I'd make someone unhappy or mad or sad or threaten to leave. None of which I'd like to see happen.
I'd very much like to thank everyone for their frankness. And for the most part, the discussion has stayed quite civil, which again, I thank you for. Over the years, one of things I've been most impressed about is how civil these forums are, so unlike so many other forums on the internet. I'd like to think it's because we've found so much more to celebrate as a community, rather than finding discord in our differences.
As someone pointed out in an earlier post, the thread seems to have split somewhat into 2 parts. 1) a discussion of the OP selling potentially commercial items on the forums, which is not a permitted practice, and 2) a discussion of how policies are developed and reviewed on the forums.
In regards to point one - as I've stated, our policy is to not permit commercial posts. Period. We happily and freely provide a For Sale/Wanted section on the forums for the buying/selling/trading of used personal items. We have no intent to charge for that service. I'm delighted to hear that so many people have had successful transactions finding a new home for someone else's unwanted items. Unfortunately for the OP, she has, over many months, listed items that were "new", "test-ridden", "professionally boxed", etc., sometimes in multiple units. Because of the overwhelmingly commercial appearance of these posts, those postings were moderated. The OP was not asked to leave the forums. As many have noted, her advice and input over her time in the forums have been very valuable to many in the forum community, and we are delighted to have her be a part of it. What's important for everyone to understand is that we would have moderated the offending For Sale posts, REGARDLESS of her tenure here on the forums.
As to point two (discussion of how policies are developed and reviewed on the forums), I'm very torn about what to do about this. The democratic thing for me to do would be to create a subforum where these types of discussions could take place. I'm *somewhat* open to that idea. My reservation about it, if I may be so frank, is that the reality is that administering these forums is not my full-time job. I have a business to run, a task that requires all of my concentration in the current economic climate. I don't think that any of the forum's current rules are onerous, and having the rules in place has so far allowed these forums to run pretty much autonomously for quite a few years. So, again speaking frankly, I feel like I would be creating a solution (a subforum) in search of a problem that isn't that much of a problem.
It's Monday, I have a boatload of paperwork on my desk, so I'm off to get some work done.
I hope everyone has a wonderful day, complete with sunshine and tailwinds.
Susan