Clipless pedals: Frogs vs. SPDs

So I was on the fence between frogs and candies b/c I was worried about too much float v. not enough float. I have a bad knee, and at the advice of the wonderful members of this board I scheduled an appointment with an orthopedist to figure out if I wanted to allow movement or to stabilize the knee, but I had to schedule it way out and then ultimately had to cancel at the last minute b/c my husband was sick. I'd been riding in a great a pair of Specialized MTB shoes with a really stiff sole (not carbon, but very, very stiff) and love them, but they're hard to get into the toe clips, so I got fed up and just went and bought frogs the other day. After two short rides I've got pain all around my bad knee (underneath mostly on the inside, but sensitive all around the kneecap and behind the knee) and pain in both ankles. I've found that if I bend my knee, turn my heel out and press down (as I might when pedaling) I have a lot of pain on the inside below the kneecap, and I'm sure it's from the float that I now have (that I didn't have with the toeclips) allowing me to turn my heel out.

Mudmucker - your post confirmed what I was thinking and saved me another week of trying to make it work. Thanks!!!

I'm off to get the candies...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Flur

So I was on the fence between frogs and candies b/c I was worried about too much float v. not enough float. I have a bad knee, and at the advice of the wonderful members of this board I scheduled an appointment with an orthopedist to figure out if I wanted to allow movement or to stabilize the knee, but I had to schedule it way out and then ultimately had to cancel at the last minute b/c my husband was sick. I'd been riding in a great a pair of Specialized MTB shoes with a really stiff sole (not carbon, but very, very stiff) and love them, but they're hard to get into the toe clips, so I got fed up and just went and bought frogs the other day. After two short rides I've got pain all around my bad knee (underneath mostly on the inside, but sensitive all around the kneecap and behind the knee) and pain in both ankles. I've found that if I bend my knee, turn my heel out and press down (as I might when pedaling) I have a lot of pain on the inside below the kneecap, and I'm sure it's from the float that I now have (that I didn't have with the toeclips) allowing me to turn my heel out.

Mudmucker - your post confirmed what I was thinking and saved me another week of trying to make it work. Thanks!!!

I'm off to get the candies...

---

I have that kind of pain too. It started long before I got Speedplay Pedals. It's called Chrondomalacia or patellofemoral syndrome. It's a chronic condition that requires stretching and strengthening the muscles around the knees to keep it under control. When it flairs up I have to back off my cycling, take anti-inflammatories, stretch, ice, etc.

High mileage at the beginning of the season and pedaling at low cadences or hill climbing too soon also sets it off. When it started this year I only felt pain on the bike but I know if I let it go it will become painful all the time.

If the Candies don't help see your orthopedist.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kathi

I have that kind of pain too. It started long before I got Speedplay Pedals. It's called Chrondomalacia or patellofemoral syndrome. It's a chronic condition that requires stretching and strengthening the muscles around the knees to keep it under control. When it flairs up I have to back off my cycling, take anti-inflammatories, stretch, ice, etc.

High mileage at the beginning of the season and pedaling at low cadences or hill climbing too soon also sets it off. When it started this year I only felt pain on the bike but I know if I let it go it will become painful all the time.

If the Candies don't help see your orthopedist.

---

Kathi-

I just found out that I too have patellofemoral syndrome and my doc showed me some exercises to do, etc. But reading this thread I realized that I only have had the pain this year (when using speedplay light actions) but had none at all last year (with look pedals). Admittedly I have done a lot more riding this year and certainly more hill climbing, so that could be it too. The knee pain really started on about the 3rd day or so of bike tour colorado. Do you think there's a chance the knee pain is related to the pedals? Just curious..

I have regular Speedplays on my road bike shoes, lots of float, nice click sound and feel when I clip in. I now have MTB shoes with Frogs that I bought for my America by Bicycle tour (will report later) this July. My DH had to carve out a bit of my MTB shoes to set the cleats to get enough "toe out" float for my knees, and this worked out fine. I do find it a mystery how and when I clip into the pedals. No consistent "click" or feel of being engaged in the pedal until I pull up on the pedal to check if I am clipped in or not. But yes, they are insanely easy to get out of! And walking on the MTB shoes (specializd Moto Divas) was a real pleasure for touring. Tokie

Sorry I didn't read the last posts! I always had patellar pain too, and am diagnosed with chondromalacia patella. PT didn't help all that much. Then I bought some Specialized women's cycling shoes. They are designed with "Varus Wedge" , which has miraculously and enormously reduced my patellar pain. Whenever I have tried returning to my old favorites(Sidi brand), my knee pain returns with a vengence. So I am a convert to Specialized shoes. might be worth a try.It has also helped to practice one leg pedaling drills to strengthen my quads and get my patellas to track better. (I finally found a PT who figured out how to help me!) Good luck! Tokie

your PT should be able to put medial wedges in all your street shoes and in your Sidis, too. If the free wedges (red self-stick things) your PT uses cramp your Sidis too much, you can get very cool forefoot wedges (solid white plastic non-stick things) made by Specialized that will wedge you in any bike shoe by 1.5 degrees. If your PT decides you need more than 1.5 degrees, you can double up on the Specialized wedges without losing much space in the Sidis.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Beane

Kathi-

I just found out that I too have patellofemoral syndrome and my doc showed me some exercises to do, etc. But reading this thread I realized that I only have had the pain this year (when using speedplay light actions) but had none at all last year (with look pedals). Admittedly I have done a lot more riding this year and certainly more hill climbing, so that could be it too. The knee pain really started on about the 3rd day or so of bike tour colorado. Do you think there's a chance the knee pain is related to the pedals? Just curious..

---

I can't answer your question but here's how I approach my knee pain. First I look at the bike and think about "what changed?"

When you changed to Speedplays did you change your saddle height to accomodate the differences in stack height between the two pedals? Incorrect saddle height can really mess up sensitive knees.

How long did you have the Speedplays before doing BTC?

Making a change in equipment, no matter how small, can cause havoc to the body if you don't deal with the changes slowly. Even though I don't notice the "float" or don't consider it any more than on pedals with less float it could bother your knees if you went to far to soon. I had one of my bikes professionally fitted and made all the changes at once. Then I went on a 3 day tour and road 50-60 miles each day. I continued long rides and it took me a month to get used to the changes (aches and pains in places I never had) and I was thinking the fit was all wrong. Finally, after the aches and pains went away I realized how much better off I was with the new fit.

If I can't find any thing different with the bike then I take a look at my training so:

How much did you train before you did BTC? How hard and how fast did you start out? Did you do hill training? Did you train for long distances?

When I start a new activity I start small. Since I ski in the winter my first spring bike rides are not over 10 miles, mostly flat. I slowly increase the mileage each week. After 500 miles or so I start hill training, easy at first then adding tougher hills. After 1,000 miles or so I seem to be able to ride anything without issue. Keeping my cadence high 80-90 rpm keeps my knees happy. While I can climb at 50-60 rpm's I can't do it for long.

My last thought is are you doing your exercise and stretching routine on a regular basis? It's hard to do it when you feel no pain but for this kind of knee condition it's imperative that you do it on regularly.

I messed up my knee in June because I didn't follow my own training guidelines, wasn't doing my exercises and stretching and tried doing a 3 hr climb near the Canyon of the Black Gunnison. Even with the long downhill my average cadence wasn't over 70 rpm. The next day we rode the "easy" side of the Canyon of the Black Gunnison and I only made it 6.5 miles before I had to turn around. I'm still feeling the effects.

Foam rollers and self massage helps alot and, of course, ibuprofin and ice.

This condition is tricky and one ortho I saw told me "you can be doing everything right (meaning exercise, stretching) and still have pain, or you can be doing nothing (no exercise, stretching) and be fine". I let myself coast from the intensive ACL rehab I did 2 years ago and am now paying the price.

If you decide to do another Colorado tour, or just a tour, Ride the Rockies has training guidelines to help riders prepare for the ride. I'm currently using the guidelines for a ride next month in N. Dakota.

Hope this helps you. Unfortunately, this condition is one you will have to learn to manage, it is lifelong, and will not go away.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kathi

I can't answer your question but here's how I approach my knee pain. First I look at the bike and think about "what changed?"

When you changed to Speedplays did you change your saddle height to accomodate the differences in stack height between the two pedals? Incorrect saddle height can really mess up sensitive knees.

How long did you have the Speedplays before doing BTC?

How much did you train before you did BTC? How hard and how fast did you start out? Did you do hill training? Did you train for long distances?

My last thought is are you doing your exercise and stretching routine on a regular basis? It's hard to do it when you feel no pain but for this kind of knee condition it's imperative that you do it on regularly.

---

I think the main thing was just not putting in enough miles before the miles and climbing of BTC.

I had the speedplays on the bike all spring before BTC.. I did maybe 1300 miles or so on them. The other issue is that it was my first real season on my new bike (less than 20 miles before winter hit.. and while I did trainer miles its not the same..), so it really could be any number of things. I guess I will just need to be diligent about the exercises & stretches and get used to the pain!

Thanks for the advice!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dachshund

I can clip out of the Speedplay x5's easily enough. I'm guessing that the other Speedplay pedals are similar since they have the same shape. But I have trouble clipping in because there's no "bumper" or physical feedback to tell me my foot it in the right position.

I can clip into the Look Keo's fine, but for some reason the foot motion required to get out isn't working for me. I had this same issue with a set of Shimano pedals.

So what I need is the Speedplay shape with some sort of bumper to get in.
Does this exist in real life?

---

Have you tried the Keo Easy pedals? They are supposed to have lower tension to make it easier to get out of for people who have the problem you do. You just rotate your heel either direction, like with other pedal systems, to unclip.

I like Keos with 4.5 degrees of float. I started out with 9 degrees, but I couldn't sprint, and I couldn't even stand up well without feeling like I was going to rip the cleat off my shoe. There was just too much wasted energy laterally. I don't like fixed cleats, though, because my joints and tendons like to have a little wiggle room.

I hate SPDs for a variety of reasons. I'm all about large platforms. Cafe covers help with walkability, but then I guess it depends on how much you need to walk and how important that is to you.

Maybe someone can help me. I have had clipless pedals. I am new, so I don't know all the terms. They are Shirmo pedal. I don't have knee pain, however I feel like it takes alot for me to clip out. Hubby said he has it on the least tension, however I took another fall last night and this one hurt. I am too old to be taking falls. Don't want to end up breaking something. And this fall happen with a car nearby. He thinks I should go back to regular pedals, for now, however I really like the flow I have with the clipless shoes. I am doing something wrong or is it that you are not able to clip out fast. I am new to riding, only about 3 months. I was so excited to have 300 miles on last night since I got my bike, then the excitment went away as I was cleaning out my knee. Any suggestions for me.

Do you have dirt and debris in your cleat? Are your toes going numb so you can't feel if you're unclipping? (that happens to me) You might try the kind of pedal that has one side clipless and the other side regular. It helps with places where you have to stop and start a lot.

This is a road bike, so no dirt is not my issues. I just didn't know if I could try doing something else. I really don't want to give up the clipless shoes, however I also don't want to worry I am going to fall again.

I know it might be expensive, but there are other kinds of clipless pedals to use, I've been researching this myself. Here's a website that explains some basics, but there are also a lot of threads on this forum that you can search.
http://www.shopwiki.com/wiki/Bike+Pedals

I've used the Shimano spd pedals for a couple of years. Yesterday I purchased bike4ever's speedplay frogs from the "for sale" thread. I can't believe the difference. I've taught ballet most of my life and my toes turn waaaaay out. With the float on the frogs I am completely comfortable! And are they easy to get out of. Not once did they come unclipped accidentally. Almost as if they read my mind and anticipate what I want. Only one ride on them, but I'm sold!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aicabsolut

Have you tried the Keo Easy pedals? They are supposed to have lower tension to make it easier to get out of for people who have the problem you do. You just rotate your heel either direction, like with other pedal systems, to unclip.

I like Keos with 4.5 degrees of float. I started out with 9 degrees, but I couldn't sprint, and I couldn't even stand up well without feeling like I was going to rip the cleat off my shoe. There was just too much wasted energy laterally. I don't like fixed cleats, though, because my joints and tendons like to have a little wiggle room.

I hate SPDs for a variety of reasons. I'm all about large platforms. Cafe covers help with walkability, but then I guess it depends on how much you need to walk and how important that is to you.

---

Would you mind explaining why you prefer large platforms? Do they provide more comfort and stability?

I appreciate everyone's reply. I'm buying a pair of Sidi Dominators which are MTBs (recessed cleat). I know that limits my choices but I want a recessed cleat. I think I want a platform on one side and clipess on the other, but I'm not sure. Some of our rides are stop and go in traffic and I'm wondering if clipless will be very difficult to master in those conditions. Someone mentioned a pedal that has a platform on one side and enables the rider to rest the foot until it is safe to clip in -- I can't remember the name of that one now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yen

Would you mind explaining why you prefer large platforms? Do they provide more comfort and stability?

I appreciate everyone's reply. I'm buying a pair of Sidi Dominators which are MTBs (recessed cleat). I know that limits my choices but I want a recessed cleat. I think I want a platform on one side and clipess on the other, but I'm not sure. Some of our rides are stop and go in traffic and I'm wondering if clipless will be very difficult to master in those conditions. Someone mentioned a pedal that has a platform on one side and enables the rider to rest the foot until it is safe to clip in -- I can't remember the name of that one now.

---

Large platforms can help if you suffer from hot spots (sore spots on the bottoms of your feet) - they distribute the force over a greater area on your foot. I used recessed SPD's on mt bike shoes for years and I never had a problem with hot spots. I do however have a small foot.... so even a small platform is fairly big for me. I still do sometimes use my mt bike shoes with Crank Bro's pedals during winter training rides. I think I notice a performance difference more because the mt bike shoes are more loose than because of the cleat style.

If you are racing it can also give you better power transfer to have a larger platform to push down on. This is going to be most noticeable in places like a sprint where you are really putting a lot of power into the pedals.

As far as dual sided pedals go. I think I've only seen them in SPD's, but that may have changed since the last time I looked.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yen

Would you mind explaining why you prefer large platforms? Do they provide more comfort and stability?

I appreciate everyone's reply. I'm buying a pair of Sidi Dominators which are MTBs (recessed cleat). I know that limits my choices but I want a recessed cleat. I think I want a platform on one side and clipess on the other, but I'm not sure. Some of our rides are stop and go in traffic and I'm wondering if clipless will be very difficult to master in those conditions. Someone mentioned a pedal that has a platform on one side and enables the rider to rest the foot until it is safe to clip in -- I can't remember the name of that one now.

---

Crank Bros pedals might be a good option for you b/c all their pedals can be clipped in on either side, but they also have both small and large platform pedals that can be ridden easily without clipping in. This makes things easier b/c then you don't have to worry about flipping your pedal - you just clip in or not depending on what you want to do.

I did my first real ride on my candies today (Crank Bros "small platform" pedal). We rode a really popular path today, that has a number of road crossings with stops, and it was a beautiful day so there was a lot of bike and rollerblade traffic to the point where we had a few sudden stops. I had no issues with getting in and out of my pedals, even for the sudden stops, and I did pedal quite a few times across streets without clipping in without any issues.

Whatever pedal you pick, it really helps if before you put them on the bike, you take some time in your new shoes on your regular pedals to work on "unclipping". Each time you stop, think about rotating your foot out of the pedal. I did this for a couple of weeks before I got my pedals, I would just turn out my heel at each stop before putting my foot down. I really think that's helped me with my transition.