Loner Manners?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SlowButSteady

:confused: If your usually ride alone, how are you supposed to learn this stuff, by osmosis?

Having a bunch of bike-club folks act generally snobby & unfriendly to me doesn't exactly make you want to go out and join a club, either.

...in which case I still don't learn.

---

Threads like this are good for getting a feel for what bikers feel....too bad a reprimand is someone's solution for telling you what they want, imagine if that's how teachers taught our children! Awful!

I usually say 'hello' from as far back as someone might be able to hear soft-spoken me and they generally acknowledge with either a move or verbally. I know a lot of people like 'on your left' but when on a bike path
half the time when I say that the target...er....person....moves left. :eek:

Well, don't worry about the Mr. Gruffpantses, we all make mistakes even after we think we've learned what we need to know. At least you're trying! 'Fore you know it, you'll be helping others learn bike etiquette, though I'll bet in a much kinder manner.:)

I've been watching this thread for quite a while and I'm sorry, but I just don't really get it. Drafting is a part of this sport - I will usually say hi to someone that I am going the same speed as when I'm out on a ride or event, because I'm a fairly friendly person, but someone drafting on my back wheel JUST DOES NOT BOTHER ME! I have never been taken out from behind - it is the person that cuts over on my front wheel, runs into the side of me and pushes me into the dirt or doesnt paceline well that bugs me. If it is just me and another person and they are drafting me, I figure they must need a break, I'm stronger and I'm happy to pull them. If I need a break, I just move to the right, slow down and ask them to pull a while. Simple as that. No animosity, no worry, no nada, just part of biking. If I'm uncomfortable with the skills someone has, I either help them, or I get away from them.

Yeah, that's my thought, I'm Stronger! So go ahead and draft - i dont care. If you hit my rear wheel, I'm not going down - YOU ARE!

spoke

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by spokewench

Yeah, that's my thought, I'm Stronger! So go ahead and draft - i dont care. If you hit my rear wheel, I'm not going down - YOU ARE! spoke

---

I know there are others out there who agree with you, too. I remember my first big organized ride. I had heard about the etiquette of asking permission, and I dutifully asked each person I wanted to draft. I got every response from total indifference (silence...no response) to "Sure, of course!" to "You don't need to ask...I couldn't care less."

I guess for me it kinda depends. On an organized ride, I really don't care (and I am slow enough that it hardly happens...so I'm sure that's part of it! :) ).

But, on roads and paved trails, if there aren't lots of cyclists around, and someone just eases up on me and follows somewhat closely a long time without saying anything, it kinda gets to me. Kinda like having a stranger on a less-than-crowded street just slip in behind and follow me. Just feels creepy. On the bike, especially if it is a guy, I usually pull over and let him go by.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Starfish

But, on roads and paved trails, if there aren't lots of cyclists around, and someone just eases up on me and follows somewhat closely a long time without saying anything, it kinda gets to me. Kinda like having a stranger on a less-than-crowded street just slip in behind and follow me. Just feels creepy. On the bike, especially if it is a guy, I usually pull over and let him go by.

---

Yes, that's how I feel. I think it's good to remember that not all cyclists ride in organized packs and clubs where drafting is taken for granted. Many of us are independent bicyclists who never ride in cycling clubs, and do not see ourselves so much as members of 'the sport'.
I am not antisocial, but if i am out riding alone then I am riding alone. I don't want some silent stranger following me. ((shudder)) Most of my rides have at least some portions that are rural and not highly populated. It would be pretty stupid for me to ride down a wooded back road while some strange man was tailing me on his bike.
At the very least I would want you to introduce yourself in a friendly way and ask to ride along for a while and chat (I still will be naturally wary though).
No stealth shadow riders for this girl.

I don't feel comfortable with anyone drafting me. On occasion, I have been having a fast day when I am out with my husband. Usually, a guy will come up behind me and just stay there. They never say anything. In some cases they pass me, but sometimes it's a slower guy that just can't stand that a woman is ahead. Eventually, they drop back. I don't like it at all.
At times my husband wants me to "pull." I hate it. I just feel like he is going to crash into me being that close. I know he won't, but I can't stand it for more than 15 minutes.
The only people I will get sort of close behind are my husband or the couple who are our regular riding partners. I can predict what they will do. Oh, and Denise G., who I have ridden with several times.

"You enjoying the view back there?" (This has embarrassed a few folks enough to get off my butt)

I felt bad one day when I was leap-frogging some dude on my usual commute route, but to my credit: I was doing intervals! So he'd pass me calmly, and then like a minute later I'd zip by like a bank robbery gone bad. Then he'd catch up and pass me again... he must have thought I was insane! :o

-- gnat!

I agree with Spokewench in theory, however there's no way my ride is going to be the same if there is someone behind me that crashes because they hit my rear wheel. Being at the front gives me lots of responsibilities, and I am not always willing to assume those responsibilities. If I'm riding casually, it's one thing. If I'm training and going at high speed/high effort (as mentioned by the original poster), it's another story.

In Montreal on the F1 Grand Prix course road cyclists tend to get together on summer evenings and ride in very fast pacelines together (30 mph, sometimes more). It's relatively flat, but there are some sharp turns and some inclines that can bring cyclists to stand up, or pedals to hit the pavement, with catastrophic effects for all involved. One night when I was there there was a crash and one cyclist died at the scene. Not a nice way to finish an evening.

When I went there to train, and joined the pacelines, I knew that it was dangerous (and exhilarating!). I trusted some people but certainly not everyone, and especially not strangers. It worked the other way around: I would not have tried to join a paceline with people I didn't know. If someone I did not want in my paceline joined us, and we couldn't get rid of him/her (usually him) (at that kind of pace, there are no kind words or gentle educational methods, just orders barked over shoulders in heavy wind), I'd just peel off and finish the workout on my own.

I feel the same when I'm training on the open road, although of course the risk is much less if there are only two - not twenty - people involved.

I also agree with Lisa's point of view regarding possibly creepy strangers. Not everyone wants to have company on the road, especially not company that requires attention (signals etc. are attention).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tulip

Don't forget that when you're the passer, please SAY SOMETHING to let the passee know you're there. Otherwise the passee might swerve around a pothole or something and not know you're there and wham, down you both go.

---

Amen to that!! So often do people neglect to say "On your left" or something similar when they are passing. Inconsiderate cyclists make me eversogrouchy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MM_QFC!

I know that it's the person in the rear who would go down, if tires touched...

---

That's how I got to ride in a Life Flight helicopter, although I don't remember it...:(

The only person I draft off us is DH. He is a very strong and fast rider and really, its the only way I can keep up with him. We typically pick up a lot of riders on group rides, mostly guys, and the only time it bothers me is when they try to cut my wheel to get right behind him. I don't leave any space for them to cut in, they simply drift to the right to push me over. This happens so often that I finally convinced DH that we need matching Jerseys so people realize we are together. He has no clue this is happening while he is up front and it wasn't until last years double century that we did with a friend and our friend (who rode behind me the whole time) mentioned the problem to him that he realized it was an issue. (I am drifting now, not drafting.....)

When I am alone I don't draft off of strangers and it really doesn't bother me if they catch my wheel for a while. The only time it every bothered me was when this huge guy got on my wheel and was pounding massive gears to keep up. I figured if he hit my wheel we were both going down.

Anyhow, I think Blondiebiker's original post had more to do with how close is too close. I would say stay two to three bike lengths back if you are pacing (going the same speed as the other rider), thats just my two cents though and it sounds like some might still be uncomfortable with that distance.

This thread is making me think that everyone should get in some good paceline practice.

Obviously it's easier to learn when you're young and full o' beans. And it may be harder for slower riders to find a group of people who want to ride paceline.

But the basic skills are ones that every rider should work on periodically. Maintaining a consistent speed; holding your line; signaling hazards both verbally and with hand signals; bike-handling skills and reflexes; group manners; listening to one's own body to know when to hand off the pull. Whether one normally rides alone or with others, it's important to have all these skills for traffic situations, and sympathetic pacelines of riders of similar abilities are one really good place to develop the skills.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OakLeaf

This thread is making me think that everyone should get in some good paceline practice....

Whether one normally rides alone or with others, it's important to have all these skills for traffic situations, and sympathetic pacelines of riders of similar abilities are one really good place to develop the skills.

---

I have developed some very good traffic and safety riding skills while riding with my husband, with occasional friends, and alone. I have absolutely no desire to ride in pacelines, whether for 'practice' or any other reason. ;)

But it's good idea for people who like to ride bicycles like that.

Even if you don't "plan" to ride in pacelines, it's still a great idea from a bike handling perspective to know how to do it, and how to ride safely in a group.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by maillotpois

Even if you don't "plan" to ride in pacelines, it's still a great idea from a bike handling perspective to know how to do it, and how to ride safely in a group.

---

One can develop very safe 'group riding' skills without developing safe 'paceline riding' skills. They are not the same thing, though they may have many aspects in common. It's totally ok if you think it's a 'great idea' for everyone to practice paceline skills. I feel differently and will work on the skills I feel are relevant to my biking and beneficial to me personally. :)

I know they're not the same skills (that's why I used the "and" ;) ). They do complement each other and we teach both to our riders for safety purposes more than anything. But if it's not for you, it's not for you. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by spokewench

I've been watching this thread for quite a while and I'm sorry, but I just don't really get it. Drafting is a part of this sport - I will usually say hi to someone that I am going the same speed as when I'm out on a ride or event, because I'm a fairly friendly person, but someone drafting on my back wheel JUST DOES NOT BOTHER ME! I

---

Spoke, I'm right there with you.

My triathlon coach had us do a paceline workout last year. I never knew how potentially dangerous it was. I prefer more space as I'm not a really strong rider, but in reading this thread I'm glad she had us do it.

Well, I understand why someone would say everyone should practice paceline skills, but like Lisa, there's no way I want to do that. I ride in groups, but it's not paceline riding. Most of the people have good skills, but one group I ride with, many don't. I know who to stay away from. The rides my husband and I lead are more social. I am strict about "single file," calling out, and signaling. If someone doesn't like it, then they don't need to come on my rides!
Last year SheFly asked me to come to her club's paceline clinic. I am just too afraid to do that. It doesn't make me a bad rider; I am not a racer and the only one I want to draft is my husband, so we can ride together. Even then, I stay back a little.

I was thinking about this post last night and wondering why the drafting thing just didn't bother me when it seems to be an issue with so many people here. Maybe it's because there are A LOT of cyclists here and at any given time that I'm on the coast riding, chances are I will come upon another person who hangs behind me for awhile, or vice versa. I'm always looking around when I'm riding to make sure I know if there are other cyclists around me that I should be calling out hazards and signaling to. I guess I figure that there are times when I've needed a pull and I'm happy to return the favor. Another thought is that unless I know I can pass AND drop someone, I'll hang back instead of passing. This may mean I'm back there for a couple of minutes while I assess or wait for a place to safely pass.

I also agree with MP that everyone should have group riding/pacelining skills. If you ever plan to be on the road with other riders, whether it be two or two hundred during an organized event, you need to know how to handle that situation.

I enjoy pacelines and find them fun and valuable for training, but I do want to know that the other folks in the line know what they are doing. I ride in pacelines with people I know, but not with some stranger on the road because I don't know their skills. If I come up on someone, I'll either hang way back or pass them. If someone comes up on me, I'll usually ease up on my pace so that they will pass me.

Clinics are a good way to learn, but you also need to practice; one clinic won't do it. Clinics that provide follow-up practice sessions would be great, but I don't know if those are offered. Some clubs, even recreational ones, offer paceline skills rides. I think it's a valuable skill to have, but riders need to learn how to do it properly.

Thanks, Brandy.

I remember when I started riding, and our coach said we'd be working in pacelines. I was quite nervous about it. I mean, I am the most uncoordinated person I know. I was in remedial PE (that's back when they had funding for such things in public schools - it really did scar me for life and I just always assumed I would never be an athlete).

Then once I started working in groups, with proper training and guidance, I found it a wonderful thing. There is just NOTHING like working with a group of cyclists, fighting the wind, pushing your speed - or simply riding together single file chatting. I'll never forget working with one particular (non-TNT) group in a pacelining clinic (which included some contact drills on a lawn after the ride) and on the way back in one of the women commented with a big grin "So that's what its like to go fast!"

The ride we're training our people for, the Death Ride, has VERY little pacelining or traditional group riding - it is a solo event. But there's enough opportunity to ride together in training that it is critical to get those skills in place among our riders. It's a critical skill to have and I wouldn't omit it from a safety perspective. We spend some time at our first ride doing a clinic on this and then reinforce those skills throughout the season. (Which is a LOT easier now that I'm back coaching from the bike instead of the SAG car! ;) ).

Forgive my confusion and please provide me with information:

When riding with a group, I've only ever ridden in paceline-ish formations. Sometimes it would break down into smaller groups (2-4 riders) but my club (and myself as an occasional ride leader) enforced the idea of us behaving as "one vehicle" (we had yellow jerseys so a yellow school bus was suiting) :D We rode on streets with moderate traffic a lot and it really helped to keep us in ruly, organized, structured groups. When I ride with my husband we keep very close together 95% of the time as well. Or we try to...

I don't know groups/club around here that ride differently, but I have not seen that many.

As a driver, I don't mind passing a paceline, even a double one, mainly of course because I am familiar with them and know they are predictable. What unsettles me more is passing a large number of small groups of cyclists, which don't usually ride single file unfortunately.

How exactly do "social rides" as some have described above work?? How do people spread themselves on the road? What does it mean to "ride together" if everyone is riding sort of separately? I'm looking for a new club to ride with and I expect it to be more "social" so I'd like to prepare mentally.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by maillotpois

I'll never forget working with one particular (non-TNT) group in a pacelining clinic (which included some contact drills on a lawn after the ride) and on the way back in one of the women commented with a big grin "So that's what its like to go fast!"

---

That was a fun day! :)

I guess I'm the creepy guy on a bicycle. :D I've been known to turn around and catch up to folks who are out riding on our closed to vehicle traffic local road, if I'm feeling social. Last time it was a guy that I had been "talking" to on Bikeforums, but had never met before.

I guess in general I don't see other cyclists as being creepy.

V.

Sorry V, cute girls on stunning steel steeds simply cannot BE "creepy".

:p

Jo is pretty cute, isn't she. :D

V.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Grog

As a driver, I don't mind passing a paceline, even a double one, mainly of course because I am familiar with them and know they are predictable. What unsettles me more is passing a large number of small groups of cyclists, which don't usually ride single file unfortunately.

How exactly do "social rides" as some have described above work?? How do people spread themselves on the road? What does it mean to "ride together" if everyone is riding sort of separately? I'm looking for a new club to ride with and I expect it to be more "social" so I'd like to prepare mentally.

---

Unless there are two or more lanes going in one direction, we stay single file. If we have a lane, we'll have bikes side by side. When you ride really long rides (20-100 miles) it's hard for everyone to ride together, so we more or less stay in clumps. hills are another situation where you're better off NOT close to other bikes, because one person might be grinding up the hill at 4mph and someone else at 14mph so we tend to get spaced out and then regroup from time to time.

Silly me, here I thought that riding single file was pacelining without the intent of drafting.

I also don't plan on driving donuts on icy roads, but I took a class to learn what to do just in case I found myself in an unplanned whirl.

I have definitely had creepy guys follow me on a bicycle. Multiple times, I've also been followed dangerously by cars, including one for 100 miles down I-5 back before there were towns and highway patrol cars at frequent intervals. I've had way too many encounters with guys that don't know how to respect personal space to let anyone follow without some kind of evaluation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mimitabby

hills are another situation where you're better off NOT close to other bikes, because one person might be grinding up the hill at 4mph and someone else at 14mph so we tend to get spaced out and then regroup from time to time.

---

But if you can climb at the same pace as someone else and can trust their skills to ride a straight line, why not climb somewhat closely? I'll let aka_kim pull me up any hill.:)

Descending spread out, but climbing with a trusted comparable rider? Why not ride fairly close?

SadieKate you answered your own question. I don't know anyone who rides my speed up hill. They are either faster or slower.

When I did Hurricane Ridge with RD, he circled me often and our riding partner met us when we got to the lodge on top.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SadieKate

Descending spreadout, but climbing with a trusted comparable rider? Why not ride fairly close?

---

For one thing, when you're climbing, even strong riders are going so slow that the advantage from drafting is minimal.

For another, flatland pacelining is a way for riders of comparable but not identical abilities to stay together; stronger riders take longer pulls, less strong riders take short ones or even peel off as soon as they reach the front. Strength and weight differences are greatly magnified once you get into the hills.

But mainly, even with only two riders, one of you may want to stand up when the other wants to stay in the saddle.

Personally I don't have the skills to micro-control my bike's front-to-back movement when I stand up, even though I'm perfectly comfortable in a flatland paceline. Other riders, who spin perfectly smoothly, get into a big side-to-side sway whenever they're standing up. There's just a whole 'nother level of bike control involved when you're standing.

With all these disadvantages, and with the advantage of drafting being so small, the groups I ride with in hilly country never stay that close together.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mimitabby

SadieKate you answered your own question. I don't know anyone who rides my speed up hill. They are either faster or slower.

---

I wasn't really asking a question. I was wondering why you appeared to be making a global recommendation that everyone spread out when climbing a hill.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OakLeaf

For one thing, when you're climbing, even strong riders are going so slow that the advantage from drafting is minimal.

For another, flatland pacelining is a way for riders of comparable but not identical abilities to stay together; stronger riders take longer pulls, less strong riders take short ones or even peel off as soon as they reach the front. Strength and weight differences are greatly magnified once you get into the hills.

But mainly, even with only two riders, one of you may want to stand up when the other wants to stay in the saddle.

Personally I don't have the skills to micro-control my bike's front-to-back movement when I stand up, even though I'm perfectly comfortable in a flatland paceline. Other riders, who spin perfectly smoothly, get into a big side-to-side sway whenever they're standing up. There's just a whole 'nother level of bike control involved when you're standing.

With all these disadvantages, and with the advantage of drafting being so small, the groups I ride with in hilly country never stay that close together.

---

When climbing it's definitely more pacing than drafting, but that can be very beneficial.

If I'm climbing with someone and I want to stand, I signal that I will be standing and shift to a harder gear which makes the transition smoother. riding with my boyfriend (vireo) I can anticipate when he is going to stand, simply by paying attention to the pitches on the hill.

Oakleaf, I know there is no drafting advantage to following closely on a climb but there sure is a mental boost and the companionship of shared misery.

Generally, people don't stand in pacelines. Do it at the back.

And if you're climbing closely with someone and need to stand, just call it out beforehand. It's a good idea to be climbing spaced a little bit apart so that the kickback of standing won't cause contact but you can still be close enough to gossip.

When I paced one of the women I coached up the climbs at Death Ride last year, it was really fun to work on that control when standing - not letting the bike move back at all. I agree it's not something for everyone, so when climbing/pacing if you don't have that control or are not completely comfortable with the person ahead, then give yourself half a wheel or a wheel length behind.

Even if the paces in climbing are not the same (which they were not on that particular ride), it is a great challenge for the lead rider to keep a pace the other can comfortably follow. You have to really be aware of the other rider's pace, how they show weakness and tiredness. Brandy's right, they're not drafting. But you're setting a smooth consistent pace that they might not quite be able to set on their own. (A little like how the support riders pace their leaders on climbs in the races. But MUCH slower. :p ).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SadieKate

Oakleaf, I know there is no drafting advantage to following closely on a climb but there sure is a mental boost and the companionship of shared misery.

Generally, people don't stand in pacelines. Do it at the back.

And if you're climbing closely with someone and need to stand, just call it out beforehand. It's a good idea to be climbing spaced a little bit apart so that the kickback of standing won't cause contact but you can still be close enough to gossip.

---

Or drop the "f-bomb" repeatedly. :eek:On the Eastern Sierra Double last year I was riding with a girl and her fiancee and he actually dropped us because our language got so colorful on one particular climb. :p

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SadieKate

It's a good idea to be climbing spaced a little bit apart so that the kickback of standing won't cause contact but you can still be close enough to gossip.

---

I think this is fine, just as long as you are not talking about me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SadieKate

...but you can still be close enough to gossip.

---

or whine together!:p

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by maillotpois

Even if the paces in climbing are not the same (which they were not on that particular ride), it is a great challenge for the lead rider to keep a pace the other can comfortably follow. You have to really be aware of the other rider's pace, how they show weakness and tiredness.

---

I use this as one of my indicators for conditioning and bike handling skills. When I can pace a slower rider up a hill, I know my own fitness and skills are doing well.

In other words, I don't HAVE to find my own pace to survive the hill.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by maillotpois

I think this is fine, just as long as you are not talking about me.

---

Oh, well, then . . . . . . . .:D

Is it okay as long as we don't use Brandy's f-bomb?