DS#2 brought this to my attention as soon as he saw it on a local news site a few minutes ago...
Checked the Eurosport site first and then came over here...
Gutted, just gutted...
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DS#2 brought this to my attention as soon as he saw it on a local news site a few minutes ago...
Checked the Eurosport site first and then came over here...
Gutted, just gutted...
So, has any french rider ever tested positive when tested by this lab?
Karen in Boise
Considering the heavy stakes, I can't imagine a lab whose integrity wouldn't be questioned after its results were used to accuse riders of doping.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalidurga
Of course the lab has had cases with Americans: they've been winning. Back-of-the-peloton French riders don't get tested as often because they don't win very often.
I love Contador, too, but remember he was already implicated in the Operacion Puerto scandal. I have no illusions that any of them are clean.Quote:
Don't think about Vino - think about the guys like Alberto Contador and how awesome he is....and hopefully clean and honest!
Recall that Vino will be the first rider to test positive under that new charter they made everyone sign before they could ride in the Tour. Under that agreement, he will forfeit his 2007 salary for a positive test.
Here is a question... why was the entire team asked to leave? If the rule is that the entire team goes from one positive, then why didn't all of T-Mobile get asked to leave when Sinkewitz tested positive?
Trish
The idea of it being a "mix up" is totally ...bull$hit.
HE NEVER SHOULD HAVE LET SOMEONE PUT A NEEDLE IN HIS ARM WITH A BAG OF BLOOD ON THE OTHER END!!!!!!! That in itself would show he knowingly participated.
Rasmussen is in the middle of controversy with a shoe box, and there was talk that Contador was tied to Operation Puerto. At this point, the only one I believe to be clean is Bob Roll!!Quote:
Originally Posted by amymisk
The Sinkewitz positive was not during the TDF, it was just announced during the TDF. Plus, he had already pulled out of the TDF because of a crash by the time the announcement was made.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darby361
I've read a couple of reports that indicate that the team has not pulled out of the race. Also that the police have raided their hotel.
Who knows, but it is a disappointing development all around.
Having met him, I wouldn't exactly describe him as "clean" in any sense of the word... :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by *Mg*
Fuentes himself stated that he had never treated Contador and Contador has been formally cleared.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?...n07/jan15news2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operaci...to_doping_case
From what I have also read, his name was never found in the records but I can't find this article right now.
I'm so disapointed :( I was cheering him on last night and was so happy that he came back after his injuries... oh well so much for that :mad:
This was my first thought, too! I guess, like most of you, I'm not too surprised that there is yet another doping scandel. I wondered out loud to my boss and my SO regarding Vino's suddenly *found* energy... but hoped against hope that it would not be true!Quote:
Originally Posted by BikeMomma
I'm thinking (as is my SO) that maybe the only ones not doping are the ones not winning! Please please please let George not be!
On another cycling forum (French language) I visit, a Paris guy posted this message. I'm quickly translating:
"For the moment in France it's boiling big bubbles but we know little. Most of the cyclists here know very well that 98% of the racers dope and that those who are caught, it's because of the "soigneur"'s [team "nurse"] error. For us who have been in the cycling milieu for years (my great-uncle was a bike constructor and had a pro team), WE KNOW. Whatever the commentators say, we're not dupes. The dope in European cycling is at all levels, even in village crits where the price is a bunch of groceries from local shopkeepers, there are lots of them everywhere at the beginning and end of the season.
There is also doping in Sunday morning rides, to follow a group of younger guys who ride faster and further...
One must remember the heads of racers getting at the top of the "cols" (passes) thirty years ago, looking like agonizing old men, whereas today the champions climb with their mouth closed (they breathe through their ears maybe?)."
I've heard that the human body just can't take that kind of punishment day in and day out without doping. I mean, think about the longest ride you took and how you felt spent. You needed a rest day between right? How is it then that these boys can ride 100 miles some days back to back and recover quickly without some kind of drug?
The news about Vino is maddening! I know many of these guys find ways around the rules and dope in all sorts of ways, but I still hold out hope that someday they'll be clean. I certainly wasn't surprised by the news - between the time trial and yesterday's stage - there really wasn't any other explanation. Sad, but true. It's so disheartening to think of these guys sitting there knowingly having someone else's blood pumped into their veins... just to have a good day in the race. Blech! :mad:
Let's just keep hoping that Contador and others are clean and enjoy the rest of the Tour. There are still gifted cyclists out there. I may be naive, but I do believe that.
The ironic part of this is the fact that Vino was one of the first to sign the agreement before the tour! And on top of that, in the agreement it states that along with a two year suspension, they also have to pay their entire (for the year)salary to the anti doping agency. So tell me, what do they gain if they are found guilty???
I was shocked when my DH told me this news today. I was pulling so hard for Vino in the TT and then again yesterday. I did mention to DH yesterday, though, that his comeback after a terrible day reminded me an awful lot of Floyd last year, and I even said "I sure hope they don't find out he's doping".
Sheesh....I am really sick of this. It's sad and disappointing to see our heros fall, one by one. :( :mad:
Emily
I hate to condemn all cycling athletes because of a few cheaters. Just like not everyone on the street I deal with is a criminal. It is flawed to think like that. If you read several articles about Operation Puerto, you will see that the investigators rushed to conclusions about riders possibly involved in it. Contador was one of the riders the investigations committee said they rushed to judgement and cleared him. Does that mean he is not doping, no. Does that mean he is doping, no. Think and say what you want because that is just my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by xeney
Any molecular biologists out there? I was just thinking about the flow cytometry test and with the way it is done I was wondering if a high white count or the presence of antibiotics could yield a false positive. I have heard that Vinokurov's knee is infected.
Some of us (well, one for sure) were doing other stuff today, I only had one chance to use a computer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalidurga
It is unimaginable how they can do this day after day. They did it in 1903 without doping, if a rider has any moral standards and a true love of the sport for sports sake they wouldn't do it. I just don't get it, they're not exactly making pro football salaries.
I am absolutely and irrevocably disgusted...
Yeah, I know doping is far and wide. What gets me most is the arrogance and deceit. To sign an agreement to cycle clean knowing you're not, knowing that if you place anywhere near the top you'll be tested and randomly if you're in "the field"... I'm really pissed.
I'm thinking of following a new sport. What're the chances that shuffleboarders or croquet players dope?
It will be really interesting to hear the 4 muskateers take on this come 3:30 am (6:30 ET)... I'm imagining Phil Liggett will be be spewing all sorts of UK invective (like he doesn't personally know who's doping).
spazz
I posted something awhile back (and it ticked someone off) that said "I blame the French"Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyAnika
I don't entirely blame the French on this one.
Well, I had a whole day to let the news sink in. I'm really disappointed with the scandal.
Who knows why Vinokurov did what he did. I can't second guess. Maybe when he signed the agreement about doping, his heart was in the right place. Maybe when he was shattered the other day, he panicked and doped so that he wont jepardize next year... Sad. I do feel sad for Vinokurov for his desperation to stay in the game by doping.
Yup, the temptation is just too great for some of them. Honesty and moral value is severely lacking these days...:( :( :(
Smilingcat
Gutted? Yes
Disappointed? Yes
But wait... what happened to innnocent til proven guilty
He gets a second chance in case the lab f'ed up
He's requested the second test... shouldn't the condemnations wait until that is announced positive?
(And in the meantime all wish fervently that its all just a BIG mistake)
Oh, and can anyone answer Eden's question about the possibility of an infected knee affecting his blood chemistry?
I initially thought the Astana news was a "spoiler" too, when my DH emailed me the news about Vino yesterday. Then I remembered it was a tour rest day, so there was nothing to spoil....except the tour for me, since I am/was a huge Vino fan.Quote:
Originally Posted by zencentury
:(
Emily
His positive test came after Saturday's time trial, before he blew up on Sunday....not after his win in the Pyrenees. So, if he did it, he did it before he had his really bad day.Quote:
Originally Posted by smilingcat
Emily
Alas, they did dope even at the beginning of the 20th century - alcohol and ether to dull the pain were supposedly quite popular (as were other tactics like leaving broken glass on the road to burst opponents' tyres).Quote:
Originally Posted by zencentury
It still makes me very sad - I thought that this was going to be a clean Tour.
From VeloNews's live feed from today's stage:
"News reports today suggest that the tests following Vinokourov's win on Monday also show signs of homologous blood doping. Neither positive has been confirmed by their respective B samples, but that has to be considered to be a bad sign."
"bad doping result?!?!?! Today's l'Equipe is reporting that an as-of-yet-unnamed rider has tested positive for testosterone, following last Thursday's stage to Montpellier. We have no information on who that might be, so we will not speculate. There were eight riders tested that day, in case you're wondering.
Robert Hunter (stage winner)
Michael Rasmussen (yellow jersey)
Maxim Iglinskiy
Erik Zabel
Lilian Jegou
Cristian Morini
Kim Kirchen
Patxi Vila...
The UCI
will be making an announcement later today regarding the reported testosterone positive from the 11th stage last week."
I am not sure what to make of the Vino incident. I am very disappointed but believe his results shouldn't have been leaked but that is how the doping tests go.
This is a pretty funny quote from him though (from Cyclingnews.com):
Vinokourov did manage a joke about his situation. "I heard that I made a transfusion with my father's blood," Vinokourov said. "That's absurd, I can tell you that with his blood, I would have tested positive for vodka
I saw that quote at cyclingnews, too. It's frustrating in that he's denying it, but also saying "...I don't want to waste time in proving my innocence." Obviously, nothing is definitive until the B sample comes back (and possibly not even then), but this is beginning to sound like Ullrich's situation (I've never doped, but no, I won't provide anything that would help to prove my innocence). Time to take a deep breath, then sit back and just wait for the B sample and Vino's response, if any, to that.
I don't have cable or any of that and so when I visited my sister, who does have cable, I got to watch Vino do amazingly well on the time trial,especially after the hard times he has had for this tour. I thought it was great and then I read this morning about the positive test and was disheartened. Granted, we have a second sample to wait for, but even still, these guys should know better.It hurts me to see such great talent be based on something false.
But, with all of what's going on, I still love the sport and probably always will. I love watching it, reading it, and doing it. Maybe the sport needs to hit the lows to get the ones who are true to it and to change and to find those who have the talent to ride without needing to cheat, maybe not. I don't have the answers and I can't solve the problem, but I know I can try to help. I know that I will support those who promote a good, clean sport and work hard for the win instead of cheating.
Yeah - I have a history of the tour - It's NEVER been a "clean" tour. Drugs and other methods of cheating have been there since the beginning. The original organizer threatened to cancel it forever many times over the problems. Amphetemines were the drug of choice many years ago. Even the great Eddy Merkx had a suspension over amphetamine use! And think about what would happen today if anyone won all three jerseys (as Eddy did) - no one would believe it was a clean win, no matter how much testing proved it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bron
Watching the end today (no I won't spoil it) I had to wonder "Is HE clean??" All I can do is pray that my boy Levi is playing by the rules. I really believe he is, but these guys are cracking my trust.. sigh..
Yeah, I felt like crying yesterday too. And I'm not even really a Vino fan. Just the whole mess!
It's Cristian Moreni of the Confidis team. The team is being allowed to stay.Quote:
Originally Posted by IFjane
Here's the story: http://www.velonews.com/tour2007/new...s/12930.0.html
He's denying his right to a B-sample, so that's as good as an admission. :rolleyes:
~BikeMomma
Boonen is p.o.'ed
Show me a description of the test and I'll try and find out. I am a molecular biologist but have not seen articles on the method.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eden
a) in 1903 they already knew how to use alcohol, cocaine, even strychnine.Quote:
Originally Posted by zencentury
b) because they are not making enough money in a couple years to retire for the rest of their lives, they are desperate for wins.
Yeah it ticks me off too. Yes the lab screws up, others do too, but come effin' on.... JUST because he was an American? V is Kazakh, Chicken is danish, and Contador is spanish. So frame them all so a French guy can win....?Quote:
Originally Posted by zencentury
Doping is in this sport like a cancer and it has been for the past 100 years.....
Edit.
I checked out the method.
So the antibodies are specific for red blood cells. white blood cells due to infection would not skew the result and frankly, if his infection was that strong, he would not be winning time trials. Same for Antibiotics. They don't react with the antibodies in question.Quote:
Briefly, the test uses a panel of antibodies against many (>10) red blood cell (RBC) antigens. When any of these antibodies reacts with the RBC antigens ..... the idea is that the presence of the RBC antigens varies in any population of humans and thus a homologous transfusion can be detected in a person receiving one unit of blood
Could V claim chimaerism like Tyler H.? Apparently, one out of 8000 normal people and 8% of twins are chimeric. But this is something that every rider could have been tested for on his own free will after the H. case.
WOW... that article with Boonen is something else... he throws down Rasmussen as well... said he believes Rasmussen is doped too...
yeah, Boonen's quotes are BEYOND PO'd...