Some people move their saddles forward and up if they are going to use their road bikes for TT's. I never wanted to mess with my saddle height in case I got it back wrong for road racing, so that's one good reason for the dedicated TT bike.
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Some people move their saddles forward and up if they are going to use their road bikes for TT's. I never wanted to mess with my saddle height in case I got it back wrong for road racing, so that's one good reason for the dedicated TT bike.
Hi hellosunshine,
48kilos and 5' 5"... Sounds like you need to put some weight on. Even for a hill climibing specialist, you need more body mass. I've heard number around 2lbs (approx. 1kilo) per one inch of your height. so at 5' 5", you should weigh in around 59kilos? Well I'm sure that rule of thumb needs to be adjusted for women.
and I need to lose about 10 kilos. :( :mad: not that I race. It's just because...
I hated interval training and still hates it. I prefer the rest day :D
Shawn
Another fine rule of thumb is 5 lbs per inch above 5 feet (or 6 lbs for men).
It corresponds to a BMI of about 21-23 I think.
A climber would want to be a tiny bit below that, but not much.
CK... if you are interested in TTs you should def get a TT bike...
I mean, if you were interested in playing basketball, would you go play only in your golf shoes because they were the only sports shoes you had? 'Course not...
Having a TT specific bike means that you dont have to mess with the position of your bars or seat - and a big part of doing a TT is being able to output power in the most aero position you can... and that can be tough and uncomfortable to train your body to.
You don't have to spend heaps on a bike to make it your TT bike. We bought a nice Giant TCR Aero 2 on sale for $NZ1500 - thats been the biggest expense. It came with aero bars attached, but I wanted bull horns not drops, so we have picked up from TradeMe (our equivalent of EBay) bull horns for about $20 and redid the front end... we bought an extra long carbon seat post for about $10... I borrow my sons front wheel which has a deep rim...
With my next TT some time away, my partner has just swapped my stem post out for a shorter one... it drops my front end nearly 2 cm and brings it back about 1cm... my profile is much more aero, but I went for a 5km spin on it yesterday and its going to take a few rides to get used to. My thighs tap up into my belly and my right shoulder was feeling the weight of me on it. However, that profile into the wind should gain me about 15 secs into the wind if I dont have to sacrifice my power output. Only time will tell.
I'll ask my daughter to take pix of my road bike and my TT bike so you can see the dif in seat/bar heights.
To choose to race TTs on a non-TT bike puts you at a distinct disadvantage if others are using TT bikes. But remember, a TT bike may make you a little faster initially, but ultimately (as Lance sayd) - its not about the bike. TTs are about shear guts and determination as you battle yourself and rise to your own challenge. Getting aero is not so much about getting fast (although that is the side effect) it is about reducing the wind resistance which is your biggest 'handicap'... even on a calm day.
As for getting faster before you deserve a TT bike - get one now... my averages for a 20km TT are around 31kph... to be up there with the top women in my club I would have to be doing 35-38kph... thats about a 75%-80% increase in my power output. Thats going to take me 2-3 years probably... Get the TT bike, it helps you focus and achieve your goals.
Kelowna, like Eden, I would not want to mess with my saddle on my road bike.
My TT bike's saddle is more forward and pointed slightly more down than my road bike - mainly because I am continuing to drop my handle bars and the leaning down nessecitates some accomodation in my seat.
These are some great tips for those of us who want to try a TT. Currently, I'm nearing the end of the school semester, so of course all the big projects are due too, so focusing on competition isn't at the top of my list. But, after the semester ends (in about 3 weeks, thank goodness) I want to give a TT a go. Here are a few questions that I have:
On a TT bike, what is the most aero position to be in (seat position, angle, etc)?
What's your starting position when starting a TT?
Reading all of this info really helps and I can't wait for the semester to end just so I can get started. Thank ya'll:)
I can't speak to how to fit a tt bike - I had mine professionally fit... but I can talk about starting.
Most TT's you start out being held by a race official. You won't get the fancy starting ramp you see in the Pro races, but someone will stand behind you holding your saddle while you are completely clipped into the bike. This is not scarey! I promise they won't drop you and you won't fall over when let go! If you feel like you aren't being held up straight do ask the person holding to move you - they will be happy to do it. You want to start out with your less dominant leg a bit above the 3o'clock position (this is because you want your stronger leg to be the one pulling over the top for the best starting acceleration). If you have aerobars DON'T try to start out in them. Start out either in your drops or out on your cowhorns if you are set up that way. There will be a second official giving you a count - they'll ususally position you at about 30 seconds to go, and the official will give you the last 5 seconds count out loud and with his hand. When they say go, you will be let go and you'll want to get moving. Most people once they are moving (a few pedal strokes) will stand and get up to speed, then get into the aero bars.
For a lot of people the idea of being held sounds frightening, but remember these officials hold up big guys who are a lot heavier than you - they won't drop you. If you can find someone to practice with a few times it helps a lot , not only to alleviate any fears, but to get the feel of how to start off nice and strong too.
Anyone seen this site?
http://www.timetrialtraining.co.uk/P...eSchedules.htm
Actually, I start with my dominant leg in about the 2 o'clock position so that my first pedal stroke is a full-power push to get me going. I think this is a personal choice, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eden
And yes, being held at the start can be intimidating. As Eden says, however, they WILL NOT drop you! Hey - they can hold DH and I both clipped in on our tandem, and that's a lot of weight ;) .
SheFly
I just looked in one of my books and indeed it says dominant foot forward. Someone else one once told me that you want your more powerful foot being the one coming over the top so that your second pedal stroke was the more powerful one, as you are not getting too much leverage out of that first push down and you are getting the momentum of that more powerful leg coming over the top. I'll have to experiment with both and see which I prefer - and which gets me started better.Quote:
Originally Posted by SheFly
Yup, this is what I do ... and I start with my dominant foot somewhere between 2 and 3 I think...Quote:
Originally Posted by Eden
Last year in my first TT and the first time I was held, I weighed 110kg... he held me straight and true and it was all right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eden
Missy, you ask "what is the most aero position to be in"... I'm afraid all we can do is give you guidelines. Look at some TT races near you or on TV and you'll see people like to get low over the handle bars. The idea with yourself and your bike is to present the smallest surface to the air that you can.
For me I do this by lowering my handlebars, they are much lower than my road bike. My seat nose is also tipped down a fraction more than my road bike for comfort (but not too much or I would slide off).
The rest becomes technique - tuck your knees in, tuck your elbows in... and equipment - get bullhorns to reduce the profile of your handlebars, an aero front wheel will make a bigger difference than a rear one etc etc.
Mostly its about having a go and seeing what you can do. I had the benefit of my partner and sons to "fit" me to my bike. You might want to do what Eden did and get professionally fitted. Well worthwhile.
Kelowna, looking forward to checking out that link... haven't got time left this morning.
Yeah, it felt a little strange the first time I ever had somebody hold me up to start a TT. It's kind of cool though becuase you get all clipped in and ready then power off the line. I stand too for the first few strokes. Oh also be sure you are in the gear you want to start in before you get to the line. My first TT I was not. I thought I was on my 52 ring to start and half way through I noticed I was on my 42. Needless to say I lost a lot of speed and time with that mistake. I also fell off the course into the gravel and lost time getting back onto the pavement. Of course it had to be a two inch drop and jump to get back on.
you time trial on pavements???????
we time trial on dual carriageways and normal roads,the start anbd finish have to be less than 1/2 a mile apart so they are ususally out/back courses or circuits.
only pavements are in built up areas,well thats us in the uk.........
Vocabulary thing I think - here pavements are not the things that pedestrians walk on :D , pavement just refers to any road surface (asphalt, chip seal, concrete)Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosunshine
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
trousers-pants
curtains-drapes
garbage-rubbish
:)
and prob off topic.xxx
:D :D :DQuote:
Originally Posted by hellosunshine
boot - trunk
crisps - chips
chips - fries
brolly - umbrella.....
(I've got my British vocab down pretty good..... )
so what if its OT.... the original post wasn't ;)
Sorry Hellosunshine, I often forget how truely global the internet community is. I should have said asphalt to be correct. Although where I live most of our trails are paved with asphalt as well. So we can ride our road bikes on them, just dodge or take out walkers. Most of the TT I do are on a road course that are laps around area parks. So I have yet to do an out and back.
saftest one ive ever done in this country is 4 times around a disuced airfield,ace,but no wind protection!
due to traffic counts invariably sunday tt's have horrid early starts,some 5am.yuk.they are never held sat am but sat pm on some roads are allowed.midweek they tend to start about 7pm after the rush hour,thing is by then im "into"other things like work,i prefer morning racing,well owt(anything)after 9am is fab
Eden, you got this in Jan, and your TTs started in Feb and i have been meaning to ask ALL year how you have found your HED disc!?Quote:
Originally Posted by Eden
I have just posted pix of my RR bike and my TT bike if you want to see the difference in front end and seat angle...Quote:
Originally Posted by RoadRaven
Near the bottom of this page:
http://forums.teamestrogen.com/showt...t=10176&page=4
I haven't done a lot of TT'ing so far this year, so I've only used the disc 3 times. The last one was very windy and I was a little concerned about being blown about with the disc (it was a pretty seriously ugly wind - enough that peple were doing over 30 mph (48.3 kph) out, but only 12 mph (19.3 kph) back and I never felt like it was going to take me off the road or anything bad like that), but it was fine. It's hard to say, since really a lot has changed besides just the rear wheel, but it may have even helped since I did better than I expected. From what I understand, in a crosswind the disc can actually act like a sail and help you go forward faster. I'm not a really strong TT'er - middle of the pack at stage races usually - but I still got omnium points for being 11th out of a few over 30 some particpants and I beat some people that I generally consider to be stronger than I am. An omnium race here is a stage race that instead of using your total time, uses a points based on top finishes (1-11 in TT's and crits, 1-14 in the road race I think) in each stage - I actually prefer a regular stage race since its easier for me to make up time in a road race than it is to get points in TT's and crits. I've got another big stage race coming up next weekend that will include a TT, so another chance to get the TT bike and the disc out. Last year I muffed the TT in this race bad, by having my rear wheel skewer come open and the rim drag on the brake for the whole TT - so I really expect to do much better this year :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by RoadRaven
One thing that I would like to try to do - the speed sensor for the computer that came on the bike is positioned for the rear wheel, so I want to try to get a magnet onto the disc - I think I'll have to try to find something very small and epoxy it on. Right now I can only get cadence, which is OK - I can pace myself with hr and cadence, but I'd like to have speed as well. I guess I could move the sensor to the front fork, but its a funky big aero fork, so it might be hard to get it to stay put.
My partner and sons say epoxy you could use, but then you have no alternative if you want to take it off.
But what he and my son do with their HEDs is use a small round flat magnet, and tape over it with black electricians tape. Its the same stuff that they use to tape over the valve to make that part of the disc aero too.
I need to read the 'ominum' bits tomorrow - I'm too tired to quite get what you are saying.
I am glad you have had some races on the disc, I have yet to ride on a disc, but I do have some deep dish wheels (Grammo Vipers) I am going to ride for the first time tomorrow
I look forward to hearing about your stage racing next weekend... spesh the TT
Considering the ridiculous expense of TT booties, and the only fractions of seconds, or maybe a few seconds, that might save (since all that air around pedals is "dirty" anyway) I am wondering about cheap alternatives...
What about socks, for example? Or does the coarseness of the wool or weave defeat the purpose of wearing them over your shoes?
What about a lycra sleeve if I messed about and fasioned one on my sewing machine?
Do you gals think its worth the effort?
Why not - I think the ones you buy are made of lycra - just sew it real small so that it fits nice and snug.Quote:
Originally Posted by RoadRaven
I think I've seen people use socks too - I have no idea if they are as effective.
Think I'll give it a go... the lycra... it'll have to wait til the study break though, am snowed under at work!
OK... This week is the week I try and make some TT booties (and mend my winter booties - plastic bags in my shoes are just NOT enough!)
But my question is about being "on the rivet" in a TT.
Watching the boys in the prologue (I LOVE this part of the TdF even though its only about 8km long) I noticed many were on the rivet... you know, sitting right forward on the nose of their seats.
Discussion with the family as we watch and its because you can potentially get more power for your push if you can sit a tad further forward.
Like a good girl I am sitting on the spin bike as I watch and TTing with them (for an hour or so of it) so I scoot forward to see how sitting on the rivet feels... and IMMEDIATELY scoot back...
There's this little matter of anatomy... we gals have a gap where guys dont, and that meant the nose of the seat felt like it was gonna go somewhere it wasn't intended. There's no way I could ride a TT for 40 minutes with that sensation!!!!
So... do gals... indeed, CAN gals... ride "on the rivet"? Do we need a special seat? Would tilting the seat down even more work? Is this a possible thing?
one thing that i find interesting about that idea of sitting more forward on the saddle for more power - if that's the case then why don't they move the saddle more forward? i really don't see the purpose in sitting on the nose of the saddle if you could just shift it forward so that you're in the same spot but sitting on the normal saddle position. anybody else wonder about that too? it seems pretty "der!" to me. lol
i think i have a very special private area because i can't sit on ANY other saddle than my Terry CrMo cutout otherwise i'm ready to scream within 5 minutes. even though this is the only comfy saddle for me, i can't even scoot forward or else that hurts like crazy. i don't know WHAT my deal is. so when i change my road bike into TT mode (i only have 1 bike), i just shove the saddle all the way forward and tilt down slightly.
Hi there Equus... you're right... it is very logical to just move the seat forward.
However, the time-trial set-up is governed by strict UCI regs. So the boys in the Tour and indeed all other UCI sanctioned races MUST have the geometry "just so" or they will not be able to race.
So, you say, Raven rides in club races, she doesn't need to have her bike geometry "just so".
Well, my partner and sons ride in BikeNZ sanctioned races - which conform to UCI. Next year I will be entering some of these races too.
Therefore, even though most of our racing (every Saturday) is at club level, and of those races only about 10-15 per year (including Thursday evenings in Summer) are Time Trials, we set up our bikes according to UCI regs so that we can ride in whatever race we wish to without having to make adjustments to our bicycles.
Rules govern seat post angle/position of the nose of the seat... hence why male racers trying to get the most power possible sit "on the rivet" in time trials, and in power efforts during road/bunch race stages. They already have their seats as far forward as they can - but they want every millimetre they can make work for them.
I have not thought about this before when watching women race - and the few dvds I have of women's racing has not shown me women sitting "on the rivet". Surely there is a trick to it?
I'm not convinced that going that forward really helps with power.
Too much of good thing isn't good. little bit of aspirin is good too much will kill you. And I wonder about what effective seat tube angle, or rather the position of the seat in reference to the BB will give you the most amount of power.
On a hill climb, if my body is pushed back a bit, I can get more power into the pedals at the top and at the bottom then if I were sitting in the regular spot. But for TT, I think I prefer to sit bit forward cause it feels like I can sustain the power output with high cadence. I guess only way to know is use a power tap and measure on a hill, flat, & TT rides.
My newest seat, jett130, has a nose that is curved downward so trying to "ride on the rivet" is less worrisome. Its like the seat is tilted down on the nose even though the seat is more or less level (slightly pointing down for me.) Mind you I don't exactly ride right on the nose even when I'm forward.
smilingcat
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoadRaven
excellent explaination. thank you :)
while on the topic of the phrase "on the rivet" - i learned where it's derived from yesterday while watching the Tour. for those who were curious as well...
"on the rivet" = back in the day when riders had leather saddles, they were anchored using rivets around the edges. some of these were placed on the nose so when riders slid forward on the saddle they were actually sitting on the rivets. hence the phrase was coined for whenever a rider is sitting forward like that. nifty! :)
Yup... on the rivet... it was a good explaination in yesterdays (or is that the day before's - confusing myself with time differences...) coverage.
I think being on the rivet is something that happens when the heat goes on in a race - like when the peloton lifts the pace, or near the end of a TT.
Gonna experiment a bit this weekend - haven't been able to get on the road this week due to weather/early sun sets.
I'd like to see if it gives me more power - remembering that, historically, much cycling technique is based on how it is for men...
Here... Cancellara's saddle from the prologue...
He has done away with the rivet altogether!
SOURCE:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2007...chopped_saddle
I finally have a bit of what I consider to be a comparison between using and not using my disc/deep wheels on the TT bike.
So this weekend was the TT championship, its really the only long one around (unless you do triathalon) at 40K - most of the stand alone TT's around here are around 10 to 12K.
My hubby and I went out and pre rode the course the day before, since it was supposed to rain hard (ended up dry!) and we didn't want any suprises. The pre-ride I used my TT bike, but had my training wheels on it (Velocity Deep V's). Now we didn't do the whole ride at TT pace, but we did a few fast sections.
What I found was that I really noticed the disc when there was a cross wind. I've always heard that its actually an asset in a crosswind - unless of course its a really strong crosswind and blows you over...., since it acts like a sail - much like when a sailboat uses a crosswind to tack and go faster - and I really do think I could feel the extra boost. Doesn't do much for you in a direct headwind, but the course was really twisty so there were few sections going directly into the wind.
So I definitely think the disc works well, though it's not the lightest wheel available, for relatively flat courses its more of an asset than a hinderence. I wouldn't use it for anything hilly - mainly because of the weight, but also because its older and an 8 speed, fine on my TT bike on the flats and small rollers, but I would want something bigger than a 21 for real climbing ;)
I'm just catching up with this thread, so forgive me for being late to the party!
I definitely sit "on the rivet" while TT'ing. I ride a Fizik Arione saddle, and have to point the nose WAY down to be able to do this, but find that it works for me to get the power that I need. Apparently, given my past couple of weeks of TT results, it works.
Eden - thanks for the description on the disc wheels. Apparently I have a new pair of Zipps coming my way (I guess I have been a good girl :D ), and I will be anxious to compare them to the Ksyriums I am using now.
SheFly
Well, I haven't really had a chance to notice how I sit... I forget to take note and just ride.
Interesting, SheFly, to hear that you do and it is possible. Now the days are getting longer, I will be able to target some serious research time into this. Some seat/nose adjustment might be in need though - don't want to do what i did on the trainer again!!! :p
Well... on the first page of this thread... I posted a list of specific training rides I tried to do and weave into a fortnightly cycle...
Well, I have long since flagged that and have begun a new schedule about a month ago (post nationals where I was inspired on the TT day and wishing desparately I could join in)
I have decided to focus only on TT training and trust it will benefit my road racing too. TTs are what I love - so why on earth was I trying to train for everything!?
My week day rides are timebound as I work full time and travel (by car most days as I have to take children into town to school) is half an hour each way...
So my week is typically...
Sunday - 30-60km medium intensity ride
Monday - 30-60 minute low intensity ride after work (recovery after the weekend)
Tuesday - 60 minute min interval workout (10-20 mins to warm up, 10 mins to cool down)
Wednesday - rest or same as Monday
Thursday - hill reps on my aero bars about 45-60 minutes (10-20 mins to warm up, 10 mins to cool down)
Being on the aero bars as I climb is key - it requires a much greater power output, and power, after all, is what TTs are about.
Friday - no ride or a gentle 10-15km with my youngest son on the flat
Saturday - race... about 45 min warm up, then 25-40km race, then 15-30min cool down
I had a TT last weekend, and I believe the specific focus is helping. Big improvements (I got second in my grade - about to post a race report...)
I am anticipating having longer rides after the 17th December as that is when I go on leave for !!!!SIX WHOLE WEEKS!!!! so I will be able to really get race fit before some of the events I want to complete in late summer/autumn.
Pssst... I got an early (REALLY early) birthday pressie from my life partner - he really spoils me
Louis Garneau aero helmet... went for a 34km "test drive" today... sweeeeet...
Can't wait to use it in a TT. It fits tight on my head and has a little ratchet at the back to tighten/loosen it.
We shifted my speedo forward on the aeros so it sits between my wrists and I can glance down without moving my head.
The tail snugs in between my shoulder blades so I can just feel it which will help ensure I keep my head in the right place and don't do the "dipping" thing which negates the use of an aero helmet at all.
Very excited, but my next TT isn't til the 14th...
I did a 10km burst over rolling hills which I did in 24:45mins in January. Today, under similar weather conditions I did it in 23:50mins. Not sure how much was the aero helmet, and how much was the psycholgy of feeling fast in a fast hat, but 55seconds over 10kms is quite a difference
:)
whatever works... :p;)Quote:
Originally Posted by RoadRaven
An aero helmet is one of the key pieces of equipment to help make you faster in a TT. I now have all the fancy-schmancy gear, but the helmet and the aero bars are the things I can point to that really made a difference (besides training ;)).
Nice bday gift for sure, and the LGs are nice - that's what I have too!
SheFly
Thanks for the smiley faces Starfish :p I hope it works... maybe its just a $300 way of making me think I'm fast ;) as well as psyching out those near me in ability... but I do still really like my fancy new hat!
SheFly, I have read so much about aero helmets, and of course the key thing is holding your head still in the best position for aerodynamics - and it seems so many people move their head about it negates any benefits. I have been working hard on keeping my head still and low into my shoulders whenever I train for, or complete, a time trial, so I hope I can "do the right thing".
My partner and some of his training partners as well as some of the LBS guys reckon a TT suit makes you faster than an aero helmet... I dunno... I think I would feel so uncomfortable in a TT suit I would slow myself down because I wouldn't be focused.
I do wear a pocketless snug jersey, and I don't wear gloves, so hopefully that gives me the second or three a TT suit might afford over 18-20kms...
7 days til I get to test my LG in a club TT... am looking forward to it!
What colour is your LG, She Fly? Mine is the silver one - it matches my TT bike beautifully
:)