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Colour me agnostic. I just don't think such things as God or gods are knowable. So we believe, or we don't. I can neither believe, nor can I completely disbelieve. Sometimes I think it would be nice to find the comfort you Believers find in your God, other times I find comfort in my own sprituality. One thing about my agnosticism is that I am always open to ideas from Believers and non-Believers alike.
This is where finding the right church helps. I think everyone has this view of folks in their Sunday fineness, sitting ramrod straight on wooden benches singing from old dusty hymnals and listening to fiery brimstone sermons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eden
Modern churches are way removed from that. My Church doesn't look like a church at all. It's a large auditorium and the seats are like any movie theater. It's nicely air conditioned in the summer. We dress casually, I usually do jeans and sometimes even shorts in the summer. The worship music is killer (rock, alternative, gospel) and there are no "sermons." Just discussions and lectures, sometimes one of the parnishioners will tell their story of how they found Christ or of their experienced doing missionary work.
Just for the experience, there is no catch, drop into a service at an community evangelical or Calvary church to see what I mean. I know my church encourages people from all walks and is very "PC" to the fact not everyone in attendance is Christian (in fact, we have an alliance with the local muslim/jewish/buddist groups. Very close to my Church is Soka University which is a solely run and funded Buddist University and their students are encouraged to check out the local churches). They assume some people are just checking it out or want to find answers or are looking and searching for something else. Not everyone is Christian who goes to Church and not everyone who calls themselves Christian and attends church is a Christian. Only God knows whats in our hearts.
Interestingly enough I was just crusing around a local bike forum and someone was asking about whether or not they could do the STP (Seattle to Portland classic) on Friday and Saturday because they have a religious commitment on Sunday.
ive deepest respect for people that really feel this force of spirituality,im not trying to be bloody minded but i stopped going to church as soon as my parents let me off the hook,is it a dying phenomenon?what is the average age of church goers?and do people tend to do more for charity these days which is prob worth a lotta weight in the great scheme of things,and almost like a religion,if you see what i mean.......
Years ago, I attended Temple during the High Holy Days with my then-BF. It was a progressive/reformist rabbi (a woman) and one of the topics for discussion was whether to continue services (it was at the Beverly Hills Hotel ballroom) when hotel workers may stage a strike outside for better wages.Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosunshine
She told this story:
A rabbi was on his way to Temple one day, and heard a baby crying. Looking into a window, he saw an unattend babe. He went in, and held the baby until it stopped crying and went to sleep. Meanwhile, all the townspeople were at the synagogue waiting for him. He never showed. After a while, they became upset and went frantically in search of him, wondering what happened. When they finally found him, sitting with a sleeping baby, they became angry at him for causing them to miss their services over such an insignificant event. He looked at them and said, "This child was in need and I came to help. Have you learned nothing from me? The acts of God and more important than the Words of God."
After the rabbi told the story, she explained that regardless of where one stood on the proposed strike, it was important to acknowledge the struggles of people fighting for a better life for themselvs and their families. And as Jews, they should all recognize that.
With that, she announced that should the strike happen, she would not cross the picket lines. She said, "If we have to, we'll pray on the beach in front of the ocean. It doesn't matter what building is above our heads, God can hear us. But always, Acts of Godliness are paramount."
I still remember that after all these years.
BTW, The strike was settled, and averted.
I find this discussion fascinating. I notice not too many non-Christian religions speaking up, so even though I already said something, I will open up my big mouth. Most American Jews are not religious or observant. I would say that I'm religious, but not observant. My temple is consiously independent, i.e. is not formally associated with one of the 3 major branches of Judaism. This is a financial burden, but we like it this way. No one can tell us how to think! Our rabbi, who has been with the congregation 30 years, started as a lay leader. he was a psychologist first, and then at great personal expense, commuted to NYC to go to school and become ordained. What I like about Judaism is that a congregation doesn't need a rabbi to be a congregation.
I was raised totally unreligiously, in a predominantly Jewish suburb. I learned what I could from my friends and my boyfriend's family in particular. I always joke that my family likes to think they came over on the Mayflower... I got more religiously active when I moved to a place where I was more of a minority. When it came time to raise my kids, we decided that we would not be hypocrites, so instead of just sending the kids to a JCC preschool, we became active there and more observant. It was wonderful and it continued through their school years. They both had Bar Mitzvahs and went through to confirmation in 10th grade. I know it's "in there." My son in the Marines has put up with a lot of crap for his religion, but he gives it right back. He goes to services pretty frequently and I am proud of him for this. My other son has a serious girlfriend who isn't Jewish and is introducing her to aspects of the religion. It's interesting to see how he is dealing with this.
Well, just my .02. I don't want to change my religion, but right now I'd rather be on my bike than at services or volunteering.
Its interesting my folks live in Mississippi. My dad attends a very old methodist church. Very traditional. I would say the average age is 65 - 70 and the congregation is dying.Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosunshine
My Church has a huge youth ministry. The average adult age I would say is 35 - 40. It's a very young church. Where I live (Southern California) many churches are active youth ministries. It's become very popular here to be Christian. CHruch have made it a point to approach services with a youthful viewpoint. Look at the worship music. Downright Rock or Alternative!
Here in Orange County we have several mega churches - Rick Warren's SAddleback is one and my church - COast Hills is another. Churches are growing not slowing, at least here where I live.
Well, since cycling is one of my religions... then as far as I'm concerned a Sunday ride counts as a sacrament. :p
I am a consistent church-goer. I, like Pam, attend a non-denominational Christian church. I, like many of you, grew up Catholic, but was drawn to the message of my church: that God loved me and wanted to be close to me; that he had dreams and plans for me that he wanted to make real in my life. I didn't feel condemned for the mess I had made of my life, either. I found my Catholic church to be rather rigid and impersonal, but in hindsight, I wonder if I had been willing to become more involved, if I might have felt differently.
In any case, I love God, but in many ways I don't understand him. I went through a time in the last year where I was very frustrated with the "Christian-ese" answers to the hard questions of life. A few months back I was in a meeting with a guy from a church in So. California who was a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist. This guy could take the most complex idea and make it like crystal. We were discussing what are some of the major turn-offs for people regarding church, and one of them was patness, or the idea of having a bunch of pat answers for everything. He said, "God puts a premium on mystery. It's okay not to understand him. We've got to become comfortable with that idea." That was a watershed moment for me. I felt free to be comfortable with not understanding the whys and wherefores of everything.
So, that's where I'm at on my personal spiritual journey. Faith seeking understanding. I believe, but I don't get it all yet. It's a good place and I'm having fun seeking. :)
I've felt the same kind of awe and humility in breathtaking natural surroundings. And I think we can appreciate natural beauty and nature's remarkable workings without always and only ascribing them to a mystical creator. The world is wondrous in itself--the way two rudimentary cells can combine and change to make a sentient being, the way life forms have developed to fill every possible niche in nature, the way tides ebb and flow, seasons change (or don't change, depending on where you live)--I could go on and on. I've written briefly about this wonder on my blog, if you care to read it:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisa S.H.
On Wonder--It Is What It Is
We all see different things in nature, but we should try to realize that most of what we see depends on what we've been taught to see.
"I'd rather be climbing a mountain thinking about God than sitting in a church thinking about climbing a mountain"
I saw that on a hiking forum and I really liked it. For the sake of this forum we can replace "climbing a mountain" with "riding my bike" (unless of course you like to climb mountains on your bike . . .).
I'm not religious myself, I'm more with the spiritual nature-loving crowd. I like to be outdoors to experience the connectedness of living things with nature.
My family stopped going to church (Calvin Presbyterian) when I was very young. Mom was at some kind of a social thing, a tea perhaps, when, as she put it "one of the good church ladies" made a remark about the church allowing "those people" in. "Those people" were African Americans. Mom left, and announced we would never be back.
I love that, and it is so true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluetree
I never went to church, but was always taught the correct way to treat other people, and to see the spirituality in the world around us. However, my hometown is extremely religious (14 square miles, over 20 churches in that area, maybe more than 30). If you didn't go to the correct church, many parent's wouldn't allow their kids to have anything to do with you. Their whole lives revolved around church and church functions. This made it very difficult growing up, going to parties, going shopping or to the movies, dating, and even discussions at lunch. This still puts a negative light on organized religion for me. I know it's not like that in other areas, but it, and my always questioning nature, makes it hard for me to have any desire to participate in church activities. I know it is a huge part of life for many people, and I'll always respect it, as long as they respect me for who I am and what I believe.
(eh, I hope this all came out right, and makes some element of sense)
Quote:
Originally Posted by btchance
Nothing wrong with a questioning nature in church, imho. If there's something wrong with it, then I need to get out, I guess. ;)
All kidding aside, I do respect everyone's right to believe what they believe. Who the heck am I to think I can tell someone else what to think? All I know is that God (not church) kept me from killing myself, andthe good people in that church who loved me, just as I was, helped a lot.
I go to church almost every Sunday morning and evenings as well. Plus the mid week service on Thursday. I have gone to church all my life. I go not because I feel that I have to out of some religous duty but because I want to.
When I do ride on Sunday it is usually between services, or I will plan my rest days for Sunday and Thursday. We actually have a small group along with a race team at my church so we get in our road time it just isn't usually on Sunday. In fact my pastor is one of the biggest hammerheads I know, he does quite well in the races we do, for him 12+ races in a season is average. I'm still new so I don't race as often as the others. Usually we race on Saturday only but about two to three times a year we will all go to a sunday race or TT. We also host our own charity rides and one day tours.
Besides everytime I have missed church to ride my bike I have got into an accident, mostly small over the handle bar stuff, but still.
Wow! Then it's probably better you don't loose faith!!! :eek: :DQuote:
Originally Posted by CR400
Interesting topic indeed. I'm with Robyn, well indirectly anyway.
I was raised Jewish in central Illinois, so even though I was part of a thriving synogogue in town, I remember always being the only Jewish kid in the class, and almost yearly being asked to do a little talk on the Jewish holidays & customs. As a kid, I felt at once honored but also a bit burdened by this. Now I am thankful the teachers wanted me to share.
I have always felt more spiritual outside among natural settings and in truth do most of my deep thinking/praying there, but I do think the community of a religion has a purpose and as I'm getting older, I've come to appreciate that a bit more.
One of the things I love about Judaism, at least the way I interact with it, is kind of like what Robyn said - I have to think my own way through the journey. The temple I go to is not affiliated formally, having people from the 'big 3' backgrounds, and a reconstructionist bent.
My dad was Catholic growing up (I mean his childhood, not mine). I think he found more of a home in Judaism though and was/is active in my hometown congregation and I think of him as Jewish in practice if not in name... My husband is Catholic, and from an observant and religious family. They have always been very welcoming and when Christmas falls during Hanukkah, as it often has these last several years, we observe both, even at their home.
Most of my angst about formal religion comes from the ways I see it used to divide and make one group feel superior to others, or worse... I just don't get that and never will. But in the grand scheme of things I still think and hope, that is the exception & not the norm of religious institutions. After all, they too evolve...
That's one of the reasons I'm Episcopalian. We actually encourage people to think about their faith,(I think 3/4 of out folks started out as something else, myself included) and I like that we have all of God's people, and not just all of god white-middle class people. If you're still religious, but got turned off, find a different tent, so to speak. I think there is a reason for so many different religious expressions.Quote:
Originally Posted by btchance
Bicycle related content : Our Rector points out that I'm the only parishioner who gets covered parking :)
YOU GUYS ARE ALL WONDERFUL!!
:) :eek: :rolleyes: :D :o :p :rolleyes: :) :D :o
I cannot believe this conversation is happening. I was holding my breath on page one. Sheesh. Let it flow.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredwina
As I read these responses, it makes me sad to think that people's freedom of thought has been, or at least it is perceived as so, repressed in the church. I think if you read the words of Jesus, you will find that that's not what he was about.
True. I always wonder how people Reconcile the "Meek and Mild" Jesus with one who overturns table at the temple.Quote:
Originally Posted by slinkedog
***sigh***
Yes, not only that, he believed that you should pay your taxes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluetree
:D :D :D :D
Our constitution was based off of Christian beliefs (not denomonation specific), so it really isn't, or in my opinion, shouldn't be a surprise that religion is incorporated into our politics. What frightens me is that we're now trying to eliminate it. There's a saying I remember from my college days: "Stand for something or you'll fall for anything". I think there's a whole generation of people who don't believe in anything and are focusing more on material and selfish matters struggling to find their place/purpose in this world. Call it God/Christ/Allah/Buddha/Spiritualism, etc. but I do feel that's missing from our culture these days. Just my rambling thoughts, hope I don't offend.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluetree
Pam, I would LOVE to go to Rick Warren's church! I think he's a great speaker. Have you ever gone there?
There is a reason the founding fathers placed the Establishment Clause in the Constitution. They had seen first hand the difficulties caused by too much of an entanglement between government and religion. Religion and government have their proper spheres. Too much entanglement is bad, as is the complete disregard of religion. The balance struck by the founding fathers has worked well for over 200 years. I don't think it should be tampered with.Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdarby
____________
Jean
I think that there is no way politics can be devoid of faith unless people of faith no longer participate in the political system. We *all* bring our morals and beliefs to the political table, and to think that, because my morals are bound up in my faith (as I believe is the case for many) that somehow makes me unfit to be involved in the political system, to me, is pretty unfair.
Editing to also say that I was reading an article that states that people of faith are the most generous when it comes to helping those in need and giving to charities. I disagree with Fox News (if that's what they say, I don't watch it) that eliminating poverty and protecting the earth are bad things. We, as Christians, are charged with making this place better. Jesus refers to the Church as the Body of Christ, i.e., we are his hands and feet and are supposed to be about the business of doing the things that he cares about. Taking care of each other *should* be high on the list! In my church, it is a priority. I realize that the church, as an institution, has not always done well in this area. I hope that we all remember that churches are filled with fallible people, who, like all of us, are still on our individual journeys to being better people. I hope that people of faith do a better job of loving people as we go forward.
Just a reminder that it IS possible to stand for something, even if you don't subscribe to a religion or belief in a deity. There is such a thing as morality that is not based on faith, but on something like the golden rule--do unto others as you would have them do unto you. We don't have to be threatened by divine retribution to see the rightness in living according to that rule. Just my two cents.
slinkedog "I think if you read the words of Jesus, you will find that that's not what he was about."
The Jewish gal chimes in, I'm just a little Jewish kid from Petaluma, not raised observant or anything (although my Grandfather was a Cantor) but anywho from what I've read/heard/learned this Jesus guy was a pretty radical dude. You know, judge not lest you be...being judged as a Christian by how you treat others...a lot of really cool stuff. But lots of people don't read those parts. :o
I'm getting rather annoyed with this thread..I know you ladies mean well but this is not a place for relgion nor a place to promote christian beliefs. I don't come to a biking board to read about religion and praying :mad: .
I'm trying to keep my mouth shut as there are so many things i could say but it would get me kicked off the board...:(
c
It's funny you say that... Have actually been to Saddleback a number of times - it' one of the local mega churches and actually competes with my Church (Coast Hills). Warren is a dynamic speaker but there is something about him I well just don't like. I liked my old pastor who was quiet, and sweet, but very passionate about his faith. Saddleback is quite the powerhouse and many of my friends attend services thereQuote:
Originally Posted by mtbdarby
* * *
One thing I am concerned about that folks equate conservative religion with not being tolerant, or compassionate etc. My church gives a large portion of its collected money to help the poor. It established "Hope's House" a retreat for battered and abuse women. It regularly makes trips to Mexico to build houses and treat the needy with medical care. I give as much as I can to a number of charities and do support special governmental programs for those in need. These beliefs do not just belong to liberals. In addition, what is tolerance? I hear all too often conservatives are not tolerate but liberals only "tolerant" viewpoints that support their own. Both sides have their own agenda. Tolerance BTW does not mean condoning or accepting someone or something it means to allow without prohibiting or opposing. In other words, I believe abortion is wrong however, I tolerate one's belief to make that choice.
I don't think Fox News speaks for the conservative right. Most of those guys (especially Bill O'Reilly and Rush Limbaugh) are hacks. Talk about trolls!
Bottom line the evangelical church is not filled with only right wing conservatives, there are people there from all walks of life, both right and left (I'm in the middle but have been registered Democrat most of my life). Worshipping God is far above any petty( or not so petty) earthly issue. Again, I think churches by and large have gotten a bad rap. There are all sorts, ones to suit any needs, thoughts and desire as long as in your heart you are there to worship God. I agree church and state should be separate; religion and politics are definitely two separate issues.
Crazy - this discussion has been cordial and informative and I'm glad I have a place to exchange these ideas with reasonable women. Sorry it offends. I would recommended you no longer visit the tread but I invite you to stay because so many wonderful ideas have been exchanged.Quote:
Originally Posted by crazycanuck
And Trek - you so get it!!! Jesus was a radical dude. He led by example but did not judge. If only we could all be that cool. I have a long way to go... :-(
After some reflection, I have to agree with this. Firstly, why is this thread under "Cycling Related" Topics?? And Second (and more importantly) if we read the forum guidelines plainly printed under Open Topic(Non-cycling related) here is what it says:Quote:
Originally Posted by crazycanuck
"Remember, the focus of these forums is women's cycling and fitness. Other forums exist elsewhere on the Internet for involved discussions of religion, politics, etc."
This thread seems to be starting to evolve into a religion/politics/WhatWouldJesusDo kind of debate. They always do, people always get upset, and that's why politics and religion just don't blend well in online forums and are usually on the list of stuff not to start threads about.
You guys are right. Sorry!
This thread is under 'Cycling topics' I believe because Eden (is that right?) started a poll about how church-going habits and cycling habits coexisted.
I would agree with moving the thread under non-cycling open topics if a moderator wants to do that. However I don't think crazycanuck would be kicked out for what she has to say. A number of us, including myself, have expressed disagreement, skepticism, or other non-churchly feelings, done so respectfully, and the discussion has only grown better... I am in fact quite impressed at the level of maturity I have read here.
I wouldn't promote TE as a spirituality forum, but considering that many have expressed that riding their bikes in nature is a spiritual experience... well I can tolerate a thread on such a topic once in a while.
OK last post for me - but they are many other threads and discussions on this forum that are totally non-bike related from favorite snacks, to movies, to personal issues etc. I think as long as the discussion is cordial and interesting it should be allowed but once someone starts to complaint, it's time to move on.
This forum to me has always been my safe haven. Time and again it gets testy (lord I remember the can of worms I opened by mentioning Dr. Laura) and we must change the subject but I never ever want to feel like I can't be open and be able to discuss things that matter to me with you all. Although I am a cyclist and cycling bought me to this site, I am also a member of this community and consider it "family" of a sort and enjoy discussions with everyone even if the topic gets "off topic".
PS: What's more spiritual than riding a bike?
Sex?? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by bcipam
you had to go there... what's sex????? Been so long can't remember! :rolleyes:
I rarely post anymore, but I'll come out of lurkdom for this.
I'm a no-go for church. I've been to the local UU church and loved it, but felt also that I don't really need that type of community- just to touch on it now and again and reaffirm that yes, it's still there.
I was raised somewhat religiously, they were pretty relaxed, teaching me that it was okay to ask questions when I needed to know something. Obviously, the answers did not work for me, for reasons I don't wish to elaborate on right now.
I believe that we are all gods and goddesses in our own right and the will and the way of the universe is dictated through our own intentions and efforts. I'm not sure what 'category' that falls under, but really, I think all religions have a hint of truth in them... their main shortcomings are that they are perpetuated by people, with peoples' motivations, selective memories and natural us vs. them natures.
I believe that closed-mindedness is our single greatest hurdle spiritually. If we cannot rise above our native black and white to the world of grey that exists, we are no better than children. If we cannot find our way in this world of grey without someone dictating rules to us, we are weak and must find the strength in ourselves. If we cannot help our friends when they lose their way, then we will never be able to help ourselves. Finally, we are not our bodies. The body and the spirit influence each other, reflect one another, but they are not the same. After the body passes on, the spirit still exists, to what end, I don't know.
As far as sex goes, sex is the representation of will, passion, and desire. To me, lovemaking is spiritual, when you feel the bond you create with your lover... Sex is less so... the above representation...
Wow, I'm really surprised by the poll. I'm not really sure what people mean when they are a "spiritual person" I understand being inspired, calmed, enlightened, etc... by the beauty of nature. Also living by a moral/ethic code lets us have a civil county, but to me Faith/Belief is what is important. Churches simply assist people in developing their faith, if your church doesn't help you in this manner, there are churches that can. Please look around for one that suits you.
As for politics and religion, I think its BS. I don't have any problems with "In God we trust", etc... but the government should let people decide for themselves on personal matters.
I hope to not offend anyone, but to simply suggest the option to people that have had less then positive experiences. There are places that will help them on their spiritual journey, if you will.
Spiritual (Adjective)
1. Concerned with sacred matters or religion or the church; "religious texts"; "monks of a religious order"; "lords temporal and spiritual"; "spiritual leaders"; "spiritual songs".
2. Concerned with or affecting the spirit or soul; "a spiritual approach to life"; "spiritual fulfillment"; "spiritual values"; "unearthly love".
3. Lacking material body or form or substance; "spiritual beings"; "the vital transcendental soul belonging to the spiritual realm"-Lewis Mumford.
4. Relating to or concerned with religion or spiritual things; especially dedicated to service in a religion; "a monk of a religious order"; "spiritual leaders"; "religious books"; "spiritual songs".
Faith (Noun)
1. A strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny; "he lost his faith but not his morality".
Source: WordNet 1.7.1 Copyright © 2001 by Princeton University. All rights reserved.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grog
Let me first say I've been impressed with all of you and that you have remained quite open minded. My intent was definitely not to debate or cause debate about any particular religion, but I am truely curious about the interaction and maybe this comes from the fact that I am not religious and wasn't raised as such so I wonder about it at times. I guess I was really curious to know if we are a less religious group than the non-cycling community or if it was just my personal bias. At least as far as organized religion goes and it seems that we are. I won't attempt to draw any conclusions from that because I don't think that it is possible from a small group such as this and there are plenty of variables that could explain it other than cycling and probably plenty of explanations that could be related to cycling that I can't get at with such a small poll.
The one thing that I do find to be interesting is that no one rearranged their religious service to free their weekends. I thank you all for satisfying my curiosity and remaining in civil conversation. And please feel free to happily retire this thread.