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Hi, KnottedYetQuote:
Originally Posted by KnottedYet
I would buy them especially because you can get any number for $50. Plus, you will get a better quality.
However, I totally undertand why people would like to get them off the Internet. I paid a stupid amount of money for my Tour de Phoenix photos. And I didn't even get a CD. It was a total rip off. And for what? To have someoen print a few shots. So, although I do not support geeting them off the internet, I also understand why it is done.
I'm in the "art is intellectual property" fold. One of the reasons I don't post drawings, cartoons online is that for many artists while imitation may be the highest form of flattery, seeing your work used without permission is not flattering.
If I link a homepage or slideshow to my homepage (got tons of links to ALC'ers) I ask permission. We can seed the course with camera carrying friends at these events and or take pictures of each other but if the Pro has the shot of me I want, sure I'll pay.
S/he probably went to the same art school I did and that's expensive so should be able to recoup that cost. ;)
I agree - snagging pics off the web is wrong. Kit - just put yourself in the shoes of the photographer and think about how it would make you feel.
I think it's safe to say Kit understands the reality of the photog biz now!
Yes, I think this whole thing was not a crit of Kit or anyone else, more a poll of common attitudes.
Even the artists themselves have to deal with how they feel about and the extent they want to protect their work. For example there are drawings I don't mind if people "take" other pieces...not so much. :)
Alright, alright. It's not 'okay'. For the record, When I do have $20 that's not going to be going toward gas or groceries, and something like that comes up, I do pay for it, because I do recognize the time and effort it takes for the photographers who are actually employed by businesses and have to take those kinds of numbers of shots for events, not that I necessarily in any way respect the exorbidant prices they feel they can charge people for a simple .jpg file or 3x5.
Yes, you have to recoup the costs of camera gear, and yes, it's rediculously expensive, but when you're looking at 6 professional photographers taking in excess of 4k shots each, of over 3k participants, then charging $6.50 for a 3x5 print (and $3 for every one after that) or $16 for a single high-res image on disc... Assuming that only half of the participants decided to purchase a single 3x5.
that's still $9,750. This isn't, of course, counting the photos professional groups like the sponsors will be purchasing.
I just have a problem with most photographers and their prices in general. I have an ex who was a photographer. He charged, generally, over $300 for a shot that honestly would have been very easy for pretty much anyone to get with a regular, bought-from-Walmart camera (they're getting pretty good now, a pro Nikon from 'back in the day' is your run of the mill $400 camera at Walmart or Target), had decent artistic merit but wasn't anything beyond what I'm capable of, and now that all of the work is digital, he didn't have to mess with dark rooms, chemicals, or the like. Just adjust the levels, highpass then soft light the highpass, and you're done... 30 minutes of work on a shot you took on your vacation, then charge someone who has too much money and too little sense $300+ for it. That is Theft.
Then again, I tried to sell my art once upon a time and failed miserably because I hate to take advantage of something I do well for money. So... I just post it online and let people take it.
I don't think you really understand what's involved in getting a really great shot. Like this one, which I've seen on other sites and NO ONE has ever asked if they can use it. Just to get the shot took 8 hours.
http://www.tandemhearts.com/hawaii-0...04-lava-27.jpg
Good action photography isn't easy either. There's a lot of planning ahead to get a good location. You have to think about lighting and plan accordingly. You can't get a great shot of everyone.
http://www.tandemhearts.com/bike/dmd...ter_sierra.jpg
Taking something from someone else because you think it's too epensive is theft. Would you walk into McDonalds and swipe a burger off the counter because you thought they were too expensive or you didn't have the money to pay for it?
Selling a product at whatever price you want is called the free market.
Veronica
Of course, selling anything you want at whatever price you want is free market. Free market also implies that the public determines the price by not buying things that are deemed to expensive. Theft isn't necessarily factored into the decision of the price, given the basis of 'free market' is generally given to solid goods, not generally intellectual property.
FWIW, I bought the kreutz photography CD after fishing through my pictures to make it worthwhile, but I was just PO'd by how outrageously expensive it was. I can understand when individual photographers will charge a lot for some very nice, very (obviously) time-consuming or challenging shots, but some things just do not justify the amount of profit margin placed on them. I suppose my argument is a totally lost cause, but I feel artists should hold themselves to *some* moral obligation regarding their pricing.
BTW, Veronica, those ARE beautiful shots, and sometime when I have the funds, I'd like to talk about ordering a print. I just have a hard time when I *know* people aren't honest about the amount of 'work' or 'effort' or 'base cost' put in. The shots you produced, I can see easily going for +$200, given the quality and the lighting.
Veronica--what IS that first shot? It looks like meteors landing, or the dawn of the Earth, or something else fairly dangerous! It's also spectacularly beautiful. Thanks for sharing it with us.
I bought a bunch of pictures of me after the marathon. I do not have the FOGGIEST idea why I thought I'd need all those copies. I think I was still suffering from post-race stupidity syndrome. But if anyone would like a 5x7 glossy of me in the Chicago Marathon, I will gladly send you one! :p
I did order two 4x6 prints of the cool action shot of me on my bike from the most recent tri. One for me, one for Mom.
I agree that they're crazy expensive. But given that I tried to take a picture of my cats lying on the rug and it came out as a grey and orange blur...I can see why they charge what they can for the product. I could beg my friends to stand around and take pix of me, and they have in the past. But those high quality action shots are rare, in my experience. So, I buy a picture or two. Or, in the case of the marathon...10? :o
first pictures looks like lava going into the ocean. beautiful pictures.
from being a model for a few years i know how hard it is to get a good shot, specially action and it to look good. i'm just happy that i never had to pay for any of those pictures that we did, i can use them as i please. had a friend that is a photographer and we just had fun doing them, but there was an unbelievable amount of work done on them. i think i would be hurt if someone took them for their gain, but i have shared some of them freely on the web. though i'm picky with the ones i share. suprisingly he never asked for his cut of my winning from a bikini shoot we did.... maybe i shouldn't say that to loud......
knotted if you want the pictures and you feel like you should have them for memory. no matter what the cost i think you should have them for yourself. to show off to everyone because we are so proud of you for doing it and i think everyone else should be proud too!
Is that the Big Island (Hawaii)? Wherever it is, that photo is absolutely amazing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Veronica
--- Denise
Hawaii - the Big island. Up at 1:30 to drive two hours, hike an hour over the lava field to get the shot of the lava hitting the ocean at dawn. Hike back, drive back... Do you know how heavy good camera equipment is? :D Or how hot lava is?
V.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Veronica
The picture is spectacular! Thank you for sharing it. :-)
Kitsune, $10,000 may seem like a lot of money for one afternoon's work, but that may be deceiving. There is more to it than that. A typical freelance photog does not do this every weekend. The rest of the month may be spent processing, organizing, mailing, web mastering, accounting etc. often in excess of the typical 40-hour week. If they do this once a month, that is a yearly net income of $120,000. Wow, cool.Quote:
Yes, you have to recoup the costs of camera gear, and yes, it's rediculously expensive, but when you're looking at 6 professional photographers taking in excess of 4k shots each, of over 3k participants, then charging $6.50 for a 3x5 print (and $3 for every one after that) or $16 for a single high-res image on disc... Assuming that only half of the participants decided to purchase a single 3x5.
that's still $9,750. This isn't, of course, counting the photos professional groups like the sponsors will be purchasing.
But factor in taxes, advertising expenses, equipment/computer costs, postage, legal and business expenses, insurance, airfare and hotels, licensing rights... all of a sudden that income may be $30-40,000.
If a photog does this often, he/she will need a slew of employees to pay for, plus a lot more in travel expenses, workmans comp, facilities, etc.
Of the prof. sports photogs I know personally (about 10) not one of them leads an extravagant lifestyle or drives a Lexus. I know a few who show up in old, beat-up clothing, choosing that new lens over their own comfort. Very, very few make a grand living at it. The remaining 95% are just trying to make a living.
BTW, I'm not sure what the stats for photogs is, but for artists, there was a survey done a few years ago. Only 7% of fine artists with art degrees can make a living at it. It's not a business for the weak of heart. ;)
Veronica, those pics are awesome!
You said it! I had to take a running shot of a particular horse. This picture may look easy, but it came only after going to the track on two separate occasions for racing, a number of visits for workouts and going over 100s of bad shots... what a pain! When you think of the percentages = 100 shots = 2 or 3 good ones... most of shots just go straight to the trash.Quote:
Originally Posted by Veronica