Concussion denial: in mixed marital art (or UFC) fighting like bike helmet debate?

I know that concussions cause cumulative damage. I also know that concussions still occur with helmets. However my previous comment about football helmets was related to the fact that some helmets are better than others and new versions are being developed all the time. We're not going to get rid of football in high schools. It's just not going to happen. I'm happy that our community schools have invested in the most modern helmets that are better than the old helmets. Because let's face it - there would be kids out there playing that sport even if they couldn't get a helmet.

Concussions are going to happen in any sport. I've actually read somewhere (I couldn't find it quickly) that more kids in soccer suffer concussions than in football. Am I going to tell my kids they can't play soccer and basketball (their chosen sports)? No. I believe that the positive outcomes that are certain to occur in those two sports outweigh the potential harm. Is that a different equation with football? Probably. I take risks when I ride my bike too. Am I going to quit riding bikes? Nope. I'm just going to be as prepared as I can be. Am I going to be educated about it and keep an eye out for symptoms? Yes. Am I grateful that the schools are now providing more training to trainers, coaches, officials to recognize symptoms? Yes. And I have talked to our physician about it - after the scare I mentioned above where my son was hit in the head in a basketball game (not football). I was also grateful that the schools had taken the risk seriously and that ALL athletes are required to do the prior screening (not just football).

With respect to the kids admitting that they don't feel well -- there are some symptoms that kids can't mask (pupil reactions, etc.) I've seen many a kid removed from the game by officials even when the kids insisted they felt fine and could stay in the game. I'm glad that the IHSAA (Indiana High School Athletic Association) has vested its officials with the capacity to make those calls because let's face it, there are kids/parents/coaches who might not make the right call. Some researchers at Indiana University are testing a goggles like device that scans eye activity that will take out the subjective testing to immediately detect concussions. I'm excited that we'll likely see this technology on the sidelines of a lot of sports in the next year or so removing the human part of the screening all together (then again, it will still take someone noticing that someone took a hit to the head in order to decide to screen them).

There's still a lot of work to do. Concussions are serious. I'm glad I live in the times I do where the risks are being taken seriously, many people are doing research and developing new knowledge and products. It was a lot different 40 years ago.

Well said, Aromig.

You're lucky Aromig to have some mechanisms being worked on in your area and parental support.

When my partner, as a volunteer parent, was coaching his son's soccer team, he made a decision not to have the boys head the soccer ball. (Hit the oncoming ball with your head instead of kicking it.) He's glad he did it. This was ...28 yrs. ago or more. In watching my teen nephews' soccer games, they don't head the ball. The top Canadian medical research organization on brain injuiries and sport (hockey, football, etc.) is in Toronto. Some of the professional Canadian players who died, donated their brain for research.

I don't know about other countries, but I think all places in the US are going to start getting similar support very soon. There are enough big lawsuits out there about concussions that sports organizations are on notice that ignorance is no longer bliss.

I'm trying to find the time to go see the movie "concussion."

My youngest is a goalie - and he's been hit in the face by the ball a few times, but by far (I think in my uneducated opinion) headers are pretty dangerous - it's not necessarily the ball but when its up in the air more than one person will try to head the ball and then they end up hitting heads. It also makes me super nervous when my goalie kid dives after the ball with all the legs/feet still trying to kick it. yes, there are times they're supposed to clear the goal box but wow, its scary.

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Originally Posted by rebeccaC

I've only had to use those skills twice in my life outside a dojo and both times to end a sexual assault attempt quickly and effectively, one with a knife used and both led to an arrest and conviction.....but then that is just a side advantage of my continuing journey of self-defense based on non-violence and the preservation of life with my present sensei. aikido, yoga and pilates are my trinity......at the moment :)

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Wow. Just wow. I'm out of shape and out of training but heading back to the matt. Yeah, Aikido works. To heck with it being "dance-like", eh? So glad that you're trained and that it ended well for you. While injuries are rare in Aikido and there's very little risk of concussion one does take a beating falling so often. OTOH all that getting up again is good for us.

I've never faced a live knife and hope to heck and back I never have to. It has helped a couple times when I took a fall off the bike! :cool:

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Originally Posted by shootingstar

All this denial, is similar to nay-sayers on bike helmet use.

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There is no helmet debate where bikes are used for sports.

An adult who is familiar and proficient at riding rolling down the block to the store on a Dutch bike is not exactly MMA-level risk, and should be able to make that call on their own.

Can we please not have a "should bike helmets be mandatory" debate here?

Exactly. I am not going to argue. A fall where you hit your head at 5 mph when rolling on your city bike is not going to make your brain happy.

Exactly- that's why I never take my full face helmet off at any time. Imagine the damage you could do just tripping while walking through the market or rolling out of bed! I certainly never set foot inside a motor vehicle, where 20% of all of TBIs occur (an activity where professional racers wear helmets religiously, and the idea of regular people using helmets during this activity is laughed at).

TL;DR- humans are incredibly bad at evaluating risk, and I hate to see bikes singled out and uniformly and illogically thrown under the metaphorical bus. Australia is well-known as very unfriendly to bikes (universal helmet law) and The Netherlands is pretty well-known as bike heaven (very low rate of helmet use). At least differentiate "cycle sports" from "bikes".

Ya know… I recently read that it is more often than not it is pointless to try to talk someone out of viewpoint…. worse yet that often, in perverse opposition to reason, presenting a person with facts only entrenches them more strongly in their beliefs… so I'm going to remember that this was a discussion primarily about intentionally participating in sports where concussion is likelihood or even an inevitability and not about mandatory helmet wearing on bike rides (even if it was peripherally compared to that debate).

I've tried to stay away from concussion discussion 'cause I'm one of those with cumulative injury. Not sure how many I've had. Just know I've had more than enough. My last one, if it were to happen to an average person with 0 or 1 concussion prior then most likely, that person would have walked away with a mild one. I ended up without short term memory for a while, I have no recollection of ambulance ride nor the hospital stay nor being discharged from the hospital after a week or so stay. Neurosurgeon said that there will be no next one for me.

I'm jut glad that parents and coaches are taking concussions more seriously. Even my nephew said something about concussion in soccer players from hitting the ball with head.

Nope, no one can change my mind. And, I won't get into it with sarcasm. But, I do evaluate risks in *all* situations, not just riding. I've had a concussion from a car accident and accidentally slamming the point of my car door into my head, while opening it (when I was getting in the car to meet Hirakukibou for a ride!). I am extremely risk averse in everything, not just cycling! Less so, than when I was younger, but when you are brought up to fear everything, I've come a long way. It's funny, because my "regular" friends think I am a dare devil. There's a lot of things I evaluate and don't do, that have nothing to do with cycling.

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Originally Posted by smilingcat

I've tried to stay away from concussion discussion 'cause I'm one of those with cumulative injury. Not sure how many I've had. Just know I've had more than enough. My last one, if it were to happen to an average person with 0 or 1 concussion prior then most likely, that person would have walked away with a mild one. I ended up without short term memory for a while, I have no recollection of ambulance ride nor the hospital stay nor being discharged from the hospital after a week or so stay. Neurosurgeon said that there will be no next one for me.

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This is just more details of what happened to me on Jan. 1, 2015 (this is how I started a new year):

Like you smilingcat for your last concussion (I assume your neurosurgeon meant if there was another one next time, then you could be disabled.), I have no recollection of what happened for 3 hrs. or so after the other cyclist crashed into me. I was turning a corner on a bike path.

I don't even have memory when the collision occurred. No memory of me waiting (and babbling) by the bike path while waiting for ambulance, no memory of ambulance ride, no memory of being rolled in the CT scanner at hospital. It was like the movies: I woke up in some pain and I was lying on a spinal board in hospital bed. I also had a neck brace put on me. My partner and neurological intern was bending over me. My partner asked me a question to test my memory: "When did your father die?"

I was able to specify correctly: 2 wks. ago. Then I cried and said my father was no longer around. That he was dead. My partner was relieved because he told me, my memory was finally coming back.

Jack, my partner, said that after the collision, I got up and sort of walked. I was talking and repeating, repeating some sentences. This is why Jack was uncertain if there was anything wrong with me. But bystanders and he had 911 call placed. There was an off-duty police officer and someone who seemed to have first response experience in calming me down and keeping me warm. I don't remember any of this.

Anyway, my sister-emergency medicine doctor explained to me that: immediately after a concussion accident, sometimes a person's short term memory is lost temporarily...that what you said to me, I wouldn't have remembered what you said at all. Also me looking at a person, but not seeing nor retaining visual memory right at that moment. In otherwise: I was a walking, talking robot, not undersanding anything nor even retaining visual understanding/memory of what I was seeing in front of my face.

Every few hrs. for 24 hrs., hospital staff asked me a series of same questions to test my memory.


I had my memory back but first month, even reading a computer screen was exhausting, scrolling screen up and down was too much. Physicians request that there be no computer screen time for first few wks. (this will vary, depending on severity). Not even iPhone. I was dizzy for first 2 months ...to point I got dizzy just turning slowly in kitchen to chop food. So Jack did 90% of food preparation and grocery shopping for lst 2 months.

My recovery included walking for 1/2 hr. with Jack daily. So we went to coffee shop. I could not even walk at night over snow and ice. During my recovery, I noticed when I would jog down a grocery aisle to find something quickly, I got slightly dizzy: it was because of all the different colours and shapes on shelves whizzing by. My physician told me that some patients are just dizzy being in a room with wallpaper designs.

I was back on bike in June 2015 and commuting to work. At this stage I was back to work full-time. But I was on disability leave for lst few months.

For Nandy:
I have never been a cycling competitor. I have never cycled with drop down handlebars. For last few years, probably cycle at a reasonable speed ..but under 18 km./hr. I don't time myself much..I just know how long it takes me to do xxxx distance to xxxx destination. I've been a cyclist, car-free for nearly last 24 yrs. I have done several multi-wk. cycling tours with my own loads over the years. I will be 57 this yr.

Because I don't drive, then I rely on my own mobility to walk, cycle or take transit. Hence, I do have to ensure I reduce risks. ....not just for health and fitness, but for work and shopping. Sometimes my partner is somewhere else because we have 2 homes. So I do need to be able-bodied to do stuff solo too.
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Here is gratitude for our brain: Our brain works SO HARD for us. Our brain is the command control center for everything that we do. It controls every step we make, every movement, our speech, vision, it regulates other bodily functions, etc.

Sure, anecdotes are fine, I'm not saying that you shouldn't use a helmet in non-competitive situations- just that enormous blanket statements insinuating that everyone in all riding situations everywhere must wear one is unhelpful, and in some ways actually harms cycling. In other anecdotes, I know more people who suffered TBIs from walking than from cycling, and probably 80% of people I know are cyclists.

I also realize the choice is massively dependent on conditions, and if most of us here live in North America, the roads are usually very hostile to us. It took me years of full-time riding in Boston to get comfortable without a helmet (and only after visiting Amsterdam where it clicked that it makes so much sense and that's how I want to live, and followed up on relevant research and started actively fighting for sensible urban planning), but Buffalo is different because the drivers here are so much more negligent and the infrastructure is so abysmal- but they're normally speeding so fast I'm unlikely to survive in the event of a crash anyway, foam hat or not. We need real solutions in this country, helmets can help individuals in some specific situations but it's a distraction from the actual issue.

From an individual perspective, it makes sense to reduce your personal risk in small way possible, especially because we're such an out group in this country- simply waiting for adequate laws and infrastructure isn't going to cut it. From a societal perspective, helmet fixation is generally used by anti-cycling groups (like automakers) to make cycling seem ultra-dangerous and to scare people away from it, and becomes a band-aid to shift responsibility to cyclists instead of working for solutions that will actually increase safety, further discouraging people to ride (as well as greatly increasing the risk for the riders out there- safety in numbers). This http://http://bicyclesafe.com/helmets.html is a great little overview of the misconceptions and ways from a societal standpoint in which excessive pressure to wear helmets can be harmful.

But anyway, to get back to the original post- comparing all forms of cycling to MMA fighting or headbutting each other in football and mocking "the bike helmet debate" just serves to exacerbate this dangerous trend. To the people accusing me of derailing this thread: its title is "Concussion denial: in mixed marital art (or UFC) fighting like bike helmet debate?". Are concussions bad? Yes. You should try to avoid them. Are repeated concussions a frequent, unavoidable, and inherent quality to all forms of cycling, comparable to intentionally punching each other in the head like boxing? No, of course not. This is ridiculous. Seriously, take a little vacation to pretty much any place in continental Europe, it'll change your life and put things in perspective.https://youtu.be/ZMv3OB6XHvQ

This is ridiculous. Seriously, take a little vacation to pretty much any place in continental Europe, it'll change your life and put things in perspective.https://youtu.be/ZMv3OB6XHvQ

Sure. I have already for 4 wks. We brought our bikes along and cycling : Germany, France, Prague (cycling infrastructure is more like North American cities) and 5 days in Copenhagen. My partner headed up the Velo-city 2012 cycling conference in Vancouver. It's only been North America twice. He's been working hard (volunteer work) on cycling infrastructure matters in Vancouver and Toronto with the municipality for past 20 years when we lived there (well, he's still involved in Vancouver). Out of his own money, my partner did 3 additional cycling trips in Spain, different parts of Germany and France .....where part of the time was spent documenting cycling infrastructure and bikeshares there.

He and I are talking about a trip abroad to celebrate our 25th anniversary. Not sure if it's this year or whenever.

I've fallen off my bike 9 times in my cycling years. Except for concussion accident, other times, I was on ice and was cycling super slow (10 km./hr.) because I knew it was ice..but realized it was too late. So I fell over in slow motion but luckily never on my head/face. Thankfully no other cyclists and cars were around. My 8 falls had nothing to do with lack of cycling infrastructure or anyone else. It was weather related and my own judgement. I'm mortal, fallible and imperfect.

Best wishes, Nandy.