LBS and womens bikes

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Originally Posted by Irulan

I think it's important to not use a broad brush here. Most of my local shops understand pretty well what women want/need, and the broader community as a whole ( not just road riding). Just because it's not happening in your community doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

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I agree, but I think it's regional. The guy who did my fitting at my LBS, when I mentioned something about it being hard to find WSD bikes, even in that LBS (the area's largest), said that they'd love to offer more things that aren't pastel cruisers or lower-end road bikes (not that there's anything wrong with either of these!) but from a business perspective they have a hard time justifying it because they don't move as fast. They're trying to have a frame in each size that's representative of the line at least somewhere in their system, but it still means that you either have to drive all over the region or wait several days to be able to test it.
But then, this is bass-ackward Ohio, so I'm sure it's better in the PNW and other more bike-friendly parts of the country.

OK, so I rode a Specialized Dolce compact 48cm and Trek Madone 50cm this morning. The LBS guy was very thorough in fit, I think, putting me through the BodyCRM scanner, changing the stem on the Dolce and adjusting the saddle position after measuring with a plumb line. I was probably there for about three hours on just the two bikes. He talked about putting the bike up on the trainer and doing more adjustments after I found the right bike.

I did like my riding position on the Dolce, though my wrists/hands were sore after about the first 15 minutes. Not sure whether that is due to the new angle, to fit issues, or both. After my first ride on the Dolce and adjusting the saddle, the wrist issue eased a little. I found it somewhat hard to reach the brakes with my hands on the hoods, and could only brake with my lower two fingers. He mentioned that they could add a shim to make everything slightly closer. Is that normal? Also, I was really struggling to get on the saddle and moving because I was having some trouble touching my foot down. How much should I be able to reach the ground from the saddle?
I wish they'd had the 44 Dolce so that I could compare, though LBS guy insisted that it would be too small, and that I really needed something between the 44 and 48.

I expected to like the Madone a lot more, but I think that it was waaay too big. 50cm meant a 51.7 effective top tube, and I was stretching like mad. Of course there was nothing smaller in shop. They won't order the Terry for me unless I commit to buying it or unless Terry pays to take it back. Need to find out if they still have that offer, and figure out whether I want to deal with that. I'm feeling somewhat stuck in that I think this LBS guy was great and really paid attention to fit, but that out of a huge store with probably 100 or so bikes on display, there were only two for me to try, and both seemed a bit big. Obviously I can't make myself taller, but gosh, looking at all of those shiny bikes that weren't my size-- well, that was depressing. We had a separate convo about cyclocross bikes, but same problem-- nothing remotely my size in the shop.

Thinking about trying to hit the Trek concept shop tonight before they close. We'll see. I'm going to call the Terry dealer that's 3.5 hrs away (in Columbus) and see how quickly they could get in a bike for me to try, and then perhaps schedule a weekend trip later in June.

I'm also back to thinking about the Surly. While most of my current riding is on paved trails, one of my goals has been to ride part of the GAP trail between Pittsburgh and Washington, DC. Its a crushed limestone rail trail. So perhaps I need to think more about what I want to do with this bike, too. I want to go fast and far, but maybe I need to compromise.

Sounds like you had a thorough fit! There are still adjustments they can make. My hoods got fiddled with a lot, both rotating them in some and rotating them up some - it was huge.

Now, I'm not as small as you, but you may not be able to put a foot down easily and you'll just have to get used to it.

Before the trek haters come on board... I LOVE my madone. One of my buddies is very small and riders the 47 and is very happy.

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Originally Posted by Irulan

Before the trek haters come on board... I LOVE my madone. One of my buddies is very small and riders the 47 and is very happy.

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Me? I don't hate my Trek. I just hate the service at the concept store and Trek WI. To the OP, I have a lemon of a concept store. There are probably good ones out there. If you have a good LBS you should never need to go to Trek WI.

The bike is great. I think that fact got lost in all of the talk about the service. It weighs practically nothing. The acceleration is incredible. Overall handling is awesome. The carbon fiber is really nice - stiff enough for good energy transfer but not punishing.

You are a little smaller than me -- I'm 5'2" and have a 28.5" cycling inseam and long femurs. I was perfectly fitted on my 17.5" Terry Isis back in the day and have also had a 46 cm bike that fit me. I can also ride a 47cm Trek (possibly needing a slightly shorter stem on that one).

I am sure there may be some models/brands in which a 48 cm would work for me that I have not had the opportunity to try, but I can't imagine any bike that would fit me in a 50-51cm.

Just wanted to chime in for comparison purposes. I think it's actually quite possible that a 44 cm would fit you, but no way to know until you try one.

Good luck!

I'd encourage you to at least test ride a Terry before you make up your mind. I'm a small woman and was never comfortable on a road bike until I got on a Terry. I'm not sure what their policy is on taking back a stock bike if you don't like it but it's worth a call to the company to find out.

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Originally Posted by breeze

... Also, I was really struggling to get on the saddle and moving because I was having some trouble touching my foot down. How much should I be able to reach the ground from the saddle?

...I'm also back to thinking about the Surly. While most of my current riding is on paved trails, one of my goals has been to ride part of the GAP trail between Pittsburgh and Washington, DC. Its a crushed limestone rail trail. So perhaps I need to think more about what I want to do with this bike, too. I want to go fast and far, but maybe I need to compromise.

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You should not be expecting to put your foot on the ground from the saddle. This can be done by cruiser riders on things like Electras with the extreme (almost semi-recumbent) seat tube angle. On a normal road bike, you'd have to have the saddle far too low to be able to do that.
The usual way to start on a road bike is with one foot on the ground, the other on a pedal (usually the right, if you're right-handed) at the high side of the pedal stroke. Push off, find the other pedal in a standing position, then sit down.
If you're feeling stretched out on the WSD bikes you've been trying, a Surly (unless it's very tiny) will probably feel even more so. I looked at their frame geometry charts a couple years ago when searching for a touring bike and found that the top tubes were quite long compared with other makes in the same size.

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Originally Posted by nuliajuk

You should not be expecting to put your foot on the ground from the saddle. This can be done by cruiser riders on things like Electras with the extreme (almost semi-recumbent) seat tube angle. On a normal road bike, you'd have to have the saddle far too low to be able to do that......

If you're feeling stretched out on the WSD bikes you've been trying, a Surly (unless it's very tiny) will probably feel even more so. I looked at their frame geometry charts a couple years ago when searching for a touring bike and found that the top tubes were quite long compared with other makes in the same size.

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Yes, for most bikes you can't expect to be able to touch more than your toes to the ground if your seat-post is adjusted to the right height to give you proper leg extension. If your legs aren't extended properly in the stroke then you will eventually develop injuries related to this. That being said, what many do is to start with the seat-post a little lower than optimum and then gradually raise the saddle height to the correct height (having marked it before lowering it a bit). This helps provide more confidence while building skills.

As far as the LHT is concerned. It is a touring bike with a different geometry than a "regular" road bike (however you define that), it is meant to stretch you out a bit more for those all-day long loaded touring rides. While a touring bike is a type of road bike, it isn't an apples to apples comparison. My first bike was a Trek (7.6FX) I bought it before I realized that Trek doesn't make one small enough - well, really, proportioned properly for me. I've fit issues beyond my size and nothing in the FX line comes close to fitting me.

The Trek experience led me to purchase a LHT as my next bike and I found that the LHT fit me FAR better even though it had a longer TT. So far I've not ridden a WSD that actually fit me, and I am short. The LHT was an awesome bike, and while I did convert the bike from drops to flat bars, it wasn't due to reach problems.

This is a long-winded way to tell you not to write off the LHT before finding one to test ride if possible. The LHT is all-day long comfortable, but it is heavy as it is meant for fully-loaded touring and the smaller sizes could be said to be over-built and perhaps a little too stable. I loved mine, and while I did eventually sell mine for reasons unrelated to the bike, I will always have fond memories of it.

Just wanted to chime in - I can touch my toes (just my toes) to the ground when I'm on the saddle and it's adjusted properly - but I have big feet. If your feet are proportional to your height, you probably won't be able to do that :)

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Originally Posted by nuliajuk

You should not be expecting to put your foot on the ground from the saddle. This can be done by cruiser riders on things like Electras with the extreme (almost semi-recumbent) seat tube angle. On a normal road bike, you'd have to have the saddle far too low to be able to do that.
The usual way to start on a road bike is with one foot on the ground, the other on a pedal (usually the right, if you're right-handed) at the high side of the pedal stroke. Push off, find the other pedal in a standing position, then sit down.
If you're feeling stretched out on the WSD bikes you've been trying, a Surly (unless it's very tiny) will probably feel even more so. I looked at their frame geometry charts a couple years ago when searching for a touring bike and found that the top tubes were quite long compared with other makes in the same size.

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I think it's easier to find the second pedal if you sit down as soon as you push off with the first pedal. You're more stable at low speeds when you're seated.

If you are having trouble reaching the brakes from the hoods, then the reach is too far. Most people have trouble reaching the brakes from the drops, requiring shims or short reach levers. You might also want to look at "short and shallow" bars. The type of curve on the bar made a huge difference for me.
I am 5' 1" (maybe a little less now?) and I had a Trek 5200 (the precursor to the Madone) in a 47 cm. I had no issues with the overall size/fit, but I never really was able to get into the drops comfortably. Since then I bought a unisex frame and built it up with my own components. Getting a the Specialized bar with short and shallow drops, as well as the Ultegra short reach levers made biggest difference in the world. There are several companies that make these typs of bars.
I recently had a custom road bike with more relaxed geometry built for me. I found that they no longer make the Ultegra short reach brakes/levers. I got the new short reach 105s, but the reach is a few mm longer. This, combined with a slightly different bar still gets me comfortably into the drops, but I have to put my hands much further up into the curve to brake there. I am thinking about switching out to the Specialized bars on this bike, as the ones on there, while much more expensive, have bars angled down, in the newer style and I like the traditionally curved ones.
As everyone said, you should not be able to reach the ground with your feet, while on the saddle. I can put a toe down, if my bike is leaning, though.

Re the specialized 44 vs 48 , they do not look all that different when you look at the frame geometries (stack and reach are only about 1cm smaller on the 44). So you might want to give that a try.

For what its worth I am considerably taller than you (5'4" with 30 inch inseam) but with a short torso and arms and very small hands, and I ride bikes that are somewhat smaller than the ones you are trying. Of course a lot of this has to do with flexibility, proportions and preference for your position, but it may be that the frames you tried are too big. You report that your hands and wrists hurt after a short test ride and that you cant reach the brakes from the tops of the hoods- it sounds like the reach is too big on these bikes. You should be able to brake from the tops.

On the brake reach- SRAM rival has an adjustable lever. This plus small bars, etc (as others described above) make it possible for me to brake from the tops and drops. Shimano brakes can be Jerry rigged with spacers to create a similar effect

You may want to try the slightly smaller bikes, the 44cm Specialized and the 47cm Trek. I'm just a bit shorter than you are and would ride those sizes. Although I typically prefer the men's bike's geometry since I do have a bit shorter legs and a bit longer torso and arms. On that note it's virtually impossible to find LBS stores that stock the small frames in the men's versions as well. My old Trek store in the Charlotte area always keeps at least one of the smaller (47cm) Lexa's at one of their two stores. (They never stocked the smaller one that is now no longer made). Also a Specialized dealer in Raleigh always keeps at least 1 44cm Dolce in stock at one of their two stores. However, neither store stocks the small men's bikes. Now are new local Specialized/Felt store does have the smaller sized women's mountain bikes in stock and the Lexa, although they do not stock women's Felt bikes and only one of the Z line, they do stock several of the F series, and a different size in each of the ones they have a floor model of. (Although not the smallest one). They do stock (at least part of the time) 1 of the smallest of the men's Specialized bikes, although you never know which frame it will be. They really don't stock a lot of clothing (men or women's), but do stock tons of types of shoes and helmets. Although if I'm looking for clothing we go to Raleigh and check out Preformance (either in Cary or in Raleigh, although I prefer the Raleigh store). Now Performance stocks at least one example of each size of each of brands and types they carry.

Is the LBS willing to order you a 44 Dolce or 47 Trek? Only asking because my LBS was willing to do order me one at no obligation because they recognized that it was a size they didn't have in stock, and that they should carry at least one bike in that size for smaller size women to try (they have 4 stores and none of them stocked anything smaller than a 48).

They originally had me on a 48 (I'm 5'0 with a 26 inch inseam) and they were going to adjust it for me but another salesman realized that I was reaching out too far and he spoke to the manager and got a 44 approved. I think they saw that I was serious about the bike and figured that even if I didn't end up buying it, it would still be good to have on the floor.

Is there a Jamis dealer near you? I tried one of the smaller Jamis bikes as well but didn't like the fell of it as much as I liked the Specialized.

Thanks so much, everyone, for all of the feedback. I'm still looking at bikes locally (hoping to ride a Jamis Satellite tonight if the weather cooperates), and maybe a Felt this weekend.

I called the Terry dealer that is 3.5 hours from me and was super excited to hear that they have both the 44x50 and 46x50 Symmetry on the floor right now. I can't make the trip this weekend, but perhaps next weekend?? They offered to bring in any other Terry that I'd like to try, too. :D

Going back to the great LBS I visited this weekend-- I don't think they are thrilled with the idea of bringing in the 44 Dolce for me to try; the salesguy was pretty firm in that he thought it would be too small for me, and the same with the Trek 47. Not sure if he thought I wasn't serious enough, or if he's just worried that the shop would be stuck with the smaller bikes or what. An off note in an otherwise good experience there. Regarding the Trek, though: there's a group of three Trek concept shops in town, so I may be able to ride the smaller sizes through one of those. There are a ton of Trek authorized dealers around the area, too, so I'm less concerned about that (though bummed that Trek eliminated the Madone 43 for 2012).

I'm really leaning towards getting a "go fast" bike for now and finding a heavier touring/sort of CX bike for rail trails later. It seems like my mind changes daily on this, though, so grain of salt and all that. ;) I have to say that I never thought I'd want/need more than one bike and now I want ALL of the bikes! I can picture myself with several in my "stable" for years to come, and I'm pretty sure that DH is just as hooked... now I just need to finish grad school and make some money to afford all of these nice bikes!