well, Eden, your points are all good and since neither of us were there, I guess we can only imagine.
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well, Eden, your points are all good and since neither of us were there, I guess we can only imagine.
Exactly - from the described circumstances we can only say until the red light, he wasn't breaking any laws here in WA. I think people are too quick to judge without knowing any of the why's. There are places that I will never use a bike lane even it it is provided and cared for -for example steep/long down hill - I just will not limit myself to 3 or 4 feet of pavement for a 35mph descent. I want the whole lane when negotiating a corner at that kind of speed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Biciclista
From Colorado Department of Transportation.
"When to take a lane
A bicyclist may take the travel lane where traffic is slow
and the lane is narrow, there is no shoulder or bike lane,
when approaching an intersection, or if you are moving
at the same speed as the flow of traffic. Moving to the
center of the lane establishes your position and prevents
motorists from passing until there’s enough room."
Also, bicyclists may ride 2 abreast only if they are not impeding traffic.
I do habitually run a red light but it is during the low traffic time of day, rarely does a car show up to trip the light so I stop, make sure there is no traffic then proceed thru the light to the bike lane.
Remember traffic law is very location specific. Here in WA it is always legal to ride 2 abreast. In some places it is never legal. Here in WA bicycle lanes are always optional - in other states they are always mandatory.
Eden,
I agree with you on most of the points you make -- on a descent, you might be going faster than car traffic and it is not safe to be next to curb or edge of the road. And if the bike lane is dangerous because of car doors, debris or crack, the same applies.
I still think it is rude to ride two abreast when there is heavy traffic. Yes, it might be legal, but "legal" is not the same as courteous (or ethical in other contexts). In Illinois, that has been 'codified' into the law already ("Persons riding 2 abreast shall not impede the normal and reasonable movement of traffic and, on a laned roadway, shall ride within a single lane..."). In heavy traffic, two riders abreast also make life difficult for cyclists that might need to pass.
Regarding running red lights, as many have expressed here, I won't run one unless it is one that only changes when cars are present. In my usual riding route, there is only two of those and I have reported them to IDOT. I am curious to see what happens, because one of those lights won't even react to three big motorcycles -- I saw this last weekend. 3 motorcycles and two cyclists, the light never turned green. The next day, I arrived at the same intersection, with a car behind me, and within seconds we had a green light.
In Washington our law reads...
Persons riding bicycles upon a roadway shall not ride more than two abreast except on paths or parts of roadways set aside for the exclusive use of bicycles.
Technically they weren't even two abreast if they were in separate lanes. (you don't think of cars in adjacent lanes as two abreast do you?)
And I still don't think that there was nearly enough information to form any sort of judgment about what he was doing.... If he was on a street like Roosevelt, which is one way, but has 2-3 lanes at all times, not using the bike lane doesn't generally impede anyone. If traffic is so heavy that all of the lanes are full and a car could not simply change lanes to pass, then traffic is likely going more slowly than a bicycle can easily travel. In any case, the OP hasn't chimed back in to answer my questions, so while maybe he was noodling down the street and just being an obstruction, from the initial description he was acting in, at very least, a legal manner, so I still think that people shouldn't be so quick to judge the guy.
Let's agree to disagree on this one. Personally, I would rather avoid what my family used to call the 'German driver's epitaph': "But he had the right of way."
Eden, like you, I am going by what I know. The bike lanes you describe, with broken pavement, lots of debris, cars parked right along side and major hills, I can understand your not using them. I was basing it on our local bike lanes as described above - brand new and free of debris. In addition maybe I should add this is waterfront just north of Chicago and there are no hills - flat as a pancake around here. In addition, there is no parking on the road in question. These bike lanes are beautiful and probably 98-99% of cyclists use them - me included, I can attest how nice they are. To choose to ride in the car lane, knowing you will be forcing cars to either slow down or go around you - traffic permitting - may be legal, but it is rude. In an environment where there is animosity between cyclists and drivers purposefully behaving in this way for no good reason just throws fuel on the fire. When the drivers repeat the story it is not, 'this one ******* on the road today,' it is 'those damn bikers who can't stay in their own lane.' We all get painted with the same brush.
If they are going the exact same speed and impeding traffic...yes. It isn't legal for cars to "pace." Now, it happens on occasion by accident, but it isn't legal for me to decide to deliberately match the speed of the person in the lane next to me and prevent the normal flow of traffic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eden
I'll "chime back in" as I was the one to start the post. It was on 2nd Ave, downtown, which is a one-way, three lanes wide, with a painted bike lane on the left. The bike lane was wide open although yes, cars do park next to it at the far left. It was typical rush hour commute, busy but steady flow.
It was irritating, because, although traffic wasn't jammed, not going slower than a bicycle's speed, it was busy enough that it was hard to merge into the right lane to pass the cyclist taking up the whole left lane. So yes, it was irritating, even if he was allowed to take the lane. He and his partner were riding at a very leisurely pace.
I don't know if this adds to the discussion or fuels the fire.
I've found that it's often very hard to judge if somebody has behaved "acceptably" in traffic from hearing a story told, precisely because there are so many small details that affect the situation. Like how fast were the bikes going, did they change position, were they aware of the situation, were they blocking cars, how long did this go on, what were the road conditions like. I could probably defend either viewpoint quite sensibly. So I try just to be aware and flexible in my riding, help traffic flow but still stay safe, and not think much about what others are doing.
Just speaking for myself, I rarely use the bike lane on 2nd. The combination of cars parked to the left side of the bike lane and cars making left hand turns from the right side of the bike lane make it a less than safe feeling to ride there. I take a proper traffic lane whenever possible on that particular road.Quote:
Originally Posted by VeganBikeChick
Thank you LPH - that is what I've been trying to say... short of someone clearly noodling down the middle of of a busy street aimlessly, you weren't in their shoes. They may have had a legitimate reason. If what they are doing isn't illegal, then don't judge.
As for 2nd Ave, yeah - I've only used it two or three times and I'd say that bike lane on 2nd is a bad one. With the bike lane unusually on the left, though opening doors are not as big an issue (but still there) drivers really forget that it is there and especially during rush hour there are lots of people who are pulling out of the parking lane that is next to it. Add to that the large number of people who want to turn left to get up to the freeway ramps and its a quite un-nerving place to be. Ironically in serious rush hour traffic, cars on 2nd get pretty gridlocked, so you can move through downtown a lot quicker on a bike if you do use it... (which is the only reason I have used it... I was with a bunch of other people, and had I used the far right traffic lane as I would have if I was alone, they would have left me far behind) but you really have to be on your toes - because if parked drivers see an opening in the cars they will shoot out of that parking lane without looking for bikes.
Could he have been piddling around a bit, maybe - but, there are definite reasons why on that particular street one might choose to not use the bike lane.