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I should clarify - the Honda dealer told us that we were seriously exceeding the useful capacity with 2 kayaks on the roof, 2 bikes on the back, and 2 people and a dog. We verified that the carrying capacity in fact was low enough that we were pushing it. It just couldn't handle what we needed it to (and it wasn't worth that much of a mileage hit for it not to do what we needed it to....). I did love it for a while;)
Ah, ok. As a "just me" car it seems about the most useful yet smallest available. If I get to the point where I + someone need more space, SO has a Durango. Thanks for the info!
Sorry to hijack!
I grew up in Ohio and actually at 16 took my driver's ed course in the middle of winter, so I learned how to drive in the snow before I learned to drive on good weather roads. I have never drive an AWD and when I lived in Ohio only ever drove front wheel drive vehicles. The only time I had a problem was with black ice and an AWD or a 4X4 isn't going to help with black ice. I agree that it's your ability to drive the vehicle not rather it's front, read, AWD or 4X4 that makes as big of a difference. Personally I'd go for a 4X4 long before I'd get an AWD, but that's just me. I've lived in NC for the past 10 years and there is most definitely something to be said for knowing how to drive in snow vs type of vehicle you have, as I've seen so many people wreck or be off to the side of the road is very little snow and people asking about chains for tires and snow tires at just the mere threat of snow down here (not talking about the mountians though). Also for most snow a good all weather tire should be fine, but yes there are some places that you would need a good snow tire. Oh and make sure you buy the right tire for the vehicle regardless of what you choose to buy as that can make a big difference in bad weather. I have a Monte Carlo SS and the Bridgestone tires I have on it now are about 1000 X's better than the GoodYear's the car came with. Both the correct tire for the vehicle in each manufacture's line, but a huge difference in driveability in bad weather and actually the Bridgestone also preform better in good weather.
So, was the dealer suggesting you should leave one of the humans or the dog?;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueberry
I can honestly say that MOST of the vehicles we see in the ditch here are AWD/4x4 equipped. There is a false sense of security that = driving too fast for conditions for some people (AWD/4WD does not allow one to stop faster...since those vehicles are heavier they actually require more distance to stop, not less). For those of us who drive appropriately for the road conditions, we will get where we need to go by driving smart and adapting to wheel slip properly (I don't like traction control because it kicks in AFTER I have already taken my foot off the gas and changed gears. It's too-little-too-late and actually makes it more difficult for me to keep my car from sliding).Quote:
Originally Posted by Koronin
Well, yes, you see those people in ditches because they drive like azzholes. Just because you have AWD or 4 WD doesn't give you the ability to 80 mph in a blizzard.
I am surprised at the vehemence against AWD. My car is 8 years old and I have never had to do any more maintenance than whatever is routine. I guess my mpg is a bit less than the rear wheel drive version of my car, but I gladly put up with that by driving less and riding my bike. My car also has some special hill descending features, that I switch on when my driveway is full of ice... it allows you to take your foot off of the gas and the car actually controls the speed/braking without you doing anything but steering.
My first drive in real snow was in a stick shift front wheel drive car. I had to descend a huge hill, with my 6 year old in the back seat. I fish tailed all way down, skidded, and then had to drive up my street (another huge hill, not the one I live on now). My car just kept sliding backwards, into a main street. I actually let a strange man get in the car and drive me up the street, as this was before cell phones. This was pretty traumatizing to me; I went out and got my first 4 WD car by the end of the week. Maybe I'm not as tough as some of you guys, because when it's really bad out, I don't go anywhere.
This is key. And part of the issue when *some* people drive AWD/4WD vehicles. They are willing to go out in conditions that really aren't safe for any vehicle and take unnecessary risks. I've seen people I know and love do this. They get it in their head that their vehicles are invincible and that they are safe to drive faster and go out in crappier conditions than those with only FWD, simply because they have these systems. They are still ignoring the fact that they can't stop faster, so if/when they do go into a skid they are screwed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crankin
I don't claim to be an excellent driver in bad conditions, but my DH definitely is, and he's all for the AWD.
It's obviously true that there are people who will look at any safety measure (helmets ...) as an excuse to drive or ride stupid. That doesn't mean that the feature won't make you safer if you drive/ride the same way you do without it. And I'm not even primarily talking about safety ... way before that, just the ability to get from point A to point B with your car pointing forward the whole time and not having to abandon it in the middle of your lane because it just. won't. climb the hill (btdt).
AWD just means that your engine's torque is distributed among four wheels instead of two, so the amount of torque being applied to change your vehicle's velocity is halved at any wheel, and the amount of traction available to distribute that torque over the road is doubled.
When it looked like we were going to have to stay here for the winter, the first thing DH suggested was trading the Prius for another Subaru. It's true the reason we didn't get a third 'Ru was the fuel mileage. We got 25 mpg overall, in mostly hilly rural driving which is pretty much the worst fuel consumer there is (accelerate to 60, drive two miles, stop at a stop sign or stop light, repeat). But when you can't even take the vehicle out because of the conditions ... sure you're saving fuel, but it's not doing you much good.
ETA: in our eight years of two 'Rus, we never had any unusual issues, and in fact my sister is still driving our first one. It passed 150,000 miles a couple of years ago IIRC.
I live in MI and we get some nasty winters along the lakeshore. I've had FWD and AWD. I will never, ever, ever go back to FWD. I have a buick rendezvous and it handles really well in the snow and ice. I don't miss the days of white-knuckle, heart-stopping driving in the winter. Before I got an AWD, I had to park across the street from our house in the winter. My FWD couldn't make it up the little bump at the front of the drive if it was snowy.
I've test-driven the subaru as my Buick is getting way up there in mileage. We'll probably need a new car in about 2 years. (I know its early for shopping, but I like to know what I want when I need to get it). And I really like how the Subaru handled and the space it had. It's a little smaller than my Buick, but it's lower to the ground so I can put roof racks on it for the bikes. It also handles really well in the snow and if you ever have to drive along the beach for a few miles, it does well on the sand to :)
DH and I are on our 3rd and 4th Subarus, an 2008 Outback and a 1996 Legacy. Once you buy one, it's hard (IMO) to buy anything else. The AWD really does make a difference, it has a decent amount of cargo space but it's still low enough for short me to rack bikes on the roof, and it's holding its value very well.
As for mileage, I routinely get 29-30 mph on long trips as long as there are no bikes on the roof and I'm being conscious about mileage. Around town, I manage 24-26 mph, which is still quite a bit better than its EPA rating. Driving stick and being aware of starts and stops both help. Could it be better without AWD? Sure. Am I going to give it up? Nope :)
Edit: Did I mention their awesome life spans? #1 ate it in a car accident at 205K miles, #2 made it to 180K before I donated it, and #3 is still kicking at ~150K.
Some good thoughts here from different points of view. Gas mileage would definitely be a disadvantage if I went with AWD, as is the fact that an AWD vehicle would be more expensive so I would probably end up with something older/higher mileage than if I went with, say, another Corolla. I do agree with those who said the most important thing is knowing how to drive in the snow and not doing anything stupid like going too fast, and that sometimes it's best just to stay home (believe me, that's what I do if I know it's going to be really bad and I don't HAVE to go somewhere...in the situation this weekend the road conditions were a lot worse than I expected them to be and if I had known they would be that bad I would not have gone out). On the other hand, the times I had to drive in the snow with the Corolla (granted, no snow tires) it was nerve-racking sometimes because it was hard to get up hills from a stop (which is a problem here in central MA given how hilly the area is and all the stoplights on some of the roads) and seemed to slide around easily even with slowing way down and braking/steering gently. Never had a really bad skid in snow, just felt like the car did not have a good grip on the road and it wouldn't take much to get into trouble. That was the only thing I didn't like about that car. With snow tires it would probably be a lot better (I'm sure neither snow tires nor AWD would have helped much in my black ice situation...black ice is just bad news no matter what and is completely different from snow). I really wish I knew for sure where I will be relocating...that might make the decision easier. I know I definitely want another compact car, just need to figure out which one.
My old Corolla was blown off the road once in bad snow. It sucked.
Just a suggestion - I've heard great things about the Suzuki Sx4 from the few people who have them. Smaller, better mileage than most AWD, and pretty affordable.
(I'm always on the lookout here for the old Civic AWDs, from the 80s/early 90s. I'd buy one just as a "snow car.")
jessmarimba, when were you in Richmond? Fortunately, I rarely have to go on I-95, although today will be an exception. A Civic would be fine here, but I've never been to Colorado so I only imagine that it's all snow all the time.
Blueberry, I'm glad you like your Jetta TDI. I have a 5-speed manual transmission Rabbit that I love, but not TDI. VW had stopped making TDI Golf/Rabbit when I bought my car, although I looked in vain for a used one. If I ever get to the point of being able to buy a new car, my first choice will be a TDI Golf or Jetta. Great mileage, very well-made, all the safety features are standard (as are extras like heated seats!), and fun to drive.
I agree with everyone that the ability to drive in snow and ice is key. I never learned and have no reason to since I live in the south and when it snows, I just stay home (happily).
Good luck in your search, Jolt. If you don't need to buy a car since you can use the extra one, why not wait until you know where you will be and then decide? No sense in spending money until you have to, I say.
I can't add to the technical merits, but I would add that if you are interested in the AWD and can indeed wait... you might get a better deal in the spring on the AWD as there would be less people in the market for AWD and 4x4 cars and trucks outside of the winter season. If you're considering the FWD then you might find a better deal now, when there is an ample supply, ones dealers want to sell.
Shannon
Here's my two cents. I've lived in Chicago, Wyoming, Colorado and have been in Washington state for 20 years. I've done it all 4x4, AWD, FWD, studs, studless...I have had toyota 4x4 trucks, jetta and toyota FWD, subaru, SUVs. Our current vehicles are a FWD Mazda 3 and a Toyota 4 Runner, both with a set of winter wheels with Blizzaks on them.
+1 to driving skills in the snow. The biggest one is slow the F down and the people some space.
4x4, yeah sure it's great and we use ours all the time. We have weekly ski trips and ski patrol duty when we HAVE to be on the mountain an hour before opening. Where 4x4 really rules is in deep snow.On ice they are no better than anything else; ice comes down to your tires and speed. We have the crappiest plowing in the nation, and there have been weeks when 10 days after a 20" dump we still haven't gotten plowed, IN TOWN. and a high clearance vehicleis the only way to get out onto the arterial. I think for your average driver who understands how to drive in the snow it's nice but not necessary. +1 to the false sense of security that some drivers have. I do love our 4 runner in deep snow though...
FWD with snow tires on all four wheels is just fine. The newer vehicles also have traction control which is a nice features. My mazda had an AWD option, but since I was interested in mileage, I did not get it. With good snow tires, (Blizzaks rules) it's terrific, even for ski trips with 6" of snow on the road. I had a Jetta for years, in Wyoming, with winter tires and it was great, had better stick-to-the- roadness than our Toyota 4x4 truck.
Subarus. Solid, very reliable, great snow cars.. However, they have the most uncomfortable seats in the world, and not the greatest mileage. They are getting bigger every year which I find to be hugely disappointing.
Snow tires. The new technology for studless tires made of super sticky winter rubber is amazing. The blizzaks we run on all cars are amazing; we'll never go back to studs. "All-weather" is NOT the same. Good winter tires are a worthwhile investment even though the first purchase will make you choke.
Other comments:
Traction control... many of the the newer vehicles have it and it's a nice feature.
Heated seats. IMSHO, mandatory in winter. :D
Side mirror defrosters. Really nice
Block heater, if you get deep cold, you need this.
Winter safety kit in the back of the car, needed
Underscore to learning how to drive in the snow. The best car won't save you if you don't understand the physics of snow driving.
Second underscore, some conditions you just shouldn't go out in unless it's an true emergency ( like taking someone to the ER)