Daydreaming here...

Perhaps in our day we will start to see more coverage of women's road racing. Just look at the WNBA. Did you ever think you'd see such a thing when you were a kid? It's also brought a lot of exposure to women's college ball.

What is coverage of women's events like in Europe, where cycling has been a *sport* since a very long time ago? Cycling has only been a *sport*, meaning recognized as such by the Joe-on-the-street, here in the US since Lance started winning TdF.

You'd think advertisers would gladly sponsor an hour or two of hot betties in lycra suits flexing their well-toned rears ;) .

Phew...
lots of stuff here

Absolutely no reason why women's races shouldn't be the same length as mens
Elite female cyclists do the same miles and go through the same pain as elite male cyclists
No doubt
I am not saying that elite women cyclists are inferior - they are performing at the top of their ability and beyond what most of us (including many men) can hope to achieve

BUT... physiology is the limiting factor

If women could achieve the power and speed on bikes that men could then there would be some female domestiques, or lieutenants or quarterbacks (terms I quite like described on the Science of Lance) on something like the current Tour we are watching
These teams want the best - the fastest, strongest riders. I doubt very much they would say no to an elite cyclist who could fit into the team speeds just because she was a woman.
But there are no female riders

The fact is that women - despite being able to achieve incredible athleticism and power outputs and times and cover amazing distances... will never, unless/until human physiology changes, make it with the equivalent elite male cyclists.
Our body shape is different
Our fat/muscle ratio is different

You see the same thing in other disciplines too (For example... Women body builders do not build the muscle mass of males and Male runners hold the fastest overall times)

I as much, if not more, than anyone here would love to see elite male and female riders in the same races both at the front when the finish line is reached, but it just is not realistic

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Originally Posted by fixedgeargirl

Perhaps in our day we will start to see more coverage of women's road racing. Just look at the WNBA. Did you ever think you'd see such a thing when you were a kid? It's also brought a lot of exposure to women's college ball.

What is coverage of women's events like in Europe, where cycling has been a *sport* since a very long time ago? Cycling has only been a *sport*, meaning recognized as such by the Joe-on-the-street, here in the US since Lance started winning TdF.

You'd think advertisers would gladly sponsor an hour or two of hot betties in lycra suits flexing their well-toned rears ;) .

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I agree - there are alot of women out there who would watch, and the mens audience would grow too
I guess it has to be sold to advertisers as a glamour event (like the Tour has been) and then the money will fall into place for coverage
Communities have to keep badgering networks and letting them know we wnat coverage - if they don't hear us, they won't respond

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Originally Posted by RoadRaven

I am not saying that elite women cyclists are inferior - they are performing at the top of their ability and beyond what most of us (including many men) can hope to achieve

BUT... physiology is the limiting factor

SNIP

I as much, if not more, than anyone here would love to see elite male and female riders in the same races both at the front when the finish line is reached, but it just is not realistic

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If you're responding to me ... look, the physiology thing may be true, but what's the point in thinking about it? I still believe that it's better to aim high. If a woman trains with the goal of making it to the men's Tour, I am certain she will perform better than a woman who trains with a "more achievable" goal. So what if she doesn't actually make it into the Tour?

And who knows, if women keep training like that, maybe one day there will be some women in the Tour. We've seen a few women in men's competitions recently, from golf to formula 1.

I'd love to see elite male and female riders duking it out for the finish, too. But I think a good first step would be to get some females in the race, regardless of how they place. And if that's ever going to happen, it will be because some elite women say, "I can do that," and not because they say "I can't."

OK... my turn to jump into the fire.

The main reason we don't "see" much in the way of womens pro tours is that there's no money in it. The organizors barely pull in enough sponsors to put on the tour... prime example Tour de Femme (women's version of TdF). It has NOT happened more than it has happened.

Yes, there is a huge field of women pro's, some lucky enough to have a steady gig on some well sponsored teams, but the existance of teams does not a Tour make.

As in other women's pro sports, the money just isn't there or rather isn't made available. Ask 'chelle. She's pro (mtb), she has a sponsor, and I'll bet getting there wasn't necessarily an easy trip... it ain't easy out there folks. Physiology, endurance, training with high goals; all valid and anyone who has a dream of racing should go for it. But if you want to race you need to know what options are out there and plan/train accordingly.

spazzdog

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Originally Posted by bounceswoosh

If you're responding to me ... look, the physiology thing may be true, but what's the point in thinking about it? I still believe that it's better to aim high. If a woman trains with the goal of making it to the men's Tour, I am certain she will perform better than a woman who trains with a "more achievable" goal. So what if she doesn't actually make it into the Tour?

And who knows, if women keep training like that, maybe one day there will be some women in the Tour. We've seen a few women in men's competitions recently, from golf to formula 1.

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:D Me again

Ok... I absolutely agree we should set goals and aim high and think f-them all, I can do this
But the point of thinking about it is that in the back of your head you should to be aware that male and female physiology is different...

I will continue to disagree when I see a comment saying maybe we'll see a woman in a "mans" tour because I have yet to be shown evidence that women can perform at that level - if anyone has examples, please share, because I would love for it to happen

Bounce - you use golf and formula 1 as examples
With all due respect, neither of these sports fall into the category of being limited by muscles - golf relies hugely on physics and maths - formula 1 is about reaction times...

Women can race with men at club levels - and thrash the pants off most of them.
But to get into elite races you have to manage qualifying times... and that tends to favour one gender.

I teach gender issues, I am a post-structuralist feminist, I desperately want us to be equal not equivalent, but biological facts are facts - unless we either tamper with them or until we evolve

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Originally Posted by spazzdog

OK... my turn to jump into the fire.

The main reason we don't "see" much in the way of womens pro tours is that there's no money in it. The organizors barely pull in enough sponsors to put on the tour... prime example Tour de Femme (women's version of TdF). It has NOT happened more than it has happened.

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Jump away... :p

I agree Spazz, we need to find a way to make it desirable for sponsers and advertisers to want to sponser womens cycling, or place their ads into coverage...
And I suggest being squeaky wheels
Like I said in earlier posts, bug your loacl networks who provide sports coverage until they realise there is money to be made

Filthy lucre is a great motivator!

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Originally Posted by RoadRaven

Bounce - you use golf and formula 1 as examples
With all due respect, neither of these sports fall into the category of being limited by muscles - golf relies hugely on physics and maths - formula 1 is about reaction times...

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Well, they're the examples with which I'm familiar. But iirc these both happened in the last year, maybe two?

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Originally Posted by RoadRaven

I teach gender issues, I am a post-structuralist feminist, I desperately want us to be equal not equivalent, but biological facts are facts - unless we either tamper with them or until we evolve

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Maybe so, but I think the jury's still out, and may never be in, on how much physical gender differences are based on early socialization. I realized recently that my mom and I have totally different views on how supportive she was of me growing up. I know she meant to be, but in some ways, it just didn't turn out that way. Anyway, we still have moms and dads who, even if they support their daughters being active in sports, assume that the daughters won't perform as well. As you teach gender issues, I'm sure you know all about expectations and resulting performance.

We simply don't know how much is nature and how much is nurture.

Yes, as I've gotten older, I've begun to say the same thing -- that it's harder for me than it is for the guys I've met. But I can't just accept that. And in cycling, as with many sports, I have to wonder if the issue of fit and availability plays in. So many women have trouble finding a good fit on a bike, or finding high-performance equipment that fits them. In a three-week race, I wonder how much a poor fit would cost you?

And don't discount the boys' club aspect. If you yourself insist that a woman can't compete in the Tour (or whatever sport), how much harder would it be for a man to overcome his reservations and put a woman on the team?

Maybe the most elite male athletes are going to do better than the most elite female athletes. Maybe. But even if that's a given, I don't fit in that category, and neither do most of the people in the world. If someone is the type of person who likes to push herself hard (and I definitely do), setting "unrealistic" goals can be a huge motivator. I'm not looking to join the Tour (I don't even have a road bike!), but I don't see why it would hurt to have that as an eventual goal. Of course, depending on one's current ability level, it might not be a bad idea to set some intermediate goals, too.

NURTURE:

You can do it...

I believe in you...

Absolutely, lets make family time at the weekends cause we want to help you with your interest...

Girls can do anything (a slogan that was BIG in NZ in the 80's - my formative years)...



NATURE:

Men can maintain a high level of fitness at approx 2% body fat... women can't

Men have a naturally higher blood volume which enables them to carry more oxygen to their muscles more quickly... women don't

First up, I'm with Spazzdog re the sponsorship / coverage thing. Bear in mind the TdF was being run at a time when a woman on a bicycle or even in a 'sweaty' sport was just not on, so we've got some catching up to do in terms of female presence in the cycling world. Here in Oz, we're getting more tv coverage on women's races - albeit at world champion level and the like, than what we used to. It's slow going, but it is happening.

I don't agree that using bodyimage to sell a sport is necessarily a bad thing - who knows, maybe if we s@x it up a bit it will attract more spectators / sponsors?

As for aspiring to ride the best you can, yeah, fine, but part of goal setting is making sure it's realistic. There's a difference between aspiring to just participate in a race like TdF and aspiring for contention in the GC in the TdF. Also, it can take years of hard riding to be good enough to even be seen at the top. How many years did it take Robbie McEwan before he was at the forefront of sprinting - 7 or 8, I think. So it's a long road to the top....,

Lynne - yes, I've some experience in 'amateur' racing. What level are you talking about? I've been in local, state and national road races here in Oz, and state track races, though not representing any teams, state or national. I'm not good enough yet, though I managed to get about $600 sponsorship from one business last year. Not much, but every bit helps. :)

Pace differs for the different levels of racing, and whether the fields are women only, women and junior females combined, or combined men and women, and whether they are criteriums, short or long road races, scratch start or handicap start etc. As a general rule, racing at higher grades / categories eg A= best, b= next best etc, against men and in open events (state or national) are faster paced than local races. Are you talking in general, or about a specific style of race etc?


RoadRaven, what do you mean 'equal not equivalent'?

Why isn't there a completely different race for Women? It would get enough women to compete, don't you think? Besides the dirty ol' men could sit with beers and their remote controls and watch the girls ride if they did not come in person.
Why is it that men can get upset at Women's only clubs and wittle their way into them using the excuse that they are being excluded due to the sex of the club?

Perhaps a Women's Cycling magazine is what we need? Anyone interested in beginning one? One that also focuses on off season/on season exercises, tips, diagrams of proper form, etc., Nutritional info, with a chosen recipe for the month. I don't know how to get one started. I just have lots of ideas on the lay out. Advertisements do help fund, but would not want half mag. to be advertisement, but a focus on Women's Cycling would be nice.
Ya, probably dreaming, but many things we have today are from dreams that seemed less then likely to become what they are today. Flight for example, from Wright Bros. to NASA in such a short time. Women's Voting rights. Don't stop dreaming ladies, we will see Women's Pro Cycling if we have determination and persistance, dedication and vision to see it.

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Originally Posted by Tess851

RoadRaven, what do you mean 'equal not equivalent'?

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Hey there Tess
By "equal" I mean being able to compete on equal footing with men in an event like le Tour de France

By "equivalent" I am referring to the fact that for the same time spent training, same dedication, same pain, women can acieve on an similar footing but in women's races.

If we were "equal" in cycling, then genders would be mixed all the way to the top.

But we are "equivalent" in cycling, so women will not race in the mens Tour or Giro, they will race in the women's Tour or Giro.

Does that help?

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Originally Posted by AutumnBreez

Why isn't there a completely different race for Women? It would get enough women to compete, don't you think?

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There are pro-race events for women... we just don't hear much about them cause they're not worth much to sponsers/advertisers

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Originally Posted by AutumnBreez

Perhaps a Women's Cycling magazine is what we need?

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This would be great... I don't know about around the world, but the road race mags we get here are Australian, European and American and all male focused.
The mountain bike mags seem to have more women in them.
Any female fitness mags here seem to fill up with useless tips and irrelevant recipes and not focused training plans etc, let alone single disciplines for women.
There is a good multi-sport mag here that represents both genders well.

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Originally Posted by AutumnBreez
Why isn't there a completely different race for Women? It would get enough women to compete, don't you think?

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Refering to my previous post, there are "completely different races for women".

The Grande Boucle Féminine Internationale (grrls TdF) a 6 stage tour, which supposedly ran June 28-July 2 this year. The website (if you can read French) is:
http://www.velo-feminin.com/

Notice it occured the week before the TdF... anybody hear anything about it?
Didn't think so.

For the full UCI calendar for Elite Women go to: http://www.uci.ch/imgArchive/Calenda...005-FEMMES.pdf

As for a magazine... that would be great, but again it takes money. WomenSport mag started out great and ended up looking like a mini-Cosmo. Perhaps all of us that subscribe/purchase VeloNews, ProCycling, CyclingNews, etc should hit them all with an email/letter campaign demanding "equal" coverage.

I don't mean to be so harsh, but as an original Title 9 baby I've seen it over and over again since the early '70's.

spazzdog