Sodium Phosphate

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Originally Posted by RoadRaven

BikingMom...
chemists hadn't heard of it

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Chemists did not know what NaPO4 was? Now that is a terrifying thought to me. I am hoping the chemists you spoke with had not heard of it used to buffer lactic acid in the muscles, rather than not knowing what NaPO4 was.

For what it is worth, I do not have any knowledge of whether or not this will work or if it is harmful to use. Sodium and Phosophorus are consumed by us on a daily basis, that is the extent on my knowledge. I am a SAHM with a masters in Physics, so I have far less knowledge on this topic than others.

I thought the latest studies found that lactic acid is a fuel?

Thanks Snap... I went and had a look, quite a range of thoughts there - from "total cr*p" to "give it a go". I'll keep an eye on it and see if anything else is said. Can you say thanks to everyone for there input?

BikingMom - I did mean they hadn't heard of it as a sports performance enhancer. :p LOL - your post made me smile! Some people think this country is backward cause we're so little and far away... but trust me, our chemists have heard of NaPO4!!! :D :rolleyes: :D

Knotted, you're right. For a long time lactic acid (LA) was touted as an ogre, a demon, a menace. However, more recent studies have shown that lactic acid actually does help - but, your muscles reach a point when they can only utilise so much LA and then it becomes a burden.
So the trick is to increase your LT so you can use the LA for longer.

So my current training involves some rides where I work at or above my LT and this helps my body to get used to working there and to tolerate the LT for longer.

In April, my LT was measured in a sports science clinic at 152bpm.
In May, after specific training it was remeasured again, this time at 156bpm.

I was supposed to get it measured again in August, but the machine broke and the parts come from the USA and they are still waiting on them.
I am guessing that my LT (based on TTs I have done) is sitting at about 162bpm now.
With a max HR of 184bpm, training can lift my LT even further.

The Sodium Phosphate is supposed to enhance the muscles performance which effectively lifts there ability to perform above the LT. In a TT you sit at or just above your LT for the whole race. Anything to help - even if i don't go faster but have less pain cause the muscles aren't working as hard - well that would be a bonus too.

Reference: Friel, J. (2003). The cyclist’s training bible (3rd ed). Boulder, Colarado: Velopress (p.220-221)

(Chapter 16 “Fuel” – also found in Chpter 16; Protein, carbohydrates, fat, water, antioxidant supplements, ergogenic aids, branched-chain amino acids, medium-chain triglycerides, creatine, caffiene, glycerol)

The German Army used sodium phosphate in WWI, and even in the 1930s German atheletes knew of its worth. It has not received a great deal of publicity in recent years, though some atheletes have known about it for years but kept the secret.

Sodium phosphate has the potential to improve a 40k time trial significantly, alloq you to hang on when the pace would normally have you off the back and make high-intensity efforts feel much easier.

In 1983, researchers working with elite runners found that sodium phosphate increased aeobic capacity by 9 percent and improved ventalattory threshold (like lactate threshold) by 12 percent. A more recent study of cyclists in Florida showed showed that using phosphate improved low-level endurance times significantly, lowered 40k time trial times by 8 percent, and raised lactate threshold by 10 percent, while lowering perceived effort. These results seem a bit extreme, but there is limited research on sodium phosphate.

It appears to produce benefits by causing the hemoglobin in the red blood cells to completely unload their stores of oxygen at the muscle. A greater supply of oxygen allows the muscles to operate aerobically at higher speeds and power outputs that would normally cause an anaerobic state.

The next/last three paragraphs in this section are about how to load with it, possible symptoms if your body does not like it and warnings to try it out well before you need it.

References at the end of the chapter that appear to support this section:

Altering cardiorespiatory fitness. (1986). Sports Medicine 3, no.5, p. 346-356

Anderson, O. (1996) Carbs, creatine and phosphate: If the king had used these uppers he’d still be around today. Running Research News 12, no.3, p.1-4

Cade, R. (1984). Effects of phosphate loading on 2,3-diphosphoglycerate and maximal oxygen uptake. Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise 16, no.3, p.263-268

Kreider, R.B. (1990). Effects of phosphate loading on oxygen uptake, ventilatory anaerobic threshold, and run performance. Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise 22, no.2, p.250-256

Kreider, R.B. (1992). Effects of phosphate loading on metabolic and myocardial responses to maximal and endurance exercise. International Journal of Sports Nutrition 2, no.1, p.20-47

Stewart, I. (1990). Phosphate loading and the effects on VO2max in trained cyclists. Research Quarterly for Exercise and Sport 61, no.1, p.80-84

Hey there Matagi - trust those references above are useful - I have still been unable to find anything more recent...



Well... tomorrow is D-Day - I am going to try this stuff out, I'll come back and give you a report on whether I think it helped or not. I have decided I see it as no worse than using caffeine which is an introduced substance to our bodies - both sodium and phosphate are found in our bodies naturally and all I am doing is increasing those levels for short term.

I see it as similar to taking extra calcium, or creatine, or iron, or phosphorous, or myriad other bits found in supplements or in the "gu" you take to help you during a race or a long ride - they all boost performance and endurance and fitness. I take none of these except calcium occasionally and caffiene as part of a day to day "addiction". I use gu on rides of over 2 hours duration - none of my rides are long enough to warrent their use. I am not taking this supplement (NaPO4) lightly, and do not take even vitimins on a regular basis - so am not a "performance enhancer junkie".

Still, I am very interested in what you may have to say - please be candid because I value all your input, both negative and positive critique.

I will start tomorrow (Monday) with low doses to get my tum prepared, and then the loading begins on my Wednesday. The TT is on Saturday...

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Originally Posted by RoadRaven

Some people think this country is backward cause we're so little and far away:D :rolleyes: :D

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LOL - lets just keep it that way...dont want the world to know what a great and beautiful country yours is or I will have to fight the crowds when I drop over on holidays from Aust.:D :D

Good luck and let us know how it all works out for you.

Trek-I HATE CROWDS-hawk

TrekHawk!!!
You a Melissa fan?
Just noticed your sig... have you changed that recently? I don't know how I could have missed it!
She is such an awesome rocker! I wish wish wish I could go to one of her concerts, but unless she comes to NZ I guess I will have to settle for DVDs and surround sound.



Well, last day of loading today - have been taking 4grams of this stuff Wednesday, Thursday and Friday.

So far no tummy probs like Squirrel and DB wondered about... except that I 'normally' go 1-2 times a day, and this week am 'going' 3-4 times a day, but its normal, just more frequent.

Still not sure if I am doing the right thing, but if this isn't right then surely having coffee or a "power drink" before a race isn't either...

I'm still interested in your opinions, even if they don't support what I have done. I was really hopoing for more feedback before this week began.

Anyway, race tomorrow, we'll see what happens.

Have a great race RoadRaven!!! I'll be watching the thread to see how it went and if you feel the Sodium Phosphate helped.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RoadRaven

TrekHawk!!!
You a Melissa fan?
Just noticed your sig... have you changed that recently? I don't know how I could have missed it!
She is such an awesome rocker! I wish wish wish I could go to one of her concerts, but unless she comes to NZ I guess I will have to settle for DVDs and surround sound.

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Yep Im a fan. I changed my sig line a few months ago. I love this song.:)

Good Luck for Saturday.

Lactic acid is NOT a fuel. it makes zero sense biochemically. I have discussed this elsewhere on this forum.

Alpine, I didn't say lactic acid was a fuel... I said it was seen as something to be avoided, but as people have come to understand how it works and builds up, people can train to be able to perform despite its presence and within tolerance levels...

Do you have any understanding of NaPO4? I would value your opinion on this, just as I have your clear explainations of LA in other threads.


Thanks for your good wishes Artisan and Trek... 6 hours til kick-off (or should that be "wheel-turn"?)

Hi Raven,

you did not bue Knotted repeated the statement about Lactate. About the phosphate, well I was skeptical but I searched pubmed:

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Since the 1930s, scientists have attempted to determine if increasing the body's ability to buffer metabolic acids will enhance physical performance. The buffer of major interest has been bicarbonate; to a lesser degree, citrate and phosphate salts have been investigated. In theory, the buffers facilitate performance by decreasing the accumulation of hydrogen ions that would otherwise presumably inhibit glycolysis and interfere with energy production or impair cross-bridge formation between myofilaments and thereby reduce force production. Literature findings indicate variable results, but overall it appears that bicarbonate salts taken at dosages of 0.3 g.kg-1 may improve performance during repeated sprints or at the end of a progressively more intense exercise test. Athletes are advised of potential ill effects of bicarbonate ingestion, such as gastrointestinal distress. Prior to applying the agents in a competitive setting, athletes should test the effects of buffers on performance during training sessions and consider the sport governing body's stand on buffer usage.

from Pubmed

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hmm... the question is where are the "loaded" buffer salts stored. in the intestine perhaps? and if so, when is the optimal timepoint to take them?

OTOH, I wonder if this really makes a difference for the "amateurs" among us. there are so many other factors playing into your performance on day X, aren't there...

Thanks Alpine... appreciate your reflection here

For me, as an enthusiastic amateaur am just interested to see if it makes a difference to my LT or to the preceived ease or pain I have in completing an intense race.

For others trialling this at a much higher level of racing I guess it will remain to be seen whether it can assist in precious seconds.

As you say - so many variables...
At the moment the weather is calm and mild - what if i battle a wind this afternoon?

How I perform toady will be different to how I would perform in 2 weeks time when I will have my period.

I have taken notes of food consumption for the past few days... and if I feel NaPO4 makes a difference today, I will try and replicate the same race (food, pre-race week rides, rest etc) without NaPO4 in a few weeks, and then again with another loading period.

Its about as scientific as I can get. I'll get back here this evening or tomorrow and give my opinion as a "user".

Did it help?
I think so… this is the first TT I have completed where I was able to sit at or above my LT for almost the entire ride.

My average HR for the race was 162bpm. My last measured LT was 159bpm. I am assuming that an average of 162bpm is my new LT resulting from specific training and not as a result of taking NaPO4.

However, the fact that I consistently had my HR sitting around 168-175bpm makes me wonder if that was the Sodium Phosphate, because although my training has tried to be specific, I have never ridden that high for so long before.

No stomach upsets (apart from being “more” regular) and no other side effects to my knowledge.

I would try this again, but I did a few things wrong in my pre-race week and on the day, so I have to get those things right too (see Racing Report forum).

Well, last TT of the season this coming Saturday.

I have some Sodium Phosphate leftover from last year's "test", and have decided to use it up this week.
I did a TT on Sunday which gives me a good indication of my current performance level.

So I'll start loading today (4 grams per day for the 3 days before race day) and see if there is a more discernable difference than my last "I think so/maybe" conclusion.

I'll keep you posted.